Ideas 4 MAPS

[OKCRT]

OKCTalk is a very small, vocal minority. Most people in OKC who will vote on this don't care about most of the complaints this site has. They don't care about looks, and are more function over form. I wish more followed sites like this, but most in OKC don't, and aside from a casual knowledge of Maps 4 projects, will vote for a new stadium and coliseum and not bat an eyelash.

Hope you are correct.

[Urban Pioneer]

The sad part about all this is by the time it gets to the council's public meeting, they will have already likely decided on the slate.

By the time they vote, Holt will already have the votes needed for the slate to pass.

That’s representative government though. We elect these people to represent us. It will easily pass with a majority support but potentially not without some dicension.

[Laramie]

Without our original MAPS ($89 million for arena) & MAPS for HOOPS ($90 million) extension that funded its NBA requirements; included an NBA practice facility (bare bones $10 million minimum), we wouldn't have an NBA franchise. As a facility ages, continuous renovations are required to host a variety of events.

Forbes values the Thunder franchise at $1.5 billion (Middle of the NBA pack), our ownership group isn't getting any younger; they pay $1.6 million annually as an anchor tenant, they aren't prepared to invest $135 million into an arena the city owns.

[soonerguru]

Without our original MAPS ($89 million for arena) & MAPS for HOOPS ($90 million) extension that funded its NBA requirements; included an NBA practice facility (bare bones $10 million minimum), we wouldn't have an NBA franchise. As a facility ages, continuous renovations are required to host a variety of events.

Forbes values the Thunder franchise at $1.5 billion (Middle of the NBA pack), our ownership group isn't getting any younger; they pay $1.6 million annually as an anchor tenant, they aren't prepared to invest $135 million into an arena the city owns.

I'm OK with updating the arena. Totally. But why does a franchise with that valuation expect taxpayers to fund its private practice facility? I find that odious. It will not be a publicly accessible building.

Sorry but MAPS projects should be concentrated on public, not private, facilities, in my opinion.

[Laramie]

Understand your concern soonerguru, the Thunder practice facility is a city owned facility leased out to the Thunder, apart of the original agreement with the NBA when the franchise was relocated to our city.

No difference than if you owned a house or duplex you rented out to a tenant (unless you have a specified agreement), the owner is responsible for the infrastructure & structural upkeep of that building.

[emtefury]

I have been staying engaged with the projects proposed for MAPS 4 and I don't see it passing. I feel this is especially the case if social programs are involved. Where I live in SW OKC near Hobby Lobby, I know the residents are fed with the roads and lack of infrastructure. I know the response is OKC passed a MAPS for roads, but that is a drop in the bucket. Also, living in the outskirts of OKC, a large majority of MAPS supports downtown and we see none of it. I can see many residents throughout OKC not supporting another round of MAPS.

MAPS 4 should be road improvement and infrastructure throughout OKC. After these are improvements, then talk about doing more downtown and other projects.

[jonny d]

I have been staying engaged with the projects proposed for MAPS 4 and I don't see it passing. I feel this is especially the case if social programs are involved. Where I live in SW OKC near Hobby Lobby, I know the residents are fed with the roads and lack of infrastructure. I know the response is OKC passed a MAPS for roads, but that is a drop in the bucket. Also, living in the outskirts of OKC, a large majority of MAPS supports downtown and we see none of it. I can see many residents throughout OKC not supporting another round of MAPS.

MAPS 4 should be road improvement and infrastructure throughout OKC. After these are improvements, then talk about doing more downtown and other projects.

So 10 years from now? By then, we will need new roads. It's a never-ending cycle.

[TheTravellers]

I posted this in the Aquarium thread, figured it should go here too.

While I'm all for helping out our less fortunate citizens and will vote for MAPS4 to get things like streetlights, bike trails, sidewalks, Palomar, etc., that's completely *not* what MAPS is intended for, and I wish we could've found another way to pay for all those things I mentioned, but we can't, so we had to turn to MAPS. Here's what MAPS is about, from the city's website - "MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects) is Oklahoma City's visionary capital improvement program for new and upgraded sports, recreation, entertainment, cultural and convention facilities."

So when it comes down to it, road improvement and infrastructure should not be MAPS-funded, but neither should all the social/citizenry type projects. Neither have gotten the funding they needed over the past, oh, 50 years, so we had to go the MAPS route.

[emtefury]

I understand the MAPS purpose, but should have used different language. The proposed 1% sales tax should be used for roads and infrastructure. Otherwise, I would prefer to not provide more of my money to the city through taxes.

[baralheia]

I understand the MAPS purpose, but should have used different language. The proposed 1% sales tax should be used for roads and infrastructure. Otherwise, I would prefer to not provide more of my money to the city through taxes.

If MAPS 4 passes, you won't be paying *anything* more than you are today. The MAPS 4 tax would simply replace the current MAPS 3 tax when it expires.

[emtefury]

If MAPS 4 passes, you won't be paying *anything* more than you are today. The MAPS 4 tax would simply replace the current MAPS 3 tax when it expires.

If MAPS 4 does not pass, I will be paying less in taxes.

[baralheia]

If MAPS 4 does not pass, I will be paying less in taxes.

This is absolutely true, but you appeared to frame your statement as paying more than you are today, so that's why I responded as I did. That said, "roads and infrastructure" isn't really what MAPS is designed to do, and that's why the City pushed for and got the nearly $1 billion GO bond approved for this purpose.

EDIT: Derp. You already said you know what the purpose of MAPS is. Reading comprehension fail. My bad.

[OKC Guy]

Understand your concern soonerguru, the Thunder practice facility is a city owned facility leased out to the Thunder, apart of the original agreement with the NBA when the franchise was relocated to our city.

No difference than if you owned a house or duplex you rented out to a tenant (unless you have a specified agreement), the owner is responsible for the infrastructure & structural upkeep of that building.

I agree with a majority of this post. However renters are not making money and then asking the owner to make improvements so they can make more money. They would partner together and both help pay for the expanded driveway or sidewalk. Since the renter will benefit they need to assist in paying for improvements. But I get what you are saying too this is city owned and needs fo be kept up. Image is a big deal and TV shows our city when showing a game. So if the facility looks good its a positive reflection on the city. I do think owners should chip in but since we are not looking nor getting other major tenants we have to pay for all or bulk of it. Its not like we can kick them out.

[Laramie]

This is absolutely true, but you appeared to frame your statement as paying more than you are today, so that's why I responded as I did. That said, "roads and infrastructure" isn't really what MAPS is designed to do, and that's why the City pushed for and got the nearly $1 billion GO bond approved for this purpose.

EDIT: Derp. You already said you know what the purpose of MAPS is. Reading comprehension fail. My bad.

Good point, the GO Bonds approved in 2017 addressed major streets, bridges, drainage, some sidewalks & trails--not that we couldn't use more.

An Aquarium on the I-40 front is being discussed on the Development & Building Thread forum. Gaining momentum; however it may be too late in the process to get it on MAPS 4: https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=45286 Contact your council representative if you want help drum up interest.

https://www.okc.gov/

MAPS 4 would leave the current Oklahoma City sales tax rate of 4.125 percent unchanged. Including state sales tax, the overall sales tax rate in most of OKC is 8.625 percent (8.975 percent in Canadian County and 8.875 percent in Cleveland County because of county sales taxes).

[Urban Pioneer]

I posted this in the Aquarium thread, figured it should go here too.

While I'm all for helping out our less fortunate citizens and will vote for MAPS4 to get things like streetlights, bike trails, sidewalks, Palomar, etc., that's completely *not* what MAPS is intended for, and I wish we could've found another way to pay for all those things I mentioned, but we can't, so we had to turn to MAPS. Here's what MAPS is about, from the city's website - "MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects) is Oklahoma City's visionary capital improvement program for new and upgraded sports, recreation, entertainment, cultural and convention facilities."

So when it comes down to it, road improvement and infrastructure should not be MAPS-funded, but neither should all the social/citizenry type projects. Neither have gotten the funding they needed over the past, oh, 50 years, so we had to go the MAPS route.

I am going to follow your lead and post this comment I made in the aquarium thread too.-

"It depends on how you look at it. There are some very specific special interests that obviously are getting their piece of the pie and under the guise of "economic revenue generators".

Conversely, you have a new slate of city councilors who campaigned on a promise to work on homelessness, sidewalks, transit, trails, animal welfare, mental health, substance abuse, placemaking, and reinvestment in neighborhoods outside of downtown. They were ushered in by their voters with those specific agendas. The scientific polling demonstrates that the voting public hasn't changed their priorities since those council seats changed. They have a mandate. The great debate, if there is one internally, is over projects that do not specifically address those concerns. These people waltzed into office with a mandate from their constituents and even the data from last week shows that nothing has changed with what the likely voter wants."

[catch22]

I am going to follow your lead and post this comment I made in the aquarium thread too.-

"It depends on how you look at it. There are some very specific special interests that obviously are getting their piece of the pie and under the guise of "economic revenue generators".

Conversely, you have a new slate of city councilors who campaigned on a promise to work on homelessness, sidewalks, transit, trails, animal welfare, mental health, substance abuse, placemaking, and reinvestment in neighborhoods outside of downtown. They were ushered in by their voters with those specific agendas. The scientific polling demonstrates that the voting public hasn't changed their priorities since those council seats changed. They have a mandate. The great debate, if there is one internally, is over projects that do not specifically address those concerns. These people waltzed into office with a mandate from their constituents and even the data from last week shows that nothing has changed with what the likely voter wants."

But does the polling indicate people want permanent solutions to those issues or a temporary tax meant for infrastructure. The problem is the low permanent tax rate not being enough to provide the services the city demands. This proposed MAPS is essentially spending a Christmas bonus to buy groceries and pay the car insurance bill - the problem is still on the revenue side long term. A temporary infrastructure tax won’t provide permanent funding for transit, sidewalks, mental health, animal services, homelessness, and other essential services the city needs.

[Urban Pioneer]

But does the polling indicate people want permanent solutions to those issues or a temporary tax meant for infrastructure. The problem is the low permanent tax rate not being enough to provide the services the city demands. This proposed MAPS is essentially spending a Christmas bonus to buy groceries and pay the car insurance bill - the problem is still on the revenue side long term. A temporary infrastructure tax won’t provide permanent funding for transit, sidewalks, mental health, animal services, homelessness, and other essential services the city needs.

Well arguably, all of the proposals that have been made are for infrastructure. Some of the improvements that I have been involved in require little or no increase to Operations and Maintenance costs. I know for a fact that the new animal shelter for example will mitigate long term costs as many things are being outsourced. Many of the transit improvements do not have immediate impact on O&M such as the shelters and automatic signal priority. The BRT will but presumably the initiative going to voters in March or the forthcoming RTA vote will deal with that.

I can't speak to every project but I did try to go to all of the presentations or watch them online. These questions you raise have generally been addressed in each proposal.

[TheTravellers]

But does the polling indicate people want permanent solutions to those issues or a temporary tax meant for infrastructure. The problem is the low permanent tax rate not being enough to provide the services the city demands. This proposed MAPS is essentially spending a Christmas bonus to buy groceries and pay the car insurance bill - the problem is still on the revenue side long term. A temporary infrastructure tax won’t provide permanent funding for transit, sidewalks, mental health, animal services, homelessness, and other essential services the city needs.

This is the problem I have with MAPS (both 3 and 4, but appears they've learned from 3 and 4 won't be as bad). Ongoing costs weren't addressed nearly as much as they should've been in MAPS3 and money had to be "found" to make up for it. And yeah, you can't just throw some money at social services, transit, bike lanes, etc. once and call it done, so hopefully, as UP says, that has been addressed this time around (I only watched a few presentations, not all, so I'm not aware of how each project will manage ongoing (as in forever) costs).

[catch22]

I guess I just don’t understand the binary element of this.

Why can’t this be done? This wouldn’t necessarily have to be in place of anything else, and it seems to be something that people are excited about thus potentially locking in a yes vote?

[TheTravellers]

I guess I just don’t understand the binary element of this.

Why can’t this be done? This wouldn’t necessarily have to be in place of anything else, and it seems to be something that people are excited about thus potentially locking in a yes vote?

I don't think the problem is with the execution of having both capital and social projects on the ballot/agenda/list, it appears to be political, and that's something we citizens have pretty much no control over, it's up to the Chamber, the power brokers, the Mayor, and maybe the Council.

[LocoAko]

It looks like all sixteen of the proposed projects that were presented are now on the ballot in MAPS4.

Oklahoma City Council to consider MAPS 4 package Tuesday, special election would be Dec. 10
Mayor David Holt and Oklahoma City Council will consider a potential MAPS 4 package at its Tuesday meeting, including a potential call for a special election on Dec. 10.
Post Date: 08/23/2019 2:00 PM
Mayor David Holt and Oklahoma City Council will consider a potential MAPS 4 package at its Tuesday meeting, including a potential call for a special election on Dec. 10.

The proposed MAPS 4 program includes all 16 of the projects that received a scheduled presentation during this summer’s special meetings. It would raise a projected $978 million over eight years, debt-free, funded by a temporary penny sales tax. It requires approval from Oklahoma City voters.

The MAPS 4 temporary 1-cent sales tax would keep Oklahoma City’s sales tax rate unchanged. It would take effect April 1 when the Better Streets, Safer City temporary sales tax expires.

On Tuesday’s agenda is a resolution of intent that defines the project list and budgets. Other items include introducing a call for the special election on Dec. 10, and introducing an ordinance for the temporary sales tax that would take effect upon voter approval.

The proposed MAPS 4 package is focused on neighborhood and human needs, as well as quality of life and job-creating initiatives. More than 70 percent of the funding is dedicated to neighborhood and human needs.

The proposed MAPS 4 program includes 16 projects:

Parks
Youth Centers
Senior Wellness Centers
Mental Health and Addiction
Family Justice Center operated by Palomar
Transit
Sidewalks, bike lanes, trails and streetlights
Homelessness
Chesapeake Energy Arena and related facilities
Animal Shelter
Fairgrounds Coliseum
Diversion Hub
Innovation District
Freedom Center and Clara Luper Civil Rights Center
Beautification
Multipurpose Stadium

The resolution of intent can be found here: https://www.okc.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=15024

[Pete]

Proposed allocations in millions

Parks $77
Youth Centers $110
Senior Wellness Centers $30
Mental Health and Addiction $40
Family Justice Center operated by Palomar $38
Transit $87
Sidewalks, bike lanes, trails and streetlights $87
Homelessness $50
Chesapeake Energy Arena and practice facilities $115
Animal Shelter $38
Fairgrounds Coliseum $63
Diversion Hub $17
Innovation District $71
Freedom Center and Clara Luper Civil Rights Center $25
Beautification $30
Multipurpose Stadium $37

[Pete]

Click here to view or download the file directly.

[AnguisHerba]

Proposed allocations in millions

Parks $77
Youth Centers $110
Senior Wellness Centers $30
Mental Health and Addiction $40
Family Justice Center operated by Palomar $38
Transit $87
Sidewalks, bike lanes, trails and streetlights $87
Homelessness $50
Chesapeake Energy Arena and practice facilities $115
Animal Shelter $38
Fairgrounds Coliseum $63
Diversion Hub $17
Innovation District $71
Freedom Center and Clara Luper Civil Rights Center $25
Beautification $30
Multipurpose Stadium $37

$20M of the $87M is for bike lanes. Seems like a disappointment to me. $37M for a stadium is too much, and providing anything for the practice facility seems inequitable (I know it is city owned). Just my opinion.

[Pete]

So basically, whoever decided that those 16 projects deserved an official presentation also decided the final slate.