Left Frame Lofts

[Plutonic Panda]

It really shows how far OKC has to go when it can’t support little projects like this that are a dime a dozen in other ‘real’ boom towns. No demand for office space leaving huge vacancies. Can’t even get a downtown grocer or CVS. Completely dead CBD after 6 I observed when I was in town for the last month. Not even a residential mid rise in the works. The city has come a long way but damn.

[Pete]

It really shows how far OKC has to go when it can’t support little projects like this that are a dime a dozen in other ‘real’ boom towns. No demand for office space leaving huge vacancies. Can’t even get a downtown grocer or CVS. Completely dead CBD after 6 I observed when I was in town for the last month. Not even a residential mid rise in the works. The city has come a long way but damn.

There have been hundreds of projects like this in OKC over the last decade or so.

This project was asking for far more per square foot than anyone else is charging.

[dcsooner]

Agree, PP. I do not think people who live in OKC can see the level of absolute incompetence on the part of developers and leaders both political and business. They seem to never be capable of developing a strategic plan that will catapult OKC to greater heights. When you live other places and compare it’s staggering the difference.

[Pete]

Agree, PP. I do not think people who live in OKC can see the level of absolute incompetence on the part of developers and leaders both political and business. They seem to never be capable of developing a strategic plan that will catapult OKC to greater heights. When you live other places and compare it staggering the difference.

You have to compare OKC to peer cities, not DC or L.A.

As for incompetent developers, these are people investing heavily in the community and sometimes projects just don't work out. For everyone that doesn't, there are scores that do.

[Anonymous.]

Its current state of concrete gives me Stage Center vibes.

I think this project's skeleton rising up like this is a microcosm for OKC's downtown residential situation. Condos for rich people that don't want to live downtown anyways. You know who does want to live downtown? Young professionals that have 80K in student loan debt.

[Pete]

I'm sure the developers got involved with the best possible intentions but then construction costs were likely higher than anticipated and therefore they had to ask way-over-the-market prices to make the numbers work.

Hopefully, someone will take it over and finish it out.

[Plutonic Panda]

There have been hundreds of projects like this in OKC over the last decade or so.

This project was asking for far more per square foot than anyone else is charging.

Where? The renderings of this building showed a smaller but upper end building. Luxury. Where have those been built?

[Pete]

Where? The renderings of this building showed a smaller but upper end building. Luxury. Where have those been built?

Dozens in SoSA alone.

Luxury units under construction now at Villa Teresa and The Hill.

Brownstones in Deep Deuce.

Dwellings at SoSA.

Many, many more.

[BoulderSooner]

Agree, PP. I do not think people who live in OKC can see the level of absolute incompetence on the part of developers and leaders both political and business. They seem to never be capable of developing a strategic plan that will catapult OKC to greater heights. When you live other places and compare it’s staggering the difference.

this is such a terrible take it would be funny if it wasn't so sad

[Richard at Remax]

In my 5 short years of real estate I have come to a pretty generic conclusion that Oklahoma City is more of a "build it, and they will come" type of setup. It is not an Austin, or other high end condo markets, where they can pre-sell hundreds of condos no sweat. We like to be able to see it and touch it here, and not just throw money at fancy pictures hoping that's what comes out on the other end. Part of the reason why the Elliot went away for now.

LFL I think just way underestimated construction costs and we're waiting for buyers to come and help them finish it out. Terrific idea and design, just a few years too soon IMO.

[dcsooner]

this is such a terrible take it would be funny if it wasn't so sad

Certainly not funny but I would categorize the number of sustained economic misfires over decades as sad. OKC has a history of broken promises, failed projects, substandard development etc. it’s really not debatable.

[mugofbeer]

Certainly not funny but I would categorize the number of sustained economic misfires over decades as sad. OKC has a history of broken promises, failed projects, substandard development etc. it’s really not debatable.

OMG, so does every other major city. There are so many project's I've read about in Denver that have never happened and this is one of those "boom" towns. I've also seen projects that have been built, here in Denver, that were amazingly shoddy work. "Luxury" condo's were built with such cheap plumbing behind the walls that they were breaking the first winter. I saw the same thing by the dozen when I lived in Dallas.

The main difference is a much more variable economy and an abundance of private capital funds, venture capital and angel capital in those larger cities that isn't really available in OKC.

[Plutonic Panda]

Dozens in SoSA alone.

Luxury units under construction now at Villa Teresa and The Hill.

Brownstones in Deep Deuce.

Dwellings at SoSA.

Many, many more.

Those really aren’t anything exceptional except for the cool homes in Sosa. But those aren’t like the building proposed here. These small little luxury buildings are really something that adds cool elements to a city. Then we have cool developments like the Townhomes on grand which are a league of their own and just can’t seem to get off the ground. That’s all I’m saying.

PS, Sosa is a cool district but it is really sporadic in terms of development. It will take decades to fill at least if the current rate doesn’t increase faster in regards to new developments.

[Pete]

Those really aren’t anything exceptional except for the cool homes in Sosa. But those aren’t like the building proposed here. These small little luxury buildings are really something that adds cool elements to a city. Then we have cool developments like the Townhomes on grand which are a league of their own and just can’t seem to get off the ground. That’s all I’m saying.

PS, Sosa is a cool district but it is really sporadic in terms of development. It will take decades to fill at least if the current rate doesn’t increase faster in regards to new developments.

6100 Grand is priced extremely high as well. Just because a couple of developers don't budget properly is not in any way an indictment on everything else going on in OKC.

The fact they are even trying is a very good sign IMO.

There are tons of examples of positives -- no need to focus on the tiny percent that don't work out for various reasons.

[BDP]

You have to compare OKC to peer cities, not DC or L.A.

And, even if you do, it's not always as rosy as it seems in those top tier cities. A lot of those new luxury condos in major cities remain unsold. Once they made it harder for foreign plutocrats to launder money through US real estate, the demand for high end luxury condos slowed up a bit.

[Plutonic Panda]

6100 Grand is priced extremely high as well. Just because a couple of developers don't budget properly is not in any way an indictment on everything else going on in OKC.

The fact they are even trying is a very good sign IMO.

There are tons of examples of positives -- no need to focus on the tiny percent that don't work out for various reasons.

I understand there is a lot of positive things happening around the metro. It’s great but let’s also keep perspective.

OKC still doesn’t have a single lifestyle center and almost every other city that has had its share of projects gone south already has these options.

Tuscana, UNP, Shoppes at Spring Creek, Bricktown Village, Lower Bricktown development, urban renewal, urban renewal v2 we just had in 2010s, and still it seems almost very really nice high end condo project doesn’t happen or gets postponed. Glimcher development in Nichols Hills has been scaled way back.

Of course there are exceptions but that seems to be what it is in OKC whereas in other cities it’d be the rule. This is the important thing to keep in mind, IMO. You can give a million explanations for each project I listed but it always seems like something happens that ruins unique projects in OKC. It’s slowly changing for the better and I recognize that:

I’ve looked at models for this development and 6100 grand and those are truly amazing developments in a league that isn’t offered in OKC right now. I’m saying Oklahomans seem to be cheap.

My comments aren’t intended to be negative but rather stating my observations that the city has a long ways to go even throughout all the progress it’s made.

If Chisholm Creek and Oak are built as proposed and all the current proposed projects in the pipeline really come through then it should catapult the city into a new league. If Stitt makes good on his promise of OK being a top ten state which would require a massive investment in state infrastructure it will also help a ton. Things look good ahead. That’s for sure.

[Pete]

^

OKC "has a long way to go" because one, small ill-conceived condo project stalled?

You are really reaching.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ that is not my point. I don’t know how else to phrase it.

[dankrutka]

The growth in OKC over the last 25 years is nothing short of astounding. OKC really was an undesirable city in the mid-1990s. Growing up in Tulsa, we saw it as far inferior... and it was in many ways. I used to joke that OKC's logo should just be a strip mall. Now, it has a good restaurant and bar scene, a freakin' NBA team, downtown amenities (library, ball park, canal, arena, two parks) and improved walkability and urbanism in the core. Midtown was just coming up when I moved there a decade ago and it's growth has been pretty impressive. I have brought people up from DFW numerous times who are just blown away by OKC's districts and offerings. Part of this is probably low expectations. And, of course, OKC has shortcomings in a lot of areas and a long way to go to be a great city, but it's in a totally different tier than it was previously. I say all this as someone who posts a lot of critiques and still think OKC allows a select few to make bad decisions for everyone else. These posts highlighting OKC's failures in such a dramatic way read as ahistorical and seem to be more personal. It's fine if you've had frustrating experiences with OKC, but people are going to push back on these broad/vague negative narratives.

[hoya]

There are only so many people in OKC who 1) want to live downtown, and 2) can afford a $500K+ condo/townhouse. Virtually all of the for-sale housing available downtown right now is in that price range.

I get that the price of land downtown is high, and so new construction will be high. But I think developers should make an effort to redevelop downtown-adjacent neighborhoods (like west of Classen between Linwood and Main) where land can probably be had for far more affordable prices. If they'd target the $250K price range, they could get a lot more buyers. We need a larger number of people living near downtown to support things like a grocery store, and other day-to-day shopping. Those kinds of normal everyday services would then establish themselves and would make downtown a more convenient place to live.

[Pete]

^

There is tons of renovation and new housing development in the Classen-10-Penn area and most of it is pretty reasonable. Same with Jefferson Park and north Mesta Park. Tons of neighborhoods on either side of Classen, too.

Here is a nicely restored house in C10P for $230K: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1...21858149_zpid/



You are never going to get really nice, new construction downtown for a reasonable price, either for purchase or rent. That ship has long since sailed.

If you are willing to be a mile or 2 or 3 away and/or not have everything already done, then there are loads of decent options.

[hoya]

^

There is tons of renovation and new housing development in the Classen-10-Penn area and most of it is pretty reasonable. Same with Jefferson Park and north Mesta Park. Tons of neighborhoods on either side of Classen, too.

Here is a nicely restored house in C10P for $230K: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1...21858149_zpid/



You are never going to get really nice, new construction downtown for a reasonable price, either for purchase or rent. That ship has long since sailed.

If you are willing to be a mile or 2 or 3 away and/or not have everything already done, then there are loads of decent options.

I'm not really talking about new construction downtown. What I'm saying is, you are probably going to get a lot more buyers for properties like the ones you mentioned than you are something like Left Frame Lofts. There's no reason you couldn't construct a row of townhomes on a vacant lot a mile or so from downtown, and keep the prices competitive with other areas of OKC.

[Pete]

^

And that is absolutely happening.


I lived in SoSA when I first moved back and liked it, but no way were the prices downtown worth the cost to me when I could buy a great, completely remodeled home just a few minutes away for less than $250K. And my house sits on 1/3rd an acre overlooking a city park, 2-car garage, etc.. Can be anywhere in the core in under 10 minutes.

There are a limited number of people that are going to pay 2 and 3X the cost of comparable housing just 1-3 miles away; or live farther out and just make the easy drive into the core.

Personally, I didn't find that many benefits to living right downtown because you still had to drive to work, the grocery store, to meetings, to meet friends, etc. It was nice to be able to walk places but I still walk all over downtown, I just start those trips with a short and easy car ride.

[Teo9969]

^

And that is absolutely happening.


I lived in SoSA when I first moved back and liked it, but no way were the prices downtown worth the cost to me when I could buy a great, completely remodeled home just a few minutes away for less than $250K. And my house sits on 1/3rd an acre overlooking a city park, 2-car garage, etc.. Can be anywhere in the core in under 10 minutes.

There are a limited number of people that are going to pay 2 and 3X the cost of comparable housing just 1-3 miles away; or live farther out and just make the easy drive into the core.

Personally, I didn't find that many benefits to living right downtown because you still had to drive to work, the grocery store, to meetings, to meet friends, etc. It was nice to be able to walk places but I still walk all over downtown, I just start those trips with a short and easy car ride.

^

And that is absolutely happening.


I lived in SoSA when I first moved back and liked it, but no way were the prices downtown worth the cost to me when I could buy a great, completely remodeled home just a few minutes away for less than $250K. And my house sits on 1/3rd an acre overlooking a city park, 2-car garage, etc.. Can be anywhere in the core in under 10 minutes.

There are a limited number of people that are going to pay 2 and 3X the cost of comparable housing just 1-3 miles away; or live farther out and just make the easy drive into the core.

Personally, I didn't find that many benefits to living right downtown because you still had to drive to work, the grocery store, to meetings, to meet friends, etc. It was nice to be able to walk places but I still walk all over downtown, I just start those trips with a short and easy car ride.

To elaborate on this: More people would be willing to spend $600k on a house if they could remove the $3k - $5k annual cost of owning a (second) car. That cost is the difference between a $400k mortgage and a $460k mortgage.

[warreng88]

Pete, do you know anything else about this? I drive by this every couple of days and haven't seen any movement on it at all.