University North Park

[soonerliberal]

What is the update on the Embassy Suites - Went to the JQ Hammons website and there is no longer mention of proprerty being built in Norman - Does anyone know what happened?

They are building it. It appears they are on the second or third story by now (the shell at least)

[CCOKC]

I wish someone would post some pictures here to show everybody how fast this project is coming along. It doesn't seem like the rain has slowed them down much. I drive to through Norman once or twice a week and am always amazed with just how much progress is being made.

[BFizzy]

Here are the latest plans and a brochure for UNP:

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...an_dp-0607.pdf

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...chure-0607.pdf

[BFizzy]

Basically, you can add Qdoba, DSW, and Athletic Villiage to the list.

[traxx]

So where's the lifestyle center we've heard so much about. I couldn't pick it out in those pics from all the parking. Looks to me like just a crapload of parking and strip mall stores - nothing special.

This project has really fallen short of what it was originally said to be. First it was to be the second largest mall in the country then it was to be a lifestyle center. Either of those would have at least been something fairly unique and different. I don't see that this is going to be a whole lot different than what's on Ed Noble Pkwy. But there's still time for me to be proven wrong eventhough I doubt that'll happen.

**disappointed**

[BFizzy]

There's still hope. They've only announced the tenants of around 300,000 sq ft out of the 1.5 million sq ft.

[okclee]

Count me as another dissapointed citizen. Nothing special, just more of the same.

[ouguy23]

Count me as not disappointed. I think this will be good for norman over all, especially with the conference center and other businesses not currently in the immediate area. The open air lifestyle center as they have stated before will not be built yet and what we have so far is a small portion of the overall picture. We should still be excited for this.

[oudirtypop]

Traxx, apparently, you dont know what a lifestyle center is. it is a a bunch of strip malls facing each other. The difference between a regular mall and a lifestyle is that you have to walk store to store outside and it kind of feels like old town shopping. If you have ever been to a lifestyle mall, they are very nice, lots of landscaping, small town feel, and lots of walking, but very very nice as compared to a big box mall. Now, its not feasible to fit huge department stores all over the place in a regular mall, thats why they are building the parts they are building. Also, they have to get traffic up so that they can attract the Banana Republic's, Jcrew, etc. to the lifestyle mall.

you might be disappointed but i dont think you understand just how much constructions is yet to be done and how much more there is to come. they havent even started on the lifestyle center which is going to be around 750k feet of shopping. this is a huge area and will take another 3 years to get built out. Be patient.

And this is becoming more than expected because since the inception, they have added a 15 million convention center to be built next to embassy suites. thats a big deal. not to mention, where else in the okc metro or rest of the state is there a 10 story embassy suites. that is a very nice hotel.

just be patient and remember the old saying "if you build it, they will come". Also, keep in mind there is another mile of undeveloped unplanned property to the north of this that i am sure will boom shortly after this is done.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Architecture Record - October 2006

Pret-a-Cite

Thomas Hine

Can the Main Street looks of a lifestyle center produce an instant community?

Back in the 1970s, there was a lot of talk about how shopping malls had become the new downtowns. Civic life, from which Americans had spent decades trying to escape, was blossoming anew, it was said, amid the plastic plants and the shoe stores.

Even at the time, the argument was a bit ridiculous, as anyone who tried to distribute a pamphlet or advocate a position soon discovered; retail developers suppressed the substance of public life as relentlessly as they removed old chewing gum. As for aesthetics, anyone could see that putting a fountain in front of J.C. Penney didn't make it into the Piazza Navona.

Nowadays, many people are harboring some of the same idealistic--or nostalgic--hopes for the fastest-growing retail format of the moment, the lifestyle center. This is a sort of hybrid of a strip center and a mall, with Main Street overtones. It is outdoors, with varied, yet carefully regulated, building profiles, materials, and signage that are intended to evoke a sense of organic growth over time. Parking is abundant, but usually interlaced with the stores and punctuated by landscaped walks. The projects have names such as "The Shoppes at Grand Prairie," which is located near Peoria, Illinois, and touts its Georgian Revival architecture, or "Aspen Grove," a center in Littleton, Colorado, that features an actual grove of aspens and whose buildings employ seemingly haphazard rooflines and patches of red wooden siding to resemble a cluster of barns.

Such developments usually lack department-store anchor tenants, but they give high visibility to nationally known chains--such as Williams-Sonoma, Restoration Hardware, Banana Republic, and Whole Foods--that offer distinctive products and experiences. They also include a wide range of restaurants, and sometimes nighttime draws such as multiplex cinemas and comedy clubs. Only a few years ago, lifestyle centers averaged 150,000 square feet, but those currently in development range from 500,000 to nearly 1 million square feet.

The building of new malls has come to a near standstill, while lifestyle centers have spread north from the sunbelt and are now operating, or in development, in every part of the country. Typically, they first appear in affluent, fast-growing exurban areas--one reason why per-square-foot sales at lifestyle centers average roughly 22 percent more than at malls, according to the International Council of Shopping Centers. With these numbers, it's easy to see why new ones are springing up so rapidly, and developers are reconfiguring their existing malls according to this model.

The mall, the traditional shopping center form, was based on having two or more department stores at its extremities that would generate plenty of foot traffic for the smaller stores in between. Today, although department stores aren't quite extinct, there are fewer of them, and those that remain lack allure. Fortunately for retail developers, many other retailers are familiar and attractive to consumers, with brands that span catalogs and Web sites. An outdoor center gives these brands a visible presence, and it allows shoppers to park near their favorite stores, get what they want, and get out without enduring a forced march through Macy's.

Efficiency seems to be a real advantage for shoppers. A recent study found they spend about $84 an hour in lifestyle centers, compared to $58 an hour at malls. They visit the same number of retailers, but they spend less time per visit: 56 minutes, as opposed to 76 minutes. The contemporary time-stressed consumer finds real value in being able to get what they want and get out quickly. This flies in the face of age-old retailing wisdom that says if people spend more time in a retail environment, they will spend more money. It also contradicts the rhetoric of lifestyle-center promoters who say that they are developing centers of community where people can gather day and night to enjoy unique, urbane places. The main attraction for shoppers, though, is that they can use these places like a real-world Internet that offers instant gratification.

There's no reason, of course, why a shopping center can't be both a pleasant place to linger and an efficient place to shop. Lifestyle centers offer consumers more freedom and flexibility than malls. It is up to those who design these properties, along with those who design the stores and merchandise them, to make places where people will want to spend more time.

Each lifestyle center claims to be unique, despite offering a familiar lineup of stores, so architects should benefit from greater opportunity to explore local traditions or express community values. Yet, aside from some very superficial regional differences in iconography--Wild West in Nevada, Mediterranean in Florida, or Ye Olde in Massachusetts--lifestyle centers nationwide resemble each other just as much as malls do. A big reason is that nearly all of these properties are molded by the same lifestyle: one that boasts above-average income, is footloose, and more influenced by magazines and television than by local factors.

There are a handful of exceptions. The Lab, located in a converted factory building in Costa Mesa, California, opened in 1993 and is often cited as a pioneering center. It remains atypical in courting young people as customers, and its edgy design features artfully broken pavement, weedy plants, and other markers of apparent abandonment that affirm its self-proclaimed ambition to be "the anti-mall." This aesthetic is echoed across the street at The Camp, whose angular, metal-clad buildings and an irregular plan evoke the sense of adventure shared by the center's sports-oriented retail tenants. But most lifestyle centers are aggressively genteel in their style, promising a shopping environment undisturbed by teenagers.

The traditional look of lifestyle centers means that they are far easier to plug into New Urbanist planning schemes than are inward-facing malls. Increasingly, developers are adding mixed-use components to these projects as later phases, or building apartments and offices above street-level retail shops. For instance, Crocker Park, in Westlake, Ohio, west of Cleveland, is currently operating as a 250,000-square-foot lifestyle center, with more than 60 stores and a dozen restaurants, all housed in buildings that share a watered-down Beaux-Arts aesthetic. But plans call for the development to grow to 1.7 million square feet, doubling its retail component and adding 250,000 square feet of offices and 900,000 square feet of houses and apartments. The premise, though largely untested, is that if you build the town center, then young professionals, boomer empty nesters, and others will arrive to create the town.

There's no question that lifestyle centers look more like main streets, frontier towns, and village greens than traditional shopping malls did. Architects are becoming increasingly adept at making three or four big boxes look like several dozen smaller ones. And while malls often sought to replace the old urban downtown, lifestyle centers typically seek a cozy, small-town feel. This is an easier kind of urbanism to achieve and one that may be needed in many exurban areas that grew rapidly without any centers of civic or commercial life. Still, as lifestyle centers become ubiquitous, there will be many cases where they threaten real examples of the hometown American urbanism they strive so hard to emulate.

For the moment, the lifestyle center is not necessarily a problem or a solution. It is little more than a winning retail development formula--one that solves problems for developers and tenants, and saves time for consumers. As long as its success is judged solely on sales, though, such a development can never be a real place, let alone a town center. Nobody can spend $84 an hour forever.

Thomas Hine is the author of I Want That! How We All Became Shoppers and The Rise and Fall of the American Teenager, among other books. He was architecture critic for The Philadelphia Inquirer from 1973 to 1996.

[venture]

Seems like a pretty typical layout for an area that is centered around a lifestyle center (which is where the cinema is). It will definitely bring a lot of new companies to Norman. Some impact to existing businesses, but not many - BB&B being one relocating from Ed Noble Parkway.

[traxx]

dirtypop,

I do know what a lifestyle center is and it's more than a couple of strip malls facing each other. It can be a lot more.

It's something like this:

http://personal.denison.edu/~anderso...TownCenter.jpg

or this:

http://esterofl.org/images/developer/tuscanypark.jpg

If it were just a couple of strip malls facing each other then why not just call it that instead of a lifestyle center. Lifestyle centers are supposed to be centered around pedestians not cars. In the above pdf files I see parking in the center of whats supposed to be the lifestyle center. Lifestyle centers have a courtyard with places of interest for foot traffic like fountains, benches, patios and out door cafes.

If a lifestyle center is going to be defined as just strip malls facing each other then Norman already has some: The shops in front of the East side Wal-mart and the shopping center at Robinson & 36th Ave NW. As nice as the the shopping center on Robinson is I still expect far more from a lifestyle center.

Maybe I'll change my tune once it's built and I see it. Maybe it'll still be good.

[BFizzy]

Every "lifestyle center" that I have been to, including The Shops at Legacy, The Woodlands Market Place, Southlake Town Square, and others, have all had parking in the streets between the shops. They have also all had "big box" stores in close proximity to the lifestyle center.

UNP is going to have parks, trails, water features, landscaping, etc. that all the other lifestyle centers have. It may not have all the stores that everyone is hoping for, but that won't be because the developers didn't try to get them. Ultimately, it is up to the retailer whether or not they come.

Hopefully, the UNP will land some retailers that are new to Oklahoma, but at the very least, it will land retailors that are new to Norman.

[traxx]

Legends in Kansas City doesn't have parking between the shops. And as far as retailers that are new to Norman: TJ Maxx, Office Depot, Cicuit City? C'mon. As if there isn't a Ross, Office Max and Best Buy just down the street. And Kohls? True Norman doesn't have one but when there's one just ten minutes up the road and Kohls is subpar anyway.

I'm all for the above mentioned stores having competition in Norman but not at UNP. Not after what it was built up to be. And I know you can't force companies into your development but I also think they just went after what was easy in order to fill up the space quickly.

I think we were sold a bogus bill of goods as consumers. We were fed high talking propaganda and I for one bought it to a certain extent. Look at what it was billed as when it was first made public and looked at what it's turning out to be.

Even if they would put in mall type stores such as American Eagle instead of the usual strip mall fair that would be something. It doesn't have to be stores that are completely unique to Oklahoma.

I know you guys are just trying to be positive but after what happened to lower (lesser) Bricktown I just can't hold out the same hope. Don't be suprised when you see coming to UNP Cingular, a nail salon, Gamestop, Payday Loans and Big Lots.

[BFizzy]

I'm not sure what you mean by "being fed high talking propaganda" since the very first sales pitch included SuperTarget as the main anchor. From day one, the plans included big box stores and a town center. I don't know if there is enough upscale retail out there to fill up 1.5 million sq ft.

I'm looking forward to not having to drive to north OKC or Edmond for Qdoba, Pei Wei, DSW, SuperTarget, and probably Banana Republic, J. Crew, etc.

Maybe I am being optimistic, but I also think I had realistic expectations from the inception.

[gamecock]

I agree...there are too many people out there with unrealistic expectations...the development was originally conceived as having multiple parts to it...the SuperTarget was the first component, and the second phase of stores were never "sold" as necessarily being new and upscale retailers...hopefully, those will arrive in the later phases when the development moves across the street, next to the new hotel and conference center. So far I am satisfied with what has been done/is being done. I, too, enjoy/will enjoy having SuperTarget, PeiWei, and Qdoba nearby. I am also very impressed with the overall look of the development. As "adverstised," everything is very well landscaped, and the buildings look much better than the average "strip-mall" construction. Indeed, some friends who were visiting from the Washington DC-area recently remarked that our SuperTarget was the nicest one they had ever seen (and that area of the country certainly has its fair share of upscale shopping areas). As others have already suggested, more patience is needed.

[venture]

Lifestyle center with parking along the "main street" area...

J. Preston Levis Commons

Would like to see the water/lake feature in this one that is under construction by General Growth Properties...who owns Sooner Mall and Quail Springs....

General Growth Properties (GGP)

I echo BFizzy...the less I have to travel north the better. Of course that isn't entirely good for OKC either, but having strong and growing suburbs is always a good thing. Now all we need is that idea for a massive lake on the south side of Norman to happen and this place will almost be perfect.

[MikeLucky]

you can't get the big boys to commit until you can provide some foot traffic..... They aren't going to build their exclusive stores in field and hope the customers come..... '

How hard is that to figure out... It's almost like some of you want it to fail to have something to whine about.....

[ouguy23]

I concur!

you can't get the big boys to commit until you can provide some foot traffic..... They aren't going to build their exclusive stores in field and hope the customers come..... '

How hard is that to figure out... It's almost like some of you want it to fail to have something to whine about.....

[Easy180]

you can't get the big boys to commit until you can provide some foot traffic..... They aren't going to build their exclusive stores in field and hope the customers come..... '

How hard is that to figure out... It's almost like some of you want it to fail to have something to whine about.....

See also the 9 million threads whining about Lower Bricktown....Same mentality

Would be very encouraging if some kind of exciting announcement came out soon

One big catch would turn this thread completely around

[traxx]

Alright, alright, lay off. I give. You all have convinced me. I'm so excited to not have to drive to OKC for Office Depot. I can't tell you how long I've been harboring that sentiment. FINALLY!!!!!!!!!! Norman has it's own Office Depot. Let's just throw up any old crap strip mall and just be glad that there's not green grass growing in that area any longer.

As far as the question of what I meant by propaganda...well when this first came to light a few years ago in a thread of a different title (not sure what it was called) it said it was going to be the second or third largest mall in the nation, then it was said it would be upperscale shopping now we've got Target and TJ Maxx. Woo Hoo!

And yes, you can get the "Big Boys" to sign on without smaller stores filling up the space first. That's why they call them anchors.

But all that's water under the bridge now. I'm just excited to have TJ Max, seas of parking and I don't have to look at that pasture anymore.

[MikeLucky]

Alright, alright, lay off. I give. You all have convinced me. I'm so excited to not have to drive to OKC for Office Depot. I can't tell you how long I've been harboring that sentiment. FINALLY!!!!!!!!!! Norman has it's own Office Depot. Let's just throw up any old crap strip mall and just be glad that there's not green grass growing in that area any longer.

As far as the question of what I meant by propaganda...well when this first came to light a few years ago in a thread of a different title (not sure what it was called) it said it was going to be the second or third largest mall in the nation, then it was said it would be upperscale shopping now we've got Target and TJ Maxx. Woo Hoo!

And yes, you can get the "Big Boys" to sign on without smaller stores filling up the space first. That's why they call them anchors.

But all that's water under the bridge now. I'm just excited to have TJ Max, seas of parking and I don't have to look at that pasture anymore.

so obviously your assumption is that there is NO POSSIBILITY of anything better than TJ Maxx and Office Depot going up in UNP.

Do you know something, or are you just indulging in your half empty glass of milk while you cry about the other half that is spilt?

[soonerliberal]

Have you naysayers seen the SuperTarget or the new construction going up? It is remarkable architecture with beautiful landscaping. The "lifestyle center" part will not even be started for at least a year. Just wait. It will be worth it.

[venture]

Its almost as if people expected the whole thing to be a lifestyle center...sigh.

People seem to forget that nearly every mall, you have your Payless Shoes or other low end store. Why? It drives more foot traffic...which should increase overall customers going into the higher end stores.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Have you naysayers seen the SuperTarget or the new construction going up? It is remarkable architecture with beautiful landscaping. The "lifestyle center" part will not even be started for at least a year. Just wait. It will be worth it.

It's...a...SuperTarget, a big box with nice brick, not the Sidney Opera House.