Aquarium

[soonerguru]

Real question. How world class would a $100-150M aquarium be? I have no idea how much other world class aquariums have cost. As discussed in other threads, if we build an aquarium, we should do it right...does $100M get us there?

No. This is a fantasy. The best aquarium I’ve been to, in Baltimore, would cost half a billion to build, if not more. This is marketing and PR sizzle.

[hfry]

I do find it interesting that the mayors response was " well the zoo hasn't its own funding source" which completely ignores that so does the fairgrounds. So does Embark, even though it's well below the bar of what it's being asked to do. So many of our projects have had funding sources but some like the white water facility didn't and then we had to give them more money after their first shortfall.

[Laramie]

Sounds as though they are ready to go forward with the project proposals.

We'll have 2.5 months to look at possible alternatives to either get this on the ballot or funding through the Zoo's sources.

[Timshel]

just trying to get exposure for a popular project.

Fair enough, but let's not act like this timing is just a coincidence. And assuming you're basing the project's popularity on the OKCTalk story's reception on Twitter/Instagram (and I personally hesitate to use social media response as a proxy for voting data or the entire populus' position more generally), it sounds like that may not align with the project's popularity at the voting booth, which is all that matters.

But more importantly, I should have clarified that I wasn't referring to you, but to whomever at the zoo pushed the story out. And if it took you going to them for the zoo to have the idea to appeal to the public after not making the initial slate of projects then they clearly didn't have a chance in the first place and were prepared to only make a half-hearted attempt to push this through, compared to most, if not all, of the other projects that made the initial cut being supported by fairly sophisticated and coordinated campaigns to make them happen (and even some of those do not feel totally secure in their place on the MAPS4 slate). (Sorry for the insanely long sentence - too tied up at work to make this sound better. )

[OKCRT]

No. This is a fantasy. The best aquarium I’ve been to, in Baltimore, would cost half a billion to build, if not more. This is marketing and PR sizzle.

Yes,do it right or don't do it at all. Scrap the crap and build a world class attraction that the city can be proud of for years to come and something that the people actually want.

[soonerguru]

Is this actually a "new story," as it is being presented? Is this not the same proposal that failed to get a hearing, or has something changed to make it newsworthy? I recall some discussion last spring on the MAPS ideas thread but didn't see much excitement about it.

[Pete]

Fair enough, but let's not act like this timing is just a coincidence. And assuming you're basing the project's popularity on the OKCTalk story's reception on Twitter/Instagram (and I personally hesitate to use social media response as a proxy for voting data or the entire populus' position more generally), it sounds like that may not align with the project's popularity at the voting booth, which is all that matters.

But more importantly, I should have clarified that I wasn't referring to you, but to whomever at the zoo pushed the story out. And if it took you going to them for the zoo to have the idea to appeal to the public after not making the initial slate of projects then they clearly didn't have a chance in the first place and were prepared to only make a half-hearted attempt to push this through, compared to most, if not all, of the other projects that made the initial cut being supported by fairly sophisticated and coordinated campaigns to make them happen (and even some of those do not feel totally secure in their place on the MAPS4 slate).

To your first point, we have no idea about voting popularity for this project. The only evidence we have is the comments here and on social media, and it's overwhelmingly positive.

The real question is why this project was pushed aside early in the process (as Mayor Holt just tweeted) and long before the public presentations.

And since we are a democracy, Holt is an elected official, this involves a lot of tax dollars, and Holt himself promoted the process as being highly transparent, answered are owed.

[Pete]

Is this actually a "new story," as it is being presented? Is this not the same proposal that failed to get a hearing, or has something changed to make it newsworthy? I recall some discussion last spring on the MAPS ideas thread but didn't see much excitement about it.

Until they got a very short time at the end of the last public MAPS meeting, I personally didn't know any of the details or that the zoo director was so heavily behind this.

That meeting was 16 days ago.

[Timshel]

My impression is that it's further details of the proposal that failed, being presented by OKCTalk to shed light on a project that didn't make the cut and by the zoo in an attempt to create some grassroots demand for the project, which Holt has re-affirmed is not going to happen. Not terribly newsworthy in my mind as the story currently stands. The photos/renderings provided in the story look like they probably would have been included in the full presentation presented by the zoo to city council had they had the opportunity.


As a sidebar, I really hope we get Ed Shadid advocating for this shiny downtown toy and railing against the city council for shadily choosing projects to improve basic city services designed to help those in most need. We will have then truly entered the upside down. (This is a joke and not to be taken seriously.)

(Pete beat me to the punch, Soonerguru, but I'll leave my post as-is.)

[soonerguru]

To your first point, we have no idea about voting popularity for this project. The only evidence we have is the comments here and on social media, and it's overwhelmingly positive.

The real question is why this project was pushed aside early in the process (as Mayor Holt just tweeted) and long before the public presentations.

And since we are a democracy, Holt is an elected official, this involves a lot of tax dollars, and Holt himself promoted the process as being highly transparent, answered are owed.

Were these renderings presented earlier? If not, why? Did they just have these renderings done? If so, why wait until the projects are already decided before releasing them? None of this makes any sense.

If as you point out, public response is so positive, then why not create public support before the presentations were ever made to council?

[soonerguru]

To your first point, we have no idea about voting popularity for this project. The only evidence we have is the comments here and on social media, and it's overwhelmingly positive.

The real question is why this project was pushed aside early in the process (as Mayor Holt just tweeted) and long before the public presentations.

And since we are a democracy, Holt is an elected official, this involves a lot of tax dollars, and Holt himself promoted the process as being highly transparent, answered are owed.

Were these renderings presented earlier? If not, why? Did they just have these renderings done? If so, why wait until the projects are already decided before releasing them? None of this makes any sense.

If as you point out, public response is so positive, then why not create public support before the presentations were ever made to council?

[OkiePoke]

No. This is a fantasy. The best aquarium I’ve been to, in Baltimore, would cost half a billion to build, if not more. This is marketing and PR sizzle.

Monte Ray Aquarium was built for about $55M. In today's dollars, that is about $150M.

Fairly recent study for an aquarium came in at ~$100M.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonv...uarium-at.html

The Zoo mentioned it would spend their own capital on the project as well. Not sure of how much that would be, but I assume that is adding to the $100M-$150M. A $200M aquarium would be world class.

[Timshel]

T The only evidence we have is the comments here .

I'm inclined to believe UP when he says he has knowledge of the results of the polling data. That being said, I can totally empathize with questioning the methodology of the polls, but are you really asserting that you believe the chamber, our chamber, would try to skew the polls away from this aquarium and towards helping accused criminals? I think not.

[jedicurt]

No. This is a fantasy. The best aquarium I’ve been to, in Baltimore, would cost half a billion to build, if not more. This is marketing and PR sizzle.

that aquarium was build for 21.3 Million in 1981, based upon every inflation calculator out there... the most i saw was saying that would be about $80 Million in todays dollars. now i'm certain they have probably done some renovations since then... but i think 150M would get us a pretty dang good one

[soonerguru]

Monte Ray Aquarium was built for about $55M. In today's dollars, that is about $150M.

Fairly recent study for an aquarium came in at ~$100M.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonv...uarium-at.html

The Zoo mentioned it would spend their own capital on the project as well. Not sure of how much that would be, but I assume that is adding to the $100M-$150M. A $200M aquarium would be world class.

As Ed Shadid has pointed out numerous times, the Zoo already receives a permanent funding source through our city sales tax. I'm a member of Zoo Friends, and support the Zoo, but I'm intrigued by what appears to be a last-minute effort to hurt MAPS 4 and / or the mayor.

[soonerguru]

Monte Ray Aquarium was built for about $55M. In today's dollars, that is about $150M.

Fairly recent study for an aquarium came in at ~$100M.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonv...uarium-at.html

The Zoo mentioned it would spend their own capital on the project as well. Not sure of how much that would be, but I assume that is adding to the $100M-$150M. A $200M aquarium would be world class.

As Ed Shadid has pointed out numerous times, the Zoo already receives a permanent funding source through our city sales tax. I'm a member of Zoo Friends, and support the Zoo, but I'm intrigued by what appears to be a last-minute effort to hurt MAPS 4 and / or the mayor.

[David]

Well, the response by posters on here is pretty overwhelming definitely. And it is possible that the general public would be all for this. I would love it personally. But the majority of "likely voters" has very clearly stated they do not want more MAPS investment downtown and they want the human needs crisis addressed.

The actual MAPS voter is not terribly emblematic of the average public.

Was the polling the Chamber was working off of for this decision just about investments downtown and not specific projects, incidentally? Things can change greatly once the public sees real projects to get excited by. I personally wasn't particularly excited by the aquarium idea at all until I saw the plans and the canal integration.

[jedicurt]

As Ed Shadid has pointed out numerous times, the Zoo already receives a permanent funding source through our city sales tax. I'm a member of Zoo Friends, and support the Zoo, but I'm intrigued by what appears to be a last-minute effort to hurt MAPS 4 and / or the mayor.

amazing how seeing the same situation with different results. i'm intrigued that an organization such as the zoo, feels that the only way to actually get heard (after getting ignored in the MAPS meetings) is to do something like this after the city council presumably moved up the date for finalizing projects by several weeks

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm inclined to believe UP when he says he has knowledge of the results of the polling data. That being said, I can totally empathize with questioning the methodology of the polls, but are you really asserting that you believe the chamber, our chamber, would try to skew the polls away from this aquarium and towards helping accused criminals? I think not.

I have seen multiple scientific polls this go around. In fact, there has been more internal data about what the likely voter thinks than anytime previously before that I can recall. There is a extremely consistent thread between the polls that is distinctly against additional downtown investment and strongly for human needs and addressing perceived crises.

And again, the "like voter" is different than the general public. What one can do is influence likely voters though a meaningful education campaign. But even if they were to start today and lets say this MAPS docket vote was delayed into September when on here some thought it would be, it would take at least three to six weeks utilizing an exceptional marketing team to penetrate the voting public's zietgiest and have show up in polling.

These people royally screwed up if they really wanted this thing.

[John]

For everyone saying 'build it by the zoo,' weren't there cross-contamination issues between the horses (at Remington) & dolphins which was making it impossible for Aquaticus to operate as it once did?

[catch22]

Wow! This would be awesome!

[jedicurt]

For everyone saying 'build it by the zoo,' weren't there cross-contamination issues between the horses (at Remington) & dolphins which was making it impossible for Aquaticus to operate as it once did?

also, looking at the current land for the zoo... where would they put it? have it just take up the whole eastern side of the waterfront?

[tyeomans]

If true, I'm going to be completely disappointed if this is not included on Maps 4. I always complain to everyone I know that OKC needs more tourist/entertainment attractions as OKC seems to be on the more conservative side when it comes to entertainment. I feel as if having a world-class aquarium like the renderings show could without a doubt be a HUGE game-changer for the city and probably be the most successful thing to come out of the MAPS initiatives. It saddens me to think that something this amazing could simply just be thrown to the curb. I bleed OKC blood, and it's a place that I am so proud to say that I'm from and having something like this excites me even more to think that OKC could house a unique destination that no other place compares to. Just when I think we are getting an A+ project, I see the report card only to find out we got a B.

[soonerguru]

Until they got a very short time at the end of the last public MAPS meeting, I personally didn't know any of the details or that the zoo director was so heavily behind this.

That meeting was 16 days ago.

Did the director of the Zoo push for the story? It seems pretty simple to me that if they had done any type of public education effort this would have been a contender for inclusion.

This feels very orchestrated.

On another note, the OKCTalk universe is definitely more pro-development than the average voter. In talking to voters throughout the city for the last year and a half, I have heard so much negativity toward further downtown development, even from people who voted for and supported previous MAPS initiatives. Now, at the last second, we get this shiny downtown project pr push.

People want MAPS expanded to neighborhoods, away from downtown, and to city services. That is clear to people paying attention. This finding has been consistent in multiple scientific polls of likely municipal voters.

[Laramie]

For everyone saying 'build it by the zoo,' weren't there cross-contamination issues between the horses (at Remington) & dolphins which was making it impossible for Aquaticus to operate as it once did?

Actually, IIRC the Dolphins can't survive this far inland above sea level; OKC's 1201' elevation didn't help--which led to pneumonia. May had more to do with the zoo's inexperience though.

Please correct me if I received the wrong information, strange though, Las Vegas has a dolphin exhibit...