Ideas 4 MAPS

[d-usa]

Additional questions, and this is pretty much my own ignorance:

Was the Boathouse Foundation a MAPS creation? I know the Rapids were, but didn’t know about the Foundation.

Also: when we do bonds for additional fire stations, roads, schools, and such, do they usually include long term funding for firemen, road maintenance, and teachers?

[d-usa]

^

The Parks & Rec Budget is only asking for 5% more this year over last, which is about a $1.8M increase. Inflation in the U.S. has been running about 2%.

Scissortail Park will take at least $2.8M in subsidy.

So, they just merely cut other things out of the parks and rec budget, such as maintenance and people. In other words, less money to go around to all the other parks and facilities.


Those are hard numbers in one area, just to use as an example.

Thanks. The closest park that we use the most is Martin Nature Park (great park by the way) and it’s been a pleasure seeing it grow over the past decade.

[Pete]

The Boathouse Foundation was created to operate the city-owned river facilities as a result of MAPS.

The Myriad Foundation does the same for MBG and now the MAPS 3 Scissortail Park.

[d-usa]

I don’t want to come across and say that MAPS funding is a non-issue. I do think we need to consider if the overall growth caused by it is worth continuing with other capital improvements. And many of those are probably not easily measured.

How many people moved here for work who wouldn’t know anything about OKC without the Thunder as an example. Are employers able to use that as a marketing tool, and do we have sales tax and property tax growth because someone or some business moved here because of these projects and the increased visibility.

Some stuff also isn’t ever going to make money. We don’t expect roads or a fire station to raise funds for their maintenance. Sometimes we just have to dig into our collective pockets to pay for that and cry about “socialism”. Of course it’s a fair question to then ask if a soccer stadium is worth it or if it should be spend on roads.

Maybe we need to consider selling the next MAPS as a final MAPS, with an expiring sales tax and a permanent sales tax for funding operations after the temporary improvement tax expires.

[SouthSide]

You have the same problem with the parks system that you have with almost everything else in the city, city services favor northwest and now also the central (downtown, midtown) portion of the city. There are zero public gardens or nature preserves in south okc. Unless part of the plan is to add parks to under served areas and bring some equity to the city's parks then this will just be a continuation of MAPS benefiting one part of the city over others.

[d-usa]

The Boathouse Foundation was created to operate the city-owned river facilities as a result of MAPS.

The Myriad Foundation does the same for MBG and now the MAPS 3 Scissortail Park.

Which facilities do we own? The Rapids and trails I would assume, and maybe the cost of river and damn maintenance, maybe the water buses? Are the other buildings owned by other entities?

I’m really trying to ask more question rather than argue against stuff. I’m always learning lots of things from many folks here, so it helps me make better decisions down the line. Hope I don’t come across as too argumentative.

[d-usa]

You have the same problem with the parks system that you have with almost everything else in the city, city services favor northwest and now also the central (downtown, midtown) portion of the city. There are zero public gardens or nature preserves in south okc. Unless part of the plan is to add parks to under served areas and bring some equity to the city's parks then this will just be a continuation of MAPS benefiting one part of the city over others.

That is something I can agree with.

Soccer is something billed as benefiting the Southside. But so far it seems to be limited to “south midtown” or “south Bricktown”.

[Ed Shadid]

Which is not what I asked though.

I asked what cuts were made to other programs to fund this spending. What parts of the city budgets were cut to ensure continuing funding for things created by MAPS. Since that’s an argument made by some against future MAPS projects, we should be able to know what programs or services are hurt by old MAPS projects.

This question can't be answered yet. The convention center and downtown park which constitute more than half of MAPS 3 haven't been built/come online yet. Only 2/4 senior wellness centers are built. The streetcar just came online 6 months ago. The intermodal transit hub isn't finished. etc...

Operations and maintenance for MAPS 2 came from the school districts, not the City of OKC.

The O&M concerns are not an argument against MAPS if MAPS would simply have a certain percentage dedicated to O&M. It is the fierce resistance to anything other than capital expenditures in MAPS which is the problem.

Endowments won't solve the problem either; it takes years to collect the money which have to be placed in ultraconservative investments and won't provide anything like the transformational change which would accompany having 1/4 penny of MAPS go to O&M.

[d-usa]

What about MAPS 1?

https://www.okc.gov/home/showdocument?id=1806

[David]

If the new convention center brings in the additional conventions they are anticipating/hoping for, I would be shocked if the additional hotel and restaurant sales tax revenue from the associated visitors doesn't easily pay for the O&M for it.

Same with the sales tax from the likely new development around Scissortail park.

[Pete]

^

Remember we are also heavily subsidizing the Omni, building a parking garage, had to buy the land for that, etc.

LIke $200M alone just for that... So that has to be factored in as well.

[d-usa]

And we are not allowed to subsidize certain other things as part of the agreement right? Which could limit further growth in exchange.

[Pete]

And we are not allowed to subsidize certain other things as part of the agreement right? Which could limit further growth in exchange.

No TIF can be used for hotels in the downtown area, and there are some other strings.

[SouthSide]

Appreciate the reply It is very frustrating that the city's solution is to throw a soccer field to the southside. The thought process behind that gives me a headache!

[PaddyShack]

What about the new park up near CC, won't that be drawing funds from the Parks department?

[Laramie]

Appreciate the reply It is very frustrating that the city's solution is to throw a soccer field to the southside. The thought process behind that gives me a headache!

I know your feelings, so don't take this as a personal attack on you; it's like the city is throwing the south side a bone. The Northeast side has favored & supported MAPS; Edwards Park amenities & Crystal Lake are some of the results of MAPS-Bonds initiatives. We'd gladly accept those soccer fields.

Definitely understand your concern; however IIRC many precincts on the south side didn't favor & voted against MAPS & Bonds. Don't get me wrong; that doesn't mean they shouldn't benefit--their contribution to the penny sales tax adds up. You did receive MAPS-Bond projects/upgrades in many schools, parks, River projects, planters, a skate park and other projects; basically, you got a lot more than a number of communities.

If you don't want those soccer fields there are many communities and parks that would benefit. Not quite sure where they will propose the soccer stadium since the Producers COOP site is in question. OKC has invested much in the river on the south side with more in the works.

[gopokes88]

Seems like it might have been a mistake to build the CC last. Everyone will be voting formaps4, before seeing the 1/2 the benefits of maps3.

I remember reading through the CC thread and the tone quickly shifted to “ok this is pretty cool” once the cranes and steel went up. It’ll only get more positive as it nears and becomes complete.

City is trying to sell a Lamborghini in maps4, they just forgot to put gas in it.

[Laramie]

The two unpopular items on MAPS 4 are unfortunately the ones that will probably get built last if you want the initiative to be approved.

If the arena (City owned land at SFP) is built before the soccer stadium, the USL will keep a franchise in OKC--provided the Funks want to continue to own & operate a USL franchise.

The City needs to make the debt-free CEA available for minor league hockey where we (taxpayers) funded the downtown arena to support all events. An ECHL franchise (downtown) not SFA would help Bricktown restaurants & businesses immensely.

The 47 year old Cox Convention Center Arena is not an option for an ECHL franchise or G-League OKC Blue, Tulsa & Wichita are our rivals; they will be key to the success of minor league hockey's return.

[mugofbeer]

Appreciate the reply It is very frustrating that the city's solution is to throw a soccer field to the southside. The thought process behind that gives me a headache!

So, they want to put a soccer stadium on the south side but it's frustrating because it seems like a bone. But if the soccer stadium were put on the north side you'd be frustrated because they didn't put it on the south side.

Give some examples of what you would like. What does the south side need that a temporary flow of revenue would provide? Where would it go? What infrastructure needs are there? Give some solutions.

[Zorba]

Sidewalks in neighborhoods esp. around schools where people tend to walk a lot would be nice. I don't walk kids to school or anything like that but I see a lot of people walking their kids and kids walking out in the streets because lack of sidewalks. This is basic stuff that all decent cities need. Do away with soccer stadiums til sidewalks are provided for the people.

The neighborhood next to my mom's is currently getting MAPS* sidewalks added. It is a nice addition and they are doing it right, fully redoing the lower part of the driveways so the sidewalk meets the driveway flat. It is only within some distance from the school though, so at some random spot in the neighborhood it just stops.

*Actually not sure if its MAPS or bonds.

[Zorba]

Do they think they are actually fooling anyone selling the soccer stadium as a football stadium? Isn't the capacity around 10K? So it might be good for middle school games. There are already many football stadiums around town with far greater capacity, I don't see any major high school event going there.

[mugofbeer]

How many is "many?" I can only think of Speegle and it only holds 3600. In fact, Taft is the only one that comes to mind for OKC Public schools and it's north side.

[SouthSide]

The conversation was about using MAPs money for parks. It just seems to me that the response to the southside is always we have or will build a soccer field for you so you can't complain. The southside is diverse; not everyone likes soccer. I was pointing out that the distribution of parks and quality/type of parks vary widely across the city and suggested that if parks were to be considered as part of MAPs it needs to involve more than just updating the existing parks. For example, it should include adding parks in underserved areas.

I hadn't heard that a site has been selected for the proposed soccer stadium.

[Laramie]

Southside, you are correct about a site for the proposed soccer stadium. The Producer's COOP Mill site was suggested and used as a placeholder.

The city owns land on the Oklahoma River riverfront close to the core and near new development (AICCM) where a stadium could be constructed and avoid costly land acquisition.

Does it matter which side of river?

[shawnw]

There's a park SW29/I-44 I think that got a very nice overhaul with GO2007 money, and I thought the big park with the pedestrian bridge over I-44 got a partial reno with GO2007 money as well, not that that's nearly enough. Is south lakes park not south side OKC? Or is that Moore? Used to love taking my kids there before they went and grew up on me. Again not saying south side is getting the love it needs, but just off the top of my head I thought at least a few pretty cool parks.