LifeChurchTV

[kmf563]

hold on. i need popcorn.........

ok. continue.

i'm going to regret this.....

while you continue searching for the answers you will never receive, because they simply do not exist..ponder this - maybe the reason why we attend church is to educate ourselves about scripture. Not all of us go the route of complete background investigations and/or analyzing the church doctrine before we choose where to attend. Most of us also do not try to memorize the Bible before we start attending church. Therefore...it is not and should not be expected that we have all of the answers for you. If you want those things, seek them for yourself and quit asking us to provide them for you. Obviously it just isn't as important to us as it is to you. And before you begin to talk about how we can go to a place and believe in things that we aren't familiar with let me present this idea to you...I have attended numerous denominations and churches before choosing LC. To name a few - baptist, methodist, mennonite, catholic, non-denominational, etc. and I didn't do background investigations on them either - but I know I didn't agree with things I heard in the sermons, nor did I agree with the gossip that went on afterwards, and I also didn't agree with being told I was going to go to hell for not thinking the exact same way they did. But in the years that I have attended LC, I have agreed with almost every thing I have learned or listened about. The things I didn't agree with, I presented to the pastor and we openly discussed the topic until we resolved the questions. Sometimes he made sense, and sometimes I made sense to him.

So here is a question for you...before you put gas in your car, do you investigate the company that provides that gas and could you tell us what evidence they provide to back up their company creed and/or reasoning in doing things they do? I for one would love to see the documentation on why their prices are so high. No, you didn't do that? How can you buy gas from someone when you don't even know what they believe in????

Get my point?

Why do I keep coming back to this thread??

TGIF

[Martin]

while the gas comparison really isn't apples to apples since there's a big difference in where i choose to get gas and where i choose to go to church, i do see where you're coming from on not knowing church doctrine up front. it's certainly fair that some people are searching for those answers and don't have them before picking a church. i've no problem with that.

however, it has been claimed several times that lifechurch is a 'new testament church' that abides by scripture. if that claim is being made, then i don't think that it's unfair to ask those who make that claim to back it up when scriptural evidence is presented that seems to show otherwise.

to use your gas station analogy, it's as if you claim that your gas station is the best and does everything in accordance to the law. i point out some areas that your gas station may not be operating in accordance to the law. in response to that, i'm shown marketing literature from your gas station and links to videos of its ceo. however, i'm not shown how your gas station isn't breaking the laws i've brought up.

the answers to the questions i'm asking don't exist? that really doesn't make sense. for example, we were discussing the nature of salvation. lifechurch teaches that salvation comes as soon as someone confesses christ in their hearts. i showed that acts 2 appears to teach otherwise... and then... no response. that's not a question that doesn't have an answer. you may have a different answer than me, and i may disagree with that answer, but the answer does exist. i'm not saying that i have it, but there is a correct interpretation of that chapter. make sense?

i will agree... tgif.

-M

[mwmcl]

I'm not sure why the burden shifted to me to provide evidence against franchising. In all the epistles, letters, early church books, history books, manuscripts, etc. I've ever read I don't see churches operating like corporations - franchising.

Maybe the best answer I can provide for Paul is that he never spoke on church franchising because he never foresaw a day when a church would do such a thing. (I think you could substitute the term franchise and insert any number of phrases that describes the modern church and it woudl be appropriate)


To metro's insinuation... I've visited: the church, the blog, the website... I've heard Craig speak in person, I've heard other pastors speak in person. I've also heard him tell my pastor that if we'd do things like them then we'd have a larger attendence. I've spoken with family members who are on staff in various capacities at LifeChruc.tv about numerous subjects. Having said that, I believe I'm thoroughly familiar with LifeChurch.tv.

I'm genuinely interested in learning the basis of church franschising. It is uniquely American. Plus LifeChurch.tv is the closest to me in proximity so I thought I would ask someone that goes to LifeChurch.tv.

[metro]

TGIF as well.

But don't you think that even if you're correct in your assumption that Paul didn't forsee a day where churches would expand to more than one location, in which I have to disagree with, that God could have used any other messenger he so choosed? The Great Commission Matthew 28:18-20 clearly states to reach all the world. Notice how it never states how, yes it states about baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (which life does and preaches) but it never mentions a "correct method". I think that is the genius of God more than you or I will ever know in this lifetime. God is omnipotent, and omnipresent meaning he is all knowing and all present and limitless. Saying God doesn't think "franchising" as you call it, is "proper" or "biblical" defies the very nature of God. It puts a limit on God and how he can and cannot operate. The same goes with the whole Second Life and internet campuses and how God IS working in people's lives through the internet. It is yet another tool to reach lost souls. In fact, to defy how he is working is anything but unbiblical. Do you not think an all knowing God forsaw a day such as this? What about his prophet Daniel who he allowed to see the end of times? Perhaps he was just daydreaming and not really seeing God's vision. I doubt it though. An all knowning God knew everything that will happen before it existed. If an all knowing God who forsaw such a thing (franchising, church marketing, worship songs changing through the millenia, the Roman Catholic empire, etc.) do you not think he would have clearly stated "best practices" through one of his messengers, be it Paul, Matthew, Daniel, or whomever. I also remember a man name Noah in the Bible in which everyone thought he was crazy, including the "religious experts" of the time. I guess he sure showed them that God can operate using the unlikely or uncomprehensable. Just like lifechurch.tv and numerous churches across the globe operate in their own unique way. I never claimed nor does the church leadership that we're the only church doing everything right, no church is, and Pastor Craig or any of our pastors will tell you that. What you don't find at our church as I've personally found just like kmf, is that too many churches spend more time gossiping about other churches and beliefs than they do trying to grow their church. Plain and simple. Perhaps more churches worldwide should be thinking more creatively on how to reach an modern society without losing their Biblical principles. Obviously you'll never agree with lifechurch.tv completely, just as many people who don't attend your church don't agree with yours. That's okay, that's what makes us unique as humans. But obviously lifechurch.tv is doing an excellent job at reaching like minded people. You have to give it that. And I do remember your comments about the sermon I pointed you to recently. All you had was negative to say and didn't really talk about what the sermon was about or its high points. All you had was criticism.

[Martin]

do you not think he would have clearly stated "best practices" through one of his messengers, be it paul, matthew, daniel, or whomever.

so you're saying that if scripture were to lay out 'best practices' for leadership that they should be followed and doing otherwise would be going against the infinite wisdom of god. if so, then look no further than to 1 tim 3 where the qualifications for the office of elder and deacon are (among other places) laid out. each new testament congregation was independent and had elders to lead and shepherd it and deacons to help serve in an official capacity. other than the guidance from the apostles, who were divinely inspired, the congregations governed themselves autonomously. best practices are laid out and franchising isn't suggested.

perhaps more churches worldwide should be thinking more creatively on how to reach an modern society without losing their biblical principles.

i agree with that statement, but i suggest that lifechurch focuses more on creatively reaching people and ends up falling short on sound scriptural interpretation.

and i do remember your comments about the sermon i pointed you to recently. all you had was negative to say and didn't really talk about what the sermon was about or its high points. all you had was criticism.

not sure if this was directed at me, but if so you've got a poor memory. first you say that i've never bothered watching any material you've presented. now all of a sudden you say you know i've watched it but are offended at the honest critical observation i presented afterwards. in any event... here's a link to refresh your memory. in that post i agreed with much of what was said in that sermon but felt the ending appealed too much to emotion... while i aired some reservations, i wasn't entirely negative... so try getting your facts straight.

-M

[mwmcl]

Do you not think an all knowing God forsaw a day such as this?

The Lord foresaw a lot of things and that is why one of Paul's (and the other disciples/apostles) felt so strongly in the purity of the church. They knew that worldly wisdom is and would be seductive. Teaching on that very subject is laced throughout the entire New Testament. Paul constantly told the churches he visited and strengthen to guard the purity of the church from outside influence.

The Church was never intended to operate like a business or for that matter like any other man-made institution.

I never claimed nor does the church leadership that we're the only church doing everything right, no church is, and Pastor Craig or any of our pastors will tell you that.

My experience is different than yours and we'll leave it at that.

But obviously lifechurch.tv is doing an excellent job at reaching like minded people. You have to give it that.

I have on many occasions pointed out good things about LifeChurch.tv on this board and to others. And if you don't want to go back and dig through this leviathan like thread... know that I applaud LifeChurch.tv for its ability to gain influence in the lives of people.

And I do remember your comments about the sermon I pointed you to recently. All you had was negative to say and didn't really talk about what the sermon was about or its high points. All you had was criticism.

Like mmm, I'm not sure if thsi is directed at me or not. So I won't respond.

[metro]

Saw an NBC Nightly News preview that they were going to do on lifechurch.tv's Second Life campus.

[kmf563]

Is that why they were at the Okc campus Sunday? I saw the crew taping, but someone said it was for their morning show - Today I think it's called? I just figured it was about the new Albany NY campus.

[Martin]

awww, metro... you posted untrue things about me and didn't even bother to say, 'my bad' or anything. : (

-M

[jbrown84]

Let us know when it's going to air, metro.

[metro]

I will if I hear anything more jbrown, that's all I've heard so far. and mmm, my bad

[metro]

lifechurch.tv will be on nbc nightly news tonight, i believe it comes on here in a few minutes at 5:30pm CST

[mwmcl]

Metro (or anyother LifeChurch.tv member),

Were you pleased with the coverage of Second Life by NBC?

[kmf563]

oh crap. I knew I forgot something last night while I was biting my nails waiting for the season finale of 24!! I just tried to find the video of it but had no luck and my patience wore out. I found the story, but no video. Anybody have a quick link to watch this?

I thought the written story focused more on the controversy of lifechurch more than it did on the second life website.

[mwmcl]

Any new awesomeness that LifeChurch.tv is responsible for lately?
I'm kidding of course, but I do miss the weekly updates on everything from websites to billboards to baptisms to music selection.

Maybe a question: Is it true that the Tulsa branch played 'Sexy Back' during its annual mass baptism this year? It could have been last year, but I did hear a story about this recently and wanted to ask about it.

[metro]

There's lots going on as usual mwmcl. I've refrained from posting them as much due to most people blowing good things out of proportion and somehow portraying them as bad, wrong, etc. Sounds like the modern media and focus on the bad instead of the good. Have never heard about and serioiusly doubt the "Sexy Back" you mentioned but as always there is always plenty of critics of lifechurch including other churches spreading rumors about lifechurch.tv. If it were true, I probably would have heard about it, however I encourage you to contact the Tulsa campus directly for the most accurate information.

[rugbybrado]

And church corruption has been around from the very beginning so I don't think the mega churches aren't creating this particular problem.

ditto.

I've never been to lifechurch but i know more than a couple of people have. At the end of the day its a business, just look any other large churches with multiple sites -like Oral Roberts Campus in Tulsa...

These guys are building an empire of a business that sells god to people. But like you said its been happening since the beginning of time.

[mwmcl]

There's lots going on as usual mwmcl. I've refrained from posting them as much due to most people blowing good things out of proportion and somehow portraying them as bad, wrong, etc. Sounds like the modern media and focus on the bad instead of the good. Have never heard about and serioiusly doubt the "Sexy Back" you mentioned but as always there is always plenty of critics of lifechurch including other churches spreading rumors about lifechurch.tv. If it were true, I probably would have heard about it, however I encourage you to contact the Tulsa campus directly for the most accurate information.

The person that told me about it got baptised in Tulsa so it wasn't another church spreading a rumor.

I'll email her and ask her about it and then let you know. I hope the is mistaken as well, would hate for any church to make light of a holy moment like baptism.

[bombermwc]

My only issue with LifeChurch is the intense focus on the flashiness. All the videos and discussions about movies and all.

On one hand it feels like that type of church is losing part of the message in the way that it is delivered...as in you shouldn't need to watch a movie to get the sermon.

On the other hand, they have been able to honestly reach a very large audience, some of which would not have been brought to God otherwise. Just like any church, they have their strong of faith and their not-as-strong of faith.

So while it may not be what works for me (total traditionalist...choir/organ/etc...and I'm 25 folks...not 80), it does seem to work for others (including members of my family and some friends). I just wish they would tone things down some and stop trying to convert the world to their view of how it should be.

[kmf563]

Metro just made me realize I want to post something about Lifechurch over here. I have been going to the main campus for years. For those of you that have attended, you might remember a very talented guitarist named Dameon that used to play with Brian Bruss every weekend and on Wednesday nights for Switch. That Dameon is the same guitarist in the band Aranda that I have been getting votes for Lollapalooza and that had all of their equipment stolen while they were out on tour.

So, I have to say that I emailed Lifechurch when this tore Dameon apart and put a big halt to his touring plans. Someone from the main campus forwarded my email to every staff member in all of the oklahoma campuses. The only person I am aware of from that church that has been there for him is Stephen Cole. No one else was seen at this grandfather's funeral a few months ago, no one else came to his benefit show sunday night, and no one has sent him a check to offer their support. But they sure have wanted to make sure that he keeps tithing and can still fill in on the days when they need him to perform.

I am very disappointed in this church right now and can't understand why they wouldn't want to help him and his band out after everything that he and his family have done for the church. Dameon's passion in life is his music, and it's his way of testifying to the world and showing what God has done for him.

If my church doesn't help out it's members and staff when they need it the most, I think it's time for me to find a new church. I am not happy with a lot of things from this church right now.

[Midtowner]

kmf, some friends of mine had a similar experience. They were accused of some pretty heinous crimes of which they were innocent. They had been doing all kinds of volunteer ministries, life groups, just about everything conceivable. When they turned to these people and the church to get help in their hour of need, no one was there to offer support.

[jbrown84]

That's too bad. I know I don't come off as a huge LC supporter, but I am surprised at this.

[metro]

I too am shocked. Honestly kmf, I'm sorry you've experienced what you have. I knew nothing about it. I would really like to hear both sides of the story before I make my conclusion. I don't know if I consider a forwarded email a credible source of contact. I know most people at lifechurch would give the shirt off their back for a member or not a member. Many members went to Greenburg, Kansas immediately after the devastating tornado to help out and do whatever they could. The same goes for New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina with almost weekly trips there. The church also reached out to those who didn't go to church in Yukon, Bethany, and the west metro earlier this year when the high winds destroyed properties. I know it's very unlikely for the majority of lifechurch.tv members and workers to shun another coming from my personal experience there over the years. Not saying it's not possible or the church is perfect, nor is any church, but I sure would like to know more on both sides.

[kmf563]

I appreciate the apology, but it really belongs to Dameon and his family. They are the ones that were treated this way. I know for a fact that the email was sent because several people responded after the fact and asked how everything went - with still no offer to help. Now I am talking about the local staff, not the people within the church. Although I can't say I saw any of those familiar faces at these functions either. But this isn't the first time I have heard of this behavior nor is it the first time I have experienced it myself. I had a really bad experience for the first night of switch at the main campus this summer. I spoke with one of the pastors about it and he suggested I email them. So, I emailed the church about that and they forwarded it over to the person in charge of the youth and I received an email that said "we look forward to seeing you this wednesday" and that was it. So...we go to another campus for switch and like it just fine. As far as helping those in need - when were these activities planned where people helped the tornado victims? I don't remember anything mentioned in the missions listing or while we were in church. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but maybe it was a lifegroup volunteering and not a church sponsored activity? Metro - if you can find out the other side of the story, I would love to hear it. I can pm you the person's name that I spoke with about the Aranda stuff. I still have the emails at home actually and could forward those to you as well.

[pecel]

Anyone know which church they use to tape during Craig sermon and the time also?
I want to see Craig live not just via video.