RFP south of arena

[Pete]

To anyone thinking that parking is going away anytime in our lifetime, you are kidding yourself. This parking is 100% for the players and other wealthy interests to park in prime position with security. This isn't secure shade-covered parking for Joey and Kendra driving in from Blanchard.

The current parking situation for this group is and always has been extremely cramped, down the ramp just north of this parcel into the loading dock area under the 'Peake.

This parking lot will be a parking lot until everyone on this board is dead.

If you look at the plans, there is a ramp from the covered, secured parking area that leads directly to a small east entrance.

I'm sure that's a control point for VIP's and players.

[GoGators]

This piece of property isn't small. From the dems of the proposal it's around a 70,000 sq ft footprint. How big does a lot have to be before it is big enough to do something with?

[MikeLucky]

I love the development and laughed at all the absolutely predictable and inevitable negative comments on here regarding the parking. lol. Right now that land is DIRT.... so the change to a parking area is an upgrade. The complaints about the parking are just completely unfounded guys. Sorry but that's the truth. Let's look at some arenas around the country....

American Airlines Center - Dallas



American Airlines Arena - Miami



Golden 1 - Sacramento



YUM Center - Louisville



TD Garden - Boston



You guys need to find something different to complain about. I have full confidence you will not have a hard time doing that. lol

[C. B.]

If you look at the plans, there is a ramp from the covered, secured parking area that leads directly to a small east entrance.

I'm sure that's a control point for VIP's and players.

Where do you see that?

There is an existing ramp from the hotel garage.

[Pete]

If you look at the plans, there is a ramp from the covered, secured parking area that leads directly to a small east entrance.

I'm sure that's a control point for VIP's and players.

[David]

*new OKC development renderings are released*

Most OKCTalk posters: We specifically dislike this proposal for these specific reasons.

3-4 posters: I am going to make incredibly over the top claims such as insinuating I'm being censored from having a different opinion or that these posters LITERALLY HATE EVERYTHING and not even respond to any of their specific concerns at all or really add to the conversation in any way...

You could set your watch by it. Sometimes it even happens in threads where nobody is really even complaining.

[Pete]

People who don't like criticism, particularly of uses for publicly owned properties subsidized with tax dollars, should probably just stay off the Internet altogether.

This site is way better than just about anyplace where there is digital discussion about any topic.

And when it comes to things happening in OKC, it's the only place where real discussion even happens, apart from social media. If you doubt my assessment, just go read the comments on the OKCTalk social media posts and make a quick comparison to here.

[jdizzle]

People who don't like criticism, particularly of uses for publicly owned properties subsidized with tax dollars, should probably just stay off the Internet altogether.

This site is way better than just about anyplace where there is digital discussion about any topic.

And when it comes to things happening in OKC, it's the only place where real discussion even happens, apart from social media. If you doubt my assessment, just go read the comments on the OKCTalk social media posts and make a quick comparison to here.

I disagree with your first part. I don't disagree with criticism. It is just that the same people on here criticize everything, yet love on everything other cities do, even if it is the exact same thing as here. Just seems some like to complain for complainings sake. I am not a huge fan of this, but I also understand that the space is highly limited in what can be done. But I am not going to bash every project because it isn't perfect. Great is not the enemy of good.

The rest, I do agree with. Most of OKCtalk is friendly and very knowledgeable. I meant no personal offense to anyone. Just that this is a tricky spot to develop, so I am not sure what people were expecting.

[Pete]

It is just that the same people on here criticize everything, yet love on everything other cities do, even if it is the exact same thing as here. Just seems some like to complain for complainings sake.

I don't know anyone here who fits that description.

And earlier, you made the "this board" generalization even though we have thousands of posters and tens of thousands of readers.


You are criticizing specific comments by specific people with a very general condemnation and not providing specifics.

That's never going to go very far as a debate tactic.

[shawnw]

With regard to the size of this parcel, you could easily fit a tower on this site. Just saying. You don't need a ton of space for a dense offering. Now don't take this to mean that I'm advocating to build a tower here instead. I LIKE the notion of a Thunder Alley here, and am cool with the west half. My main concern with the parking is that there are/will be two garages on the flanks of this lot with thousands of spots, and if "the boulevard" is going to be the kind of road we want long term there should be a structure on the corner of EKG and the B. I also get that the surface lot can later be upgraded. Agree and I hope that happens, but we all know once a parking lot goes in, it's DAMNED HARD to replace it (market forces wise), otherwise we'd have something on the old dealership site to the west of the arena already. Also IDGAF what the other cities are doing around their arenas. This is my city so I care.

[onthestrip]

this is such a home run

Then surely they dont need any TIF money? Home runs usually dont need subsidies. Places where nothing would ever happen without subsidies need subsidies, not the front door of an NBA arena.

[baralheia]

What would you do with this space? Honestly, it is a teeny, tiny spot with tight entrances. It is a waste of space in general that should not exist as it.

The west end of the property is fine. I kinda dig the super polished basketball idea... I imagine once it's built, it'll be super popular to visitors but highly divisive to locals, not unlike Chicago's Cloud Gate sculpture in Millennium Park. The restaurants are honestly fine too, and make a lot of sense to me for the area. Hopefully they'll be open regularly and not just on home game/event nights.

The east end of the property, however, is the only part I dislike. In Pete's post (#238) above, he states that the east end of the property is encumbered by utility easements, so not a lot can be done here... but I still fully believe that a parking lot isn't the best use of this corner. Because of the utility easements, a full-on building is a no-go and I get that, but I'm sure they could have done something like a basketball practice court (either in addition to or replacement of the practice court at Reno & Hudson), or maybe some sort of temporary vendor or food truck court (maybe with some additional screening and/or temporary, moveable structures, like a smaller version of Bleu Garten). I want to see an outside-the-box idea like that for that corner. You want something that will draw people to that corner and activate it, something that makes it look more substantial and alive than unoccupied, parked cars butting up against a highly visible, busy intersection. This is especially important considering the sheer amount of parking that will be available nearby once this project is completed.

Basically, I have no doubt that this development will be successful - but I strongly wish that more thought had gone into ways to activate the eastern end of the property and make it both useful and interesting.

[Laramie]

Temporary vendor or Food court: A food court would cut into the Thunder's concessions inside the arena.

[BoulderSooner]

that ramp will no longer serve any prupose that entire corner will be a new entrance and plaza to the peake with maps 4 dollars .. and the loading docks will become covered ..

that is even listed in the pics you posted ..

[Pete]

^

I realize that, just saying that the secure parking area will have almost direct access to the east entrance.

[dankrutka]

It is just that the same people on here criticize everything, yet love on everything other cities do, even if it is the exact same thing as here. Just seems some like to complain for complainings sake.

To second Pete's point, I'll just point out that I think my point is that this is way off base. OKCTalk posters are pretty well versed in quality urban design. Please show us posts where OKCTalk posters praised urban parking lots in other cities. You can't. When a quality urban proposal is posted here it receives praise. When a development that is about to be subsidized by taxpayers in an area that's already been heavily subsidized by taxpayers has bad urban design, it receives criticism.

And, to Pete's point, there's no question the dialogue here is much better than elsewhere online. It's why I've been posting here for a decade. Even though we may disagree, it's generally educational and civil (save the politics section).

[dankrutka]

The complaints about the parking are just completely unfounded guys. Sorry but that's the truth. Let's look at some arenas around the country....

Unfounded except by the standards of quality urban design that are the basis for entire fields of practice, but I do appreciate you finding examples of other cities with poorly placed surface parking too. It's not just OKC for those posters that were sensitive to the design criticism. I live in Dallas and have long criticized the parking oasis around American Airlines Arena that leaves that entire area dead when there's not an event. They have been densifying that area (with parking garages prioritized, of course), but the entire design was poor from the beginning.

[jn1780]

I don't have a problem with the parking, but if the tenant of the Arena has a problem with parking, why wasn't this addressed with the MAP's 4 proposal? The parking lot should be part of the arena.

[Canoe]

People who don't like criticism, particularly of uses for publicly owned properties subsidized with tax dollars, should probably just stay off the Internet altogether.

This site is way better than just about anyplace where there is digital discussion about any topic.

And when it comes to things happening in OKC, it's the only place where real discussion even happens, apart from social media. If you doubt my assessment, just go read the comments on the OKCTalk social media posts and make a quick comparison to here.

Thank you for your work Pete

[baralheia]

Temporary vendor or Food court: A food court would cut into the Thunder's concessions inside the arena.

If owned and operated by the Thunder, that operation would become part of the total concession revenue stream. Configure it like Bleu Garten, where beverage sales are done directly so they get the majority of that revenue. The food could either run by the Thunder's concessionaires or food trucks could pay for the privilege of a spot. Or chill things way down and just do a biergarten or something like that.

BTW, when I say vendors, I don't mean just food/beverage ops - that could also be used for team merchandise and related vendors, kinda like a little festival sort of thing. It's a decent amount of space that could be used for this purpose.

Hell, you could probably even turn part of that corner into greenspace... a small park or gardens that looks visually interesting, especially from the sidewalk and street, but something that isn't intended to compete with MBG/Scissortail. Maybe even put a smaller, semi-permanent monument or something - something that can be moved easily by truck if the underground utilities need to be accessed.

I'm sure there are plenty of other options, but those are some of the first that come to my mind for a better way to activate that space than a parking lot. The key is thinking outside the box for an awkward parcel on a busy corner.

[Pete]

Thank you for your work Pete

You're very welcome and of course, this is all a labor of love.

I just get a bit prickly when people start ranting about "this board" like thousands of interested and relatively well-informed people are some sort of monolithic body. No question there is some groupthink here but generally speaking, this is the only place where people who care about OKC can come and have an educated discussion.

Criticism and a certain amount of negativity is part and parcel of any digital discussion and for civility and fair-mindedness I'll stack this site up against virtually anywhere on the 'net, regardless of topic. I've seen toy railway sites that are far more acrimonious and mean-spirited.


I'm proud of this site and know that is very good for this community. There are many cities of our approximate size that do not have anything approaching the resources offered here.

[OKC Guy]

Pete,

Concur. Really awesome website full of information and discussion.

Basically we have a never ending townhall when it comes to discussions. No city is perfect and no city ever has everything everyone wants. This is a great place to learn about our city and I love our city even with its warts. The people are what makes a city warm and welcoming and we are second to none when it comes to hospitality and friendly people.

[Pete]

And even by OKC standards... Just take a look at Nextdoor.com sometime. Holy cow, tons of angry, hateful, judgemental and paranoid people.

And if you want a real shock, read the comments any social media posts from the Oklahoman or one of the local TV stations. It will make you feel much worse about people here.


And while we are on this topic... There is virtually no watchdog in the local press; in fact, the opposite is true. Look at the editorials and features run and everything is in lockstep with people of power and authority.

I am the most positive, OKC-loving person you will ever meet and yet fell compelled to raise issues and often investigate them, and for that I often get branded a 'hater' by those who are protecting their very safe turf.

There is a very weird and IMO a very unhealthy mentality of the populace here, in that any disagreement or challenge to the status quo makes everyone so uncomfortable, there is almost always a backlash. And frankly, that's the epitome of a small town and completely contrary to the aspirations people in power say they want. But what is really desired is to hold onto their power and not be questioned.

A big part of growing up as a community and truly moving forward is casting off the old way of doing things. And this site goes a long way toward bringing the bigger issues to light and having a broad public dialog not being controlled by a few rich people.

[HOT ROD]

What would you do with this space? Honestly, it is a teeny, tiny spot with tight entrances. It is a waste of space in general that should not exist as it.

Oh you ask? well I would eliminate the sea of parking and "plaza" and fill that area with retail buildings one or two floors with the fronts facing the boulevard, creating a themed RETAIL PROMENADE fill of bars, local restaurants, and shoppes. they should have looked to LA LIVE for inspiration and nowhere there is there any surface parking.

I personally like the basketball trophy and the retail building with the Thunder alley but in all honesty it seems like the main reason the Thunder wants this is for the parking, as others have said - when theres tons of it just south and immediately north - not to mention due west for the time being. ...

Seriously, why do we have a streetcar when we keep building developments with public money or interest that require so much street level parking DOWNTOWN?? OKC is the ONLY big city I've ever seen where this is the case.

I hope the downtown review committee approves the west end but asks for a split or more dense "development" for the east end. After all, that IS the entry into downtown for the #1 thoroughfare of the city. ....

[Plutonic Panda]

OKC is hardly the only city with tons of street level parking. You don’t have to go very far in downtown Los Angeles to find it. It’s not a bad thing.