Ideas 4 MAPS

[soonerguru]

Is Funk Jr. making the same mistake his dad did with the Blazers? People loved the Blazers but everything fell apart when he attempted to rebrand the team and jump up to a higher level of competition. I have a friend who lives in DFW and was a professional soccer player. He said even Dallas struggles to keep its MLS team afloat. I realize this isn’t about getting an MLS team, but why not do what Boulder Sooner suggests? That seems like a good fit for where we are as a city. And if we are talking about $20 million, why should that investment all be borne by taxpayers?

[Laramie]

2014 Bonney Field at Cal Expo cost $3 million initially; it's just a pop up stadium at the Cal Expo fairgrounds on city owned land. It will not allow Sacramento to obtain an MLS franchise. They are making plans for a $250 million, 19,621 seat MLS stadium on 13 acres expandable to 25,000.

You pass a MAPS 4 Stadium on $20 million budget constructed on city owned land like the 440 acre State Fair Park to mirror Sacramento's situation, you've potentially wasted $20 million.

Why invest $20 million into a predominately bleacher-type stadium without the necessary amenities to invest in the future.

If you're not going to invest in a strong solid infrastructure foundation venue that's expansion ready--strike the stadium from the MAPS 4 initiative, abandon soccer for now, risk the Energy FC being forced to relocate and continue this discussion in 2028 MAPS 5 initiative when a 10,000 seat stadium will cost you $200 million for the same venue we can build now for $65 - $80 million.

Construct a 10,000 seat $72.5 million (chair back seats) stadium in the core with solid infrastructure near downtown, convention center complex & bricktown (restaurant amenities) near the streetcar, you'll have a future investment for a stadium that could be expanded far beyond MLS current standards. You'll see crowds of 8,000 to 10,000 on a regular basis.

USL's 17 home games downtown will support the restaurants in the area that could use more event dates. thru SMG management.

[Laramie]

Is Funk Jr. making the same mistake his dad did with the Blazers? People loved the Blazers but everything fell apart when he attempted to rebrand the team and jump up to a higher level of competition. I have a friend who lives in DFW and was a professional soccer player. He said even Dallas struggles to keep its MLS team afloat. I realize this isn’t about getting an MLS team, but why not do what Boulder Sooner suggests? That seems like a good fit for where we are as a city. And if we are talking about $20 million, why should that investment all be borne by taxpayers?

This is why you don't want to put a USL or MLS franchise in a suburb. The long-term support may not be sustainable. MLS brand is growing in popularity.

The Funk's track record speaks for itself (Blazers, AHL Barons, RedHawks, IGA women's tennis). They are the current USL owners--I'll leave it at that...

The rebrand & upgrade with the CHL Blazers (AHL Barons) came after OKC secured the NBA. Funk had an opportunity to bring AHL/IHL or MLS to OKC in the early 2000s.

As for a $20 million venue in the core, majority of those funds ($6 million to $12 million) would be eaten up by site acquisition which doesn't include infrastructure; unless you opt to build at State Fair Park (SFP) --where there's an infrastructure spur & adequate surface paved parking.

What OKC could get for $20 million (Outside of SFP) once you deduct site acquisition & infrastructure would be a 'Pop up' stadium that doesn't include parking--don't repeat the mistake OKC made with the convention center complex.

[soonerguru]

I’m trying to advocate something sellable. I may live in a bubble but I’m not hearing much excitement about funding a private team’s stadium when there are so many other needs that have been presented than can be funded.

[Dob Hooligan]

I’m gonna be the grump today and say that Soccer has been “The Next Big Thing” since Pele was playing for the New York Cosmos in the 1970s. Speculators have made pro Soccer the biggest financial black hole in American sports history.
I have zero issue with a Stadium downtown with more than about a 15,000 capacity and a UCO or “best in Oklahoma” high school program. I think Oklahoma City is around number 40 on the MLS Soccer team interest location scale.
Build a Stadium that could host football for large class high school playoffs, HBCU bowl and “special interest” games, NCAA FCS and NAIA playoff games, in addition to USL Soccer, and count me in. I would not be a supporter of an MLS focused Stadium.

[mattyiceokc]

I’m trying to advocate something sellable. I may live in a bubble but I’m not hearing much excitement about funding a private team’s stadium when there are so many other needs that have been presented than can be funded.

It's been stated MANY times in here before, the stadium WILL NOT belong to the Energy. It'll be owned by the city of OKC and can be used for many different kinds of events. The Energy will only be a tenant.

[mattyiceokc]

I’m gonna be the grump today and say that Soccer has been “The Next Big Thing” since Pele was playing for the New York Cosmos in the 1970s. Speculators have made pro Soccer the biggest financial black hole in American sports history.
I have zero issue with a Stadium downtown with more than about a 15,000 capacity and a UCO or “best in Oklahoma” high school program. I think Oklahoma City is around number 40 on the MLS Soccer team interest location scale.
Build a Stadium that could host football for large class high school playoffs, HBCU bowl and “special interest” games, NCAA FCS and NAIA playoff games, in addition to USL Soccer, and count me in. I would not be a supporter of an MLS focused Stadium.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/filipbo.../#1d87e8243c53

"But among adults aged 18-34, soccer was the favorite sport of 11%, tying basketball; only 6% of younger adults chose baseball as their favorite sport."

You've apparently never seen images or videos from some of the these US soccer teams that have great fan bases already. Atlanta United just had 72,000 for a regular season game. They're averaging 53,000 a game this season!

I'm tired of this kind of talk from older generations that refuse to see soccer in the same light as the other popular team sports in America. This isn't the 1970s

[Laramie]

Good information from your link, mattyiceokc

I’m trying to advocate something sellable. I may live in a bubble but I’m not hearing much excitement about funding a private team’s stadium when there are so many other needs that have been presented than can be funded.

MAPS 4 will be able to fund so many of those needs without cutting funds for other items requested if they appear on MAPS 4 on or slightly below requests. Some of these projects will bring out-of-state dollars to our city much like the new convention center under construction.

Again, as it has been stated so many times; this stadium will be owned by the City of Oklahoma City. The stadium, much like so many of OKC owned facilities: Chesapeake Energy Arena, State Fair Arena, Civic Center Music Hall will be managed by SMG management. Energy FC will be the major tenant paying rent where this facility will not be a burden to the city.

You want to eventually see events brought to OKC like the OSSAA 6A championship in football will need a stadium that seats beyond 20,000 to compete with University of Tulsa's 30k Chapman Stadium and bring the OSSAA coaches association convention & H.S. championships back to Oklahoma City on a rotation basis.

Starting with a 10,000 seat stadium will help us reach the goal of expansion which wouldn't be that costly once you have the foundation & infrastructure in place. Whether or not we obtain a Major League Soccer (MLS) franchise; a stadium for our city is long overdue.

[Dob Hooligan]

I'm about 60. So I am the last generation that didn't play organized soccer in grade school. But, I am also the first generation of "Soccer dads". Soccer is a great sport. It's a great participation sport and it's a good sport for parents to help and bond with their children. I have been watching Premier League matches for 15 years. It's a good product.

Soccer has not been a money making enterprise in the United States at the level of the "Big 4" leagues. Youth participation has not translated into viewing interest at the level hoped for. Every factor suggests that soccer should be more popular in the United States than it has been. Those have been the same factors that have driven investment for 40 years.

There have pockets of intense interest and periods of popularity over the last decades, but it hasn't translated to a lasting national popularity and revenue production. The Cosmos drew numbers in the 1970s equal to what Atlanta is currently. I hope it sticks this time.

[Laramie]

I'm about 60. So I am the last generation that didn't play organized soccer in grade school. But, I am also the first generation of "Soccer dads". Soccer is a great sport. It's a great participation sport and it's a good sport for parents to help and bond with their children. I have been watching Premier League matches for 15 years. It's a good product.

Soccer has not been a money making enterprise in the United States at the level of the "Big 4" leagues. Youth participation has not translated into viewing interest at the level hoped for. Every factor suggests that soccer should be more popular in the United States than it has been. Those have been the same factors that have driven investment for 40 years.

There have pockets of intense interest and periods of popularity over the last decades, but it hasn't translated to a lasting national popularity and revenue production. The Cosmos drew numbers in the 1970s equal to what Atlanta is currently. I hope it sticks this time.

Like you, my two boys played organized soccer. It's a great conditioning sport, main reason they were allowed to play soccer before organized basketball. Viewing, the United States has been making progress. Women's recent World Cup domination created renewed interests.

Oklahoma City doesn't have to be limited to a one major league sports town; saying we can attain the highest level of play in soccer be it USL or MLS, all for giving it a try.

You can't gauge the interests of a minor league franchises' performance in a stadium like Taft (non regulation field) in an area that doesn't provide a host of family friendly amenities as a stadium built in the core would offer with nearby Midtown & Bricktown.

[OKCRT]

It's been stated MANY times in here before, the stadium WILL NOT belong to the Energy. It'll be owned by the city of OKC and can be used for many different kinds of events. The Energy will only be a tenant.

Of course they would be a tenant. That way all they would pay is a measly little lease and everything else like maintenance upkeep renovations and whatever else comes up would be up to the tax payers to foot the bill. It's a scam that team owners have been pulling for years all over the USA in all sports to line their pockets. This would be a bad investment for the tax payers.

[Laramie]

Of course they would be a tenant. That way all they would pay is a measly little lease and everything else like maintenance upkeep renovations and whatever else comes up would be up to the tax payers to foot the bill. It's a scam that team owners have been pulling for years all over the USA in all sports to line their pockets. This would be a bad investment for the tax payers.

The above is what you said today... ...$65 million to $80 million stadium.

Below is what you said earlier 07-29-2019... ...$200 million you would give IF for MLS; I'm really confused:

Don't think OKC is even on the MLS radar at this time, there's a decent sized waiting list in larger markets. If this was for MLS I would be all in on building the stadium if it was a first class 200 mil + project. That would draw fans in the 15-20k range every game. What they are proposing here is not even in the same ballpark. I just don't think it's worth it. This would be a gift to the owners.

Where are you on the stadium OKCRT?
.

[OKCRT]

The above is what you said today... ...$65 million to $80 million stadium.

Below is what you said earlier 07-29-2019... ...$200 million you would give IF for MLS; I'm really confused:



Where are you on the stadium OKCRT?
.

We are talking about USL VS MLS. No one cares about minor league soccer and it would be a waste of tax payers money to build a stadium for that. They would draw a few thousand fans. MLS on the other hand would require a first class stadium and would def. have a much bigger draw. An MLS stadium downtown would prob. spur a lot of other development around it. So we are talking apples and oranges. So I would be in favor of an MLS stadium if that time comes.

[mattyiceokc]

We are talking about USL VS MLS. No one cares about minor league soccer and it would be a waste of tax payers money to build a stadium for that. They would draw a few thousand fans. MLS on the other hand would require a first class stadium and would def. have a much bigger draw. An MLS stadium downtown would prob. spur a lot of other development around it. So we are talking apples and oranges. So I would be in favor of an MLS stadium if that time comes.

Are you aware that 3 of the recent MLS expansion teams came from the USL? Orlando, FC Cincinatti, and Nashville SC all competed in the USL first. OKC is never going to get an MLS team without having a successful USL team. Also, plenty of people care about division 2 soccer (Not minor league. It's really a simple concept to understand). Total attendance at all USL division 2 games this season has been 1.6 million and we still have 2.5 months left.

[PaddyShack]

Of course they would be a tenant. That way all they would pay is a measly little lease and everything else like maintenance upkeep renovations and whatever else comes up would be up to the tax payers to foot the bill. It's a scam that team owners have been pulling for years all over the USA in all sports to line their pockets. This would be a bad investment for the tax payers.

So you should also be against the upgrades and idea of the CHK arena. The taxpayers are footing the bill just to keep the Thunder in OKC.

[jonny d]

So you should also be against the upgrades and idea of the CHK arena. The taxpayers are footing the bill just to keep the Thunder in OKC.

It's different, because arenas will get a lot more use than a soccer stadium. And OKC already owned the arena years before the Thunder got here. Apples to sweet potatoes comparison.

[jedicurt]

It's different, because arenas will get a lot more use than a soccer stadium. And OKC already owned the arena years before the Thunder got here. Apples to sweet potatoes comparison.

well... not really, yes, the city owned it years before the Thunder, but solely for the purpose of hoping to lure either and NBA or NHL franchise here... and as for usage... both can be used regularly pretty much year round... the soccer stadium isn't any less useful, just often cities don't know how to schedule them properly.

this is what Las Vegas is showing with their new Football stadium... while a normal facility for the NFL only gets used on average 60 times a year... Las Vegas is already saying that they plan to use the facility close to 100 days a year, for bigger events. and perhaps even more than that. now the cost of using an arena is cheaper, yes... but that doesn't necessarily mean it gets much more use, when you look at it from a return on investment standpoint.

NOTE: i'm saying this as someone who does not support a MAPS 4 soccer stadium

[mattyiceokc]

It's different, because arenas will get a lot more use than a soccer stadium. And OKC already owned the arena years before the Thunder got here. Apples to sweet potatoes comparison.

For the hundredth time, it's not just for soccer. It's a multipurpose stadium that can be used for a number of other sports, as well as concerts, etc. Obviously, the Energy would be the main tenant, just like the Thunder are for CHK.

[dankrutka]

The taxpayers are footing the bill just to keep the Thunder in OKC.

Whether voters should approve the Peake upgrades is a fair issue to be debated, but the idea that OKC citizens must continually foot the bill for whatever the wealthy owners of the Thunder want just to keep the team in OKC sounds like citizens are being held hostage for corporate welfare. Of course, there are reasonable situations where citizens should decide how they support a professional franchise like the Thunder.... But every Thunder decision should not be tied to the idea that the owners will move the team if they don't get whatever they want all the time.

[jonny d]

For the hundredth time, it's not just for soccer. It's a multipurpose stadium that can be used for a number of other sports, as well as concerts, etc. Obviously, the Energy would be the main tenant, just like the Thunder are for CHK.

Yes, you are right. I get it, for the 100th time. But you are probably greatly over-estimating the economic impact this stadium will have. The number of concerts this venue would have would be low, and community sporting events don't do much, revenue-wise. Whereas the Peake hosts 41 Thunder games and 15-30 (depending on year) concerts per year, along with dozens of other events (WWE, Big 3, circus-type events) per year. An outdoor 20k stadium would sit empty 315 to 325 days a year.

[mattyiceokc]

Yes, you are right. I get it, for the 100th time. But you are probably greatly over-estimating the economic impact this stadium will have. The number of concerts this venue would have would be low, and community sporting events don't do much, revenue-wise. Whereas the Peake hosts 41 Thunder games and 15-30 (depending on year) concerts per year, along with dozens of other events (WWE, Big 3, circus-type events) per year. An outdoor 20k stadium would sit empty 315 to 325 days a year.

And you are greatly under-estimating the amount of events that could be held at a multipurpose stadium. Think outside the box. It can host more than just soccer, football, and concerts.

[jedicurt]

Yes, you are right. I get it, for the 100th time. But you are probably greatly over-estimating the economic impact this stadium will have. The number of concerts this venue would have would be low, and community sporting events don't do much, revenue-wise. Whereas the Peake hosts 41 Thunder games and 15-30 (depending on year) concerts per year, along with dozens of other events (WWE, Big 3, circus-type events) per year. An outdoor 20k stadium would sit empty 315 to 325 days a year.

the Peake sits empty some 250 days a year... again... bad planning of events is a separate issue

[BoulderSooner]

Are you aware that 3 of the recent MLS expansion teams came from the USL? Orlando, FC Cincinatti, and Nashville SC all competed in the USL first. OKC is never going to get an MLS team without having a successful USL team. Also, plenty of people care about division 2 soccer (Not minor league. It's really a simple concept to understand). Total attendance at all USL division 2 games this season has been 1.6 million and we still have 2.5 months left.

it is a minor league it is just not the MLS minor league ...

however they have a deal with MLS and lots of USL teams ARE the minor league teams of their MLS owners .. .


also to get an MLS team at this point is a pipe dream

[jedicurt]

it is a minor league it is just not the MLS minor league ...

however they have a deal with MLS and lots of USL teams ARE the minor league teams of their MLS owners .. .


also to get an MLS team at this point is a pipe dream

exactly... i mean how many teams do we think MLS is going to get to? and if we aren't already putting in a bid... we are not going to get there. because too many other cities are already making their proposals for MLS expansion and are way ahead of us.

[mattyiceokc]

it is a minor league it is just not the MLS minor league ...

however they have a deal with MLS and lots of USL teams ARE the minor league teams of their MLS owners .. .


also to get an MLS team at this point is a pipe dream

Alright, since people are still equating minor league baseball with USL soccer, lets go ahead and break it down.

Lets take the OKC Dodgers. Every single player on the OKC Dodgers has a contract with the LA Dodgers. The LA Dodgers control where each player plays within their farm club system. The OKC Dodgers have ZERO control over what players are on the team.

The Energy are completely different from this. Each player on the Energy is under contract with the Energy. The Energy have complete control over their roster. Also, the USL has a partnership with MLS, but it still operates completely independent of the MLS and makes decisions based on whats best for the USL, not MLS. Yes, some MLS teams operate in the same league as the Energy (USL Championship, or Division 2). There is a big push among all of the independent clubs in USL (which make up more than 50 percent of the league) to force all of the MLS owned teams down into USL League One (aka Division 3).


There is no such thing as minor league in soccer. Honestly, minor league is term that should only be used for baseball, or other leagues that are branded as a developmental league (such as the NBA G League). USL is not a developmental league. The goal for a majority of the teams (excluding some of the MLS teams) is to win a championship with the best players available, regardless of player age. Developmental leagues like minor league baseball and NBA G-League focus on player development of young athletes instead of winning championships.

Oh, and of the 36 USL Championship teams, only 9 are owned by MLS teams. So I wouldn't say that "lots" or USL teams are the minor league teams of MLS. Other teams may be "affiliated" with a MLS team like OKC used to be with Sporting KC and FC Dallas, but it still is completely different than minor league baseball. When OKC was affiliated with FC Dallas for instance, they would loan us 2 or 3 players off and on for the season to play with us, but it was only done if it was a good fit for both teams. FC Dallas routinely would loan players out to other USL clubs, even when they were affiliated with us.