Streetcar

[djohn]

OKC paid for its entire streetcar system...

If someone wants to talk about recovering costs, please also ask how often roads recover their entire costs... or airports... we subsidize all transportation, so let's move on from that red herring.

Really? Roads are REQUIRED for a city to function. Our Streetcars were not. Yes, there are benefits, but you cannot compare roads to streetcars.

[Midtowner]

I think everyone knows what the status quo is. The streetcar and other modes of transportation are being developed to get us past the status quo allowing OKC to be a competitive city and a good place to live in the future. You went to great pains to explain the expense of owning a car. Not everyone can afford a car. Cars are extremely bad for the environment and of all of the transit options available, they are probably the least efficient mode. I think this thread and this forum are generally past this.

[OKC Guy]

I think everyone knows what the status quo is. The streetcar and other modes of transportation are being developed to get us past the status quo allowing OKC to be a competitive city and a good place to live in the future. You went to great pains to explain the expense of owning a car. Not everyone can afford a car. Cars are extremely bad for the environment and of all of the transit options available, they are probably the least efficient mode. I think this thread and this forum are generally past this.

As I stated before for half the cost of SC we could have built a model bus system.

Another comment. We already had streetcars years ago and they did not sustain and were halted and covered over/taken out.

IMO, the current SC system we have now serves (will serve):

1. Tourists. Especially once OMNI/Convention open up.

2. Bar hopping/events

3. Workers living downtown for work

Thats my opinion

And its not “past this”. There is talk of adding an extension to SC so the discussion is relevant. We are talking more major SC expense where if we put that money into buses would serve more people who need good transportation without cars.

[Plutonic Panda]

OKC paid for its entire streetcar system...

If someone wants to talk about recovering costs, please also ask how often roads recover their entire costs... or airports... we subsidize all transportation, so let's move on from that red herring.

That is ridiculous. Roads likely recoup their costs from day one.

[LakeEffect]

Roads don't pay for themselves - gas taxes, tolls, and other fees don't recover the costs it takes to build and maintain roads.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...-costs/412237/

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/01/...or-themselves/

Let's move on and talk about each mode's expenses and benefits separately. Let's bring environmental costs and benefits into the picture too.

[GoGators]

That is ridiculous. Roads likely recoup their costs from day one.

Source?

[Plutonic Panda]

Roads don't pay for themselves - gas taxes, tolls, and other fees don't recover the costs it takes to build and maintain roads.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...-costs/412237/

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/01/...or-themselves/

Let's move on and talk about each mode's expenses and benefits separately. Let's bring environmental costs and benefits into the picture too.

Source?

Almost the entire economy moves by roads. How do people get to work. How do goods move? Majority of it on roads. The gas tax and tolls is to maintain and fund capital improvements. There is more to the picture than that.

PS, a Streetsblog article pushing a negative article about roads... shocker.

PPS, how long until the 2nd Ave. ext pays for itself? How much money and value of goods moved through the new Crosstown? I bet it’s more in one year than Heartland Flyer has done in its entire existence. Do I have proof of this? No. There needs to be more research into that. Not taking such a simplistic view on such things only considering gas tax or user fees.

If you find what I’m saying ridiculous that’s fair. It’s just as fair for to find Lake Effects comments equally as ridiculous. Yes we subsidize infrastructure for the most part. Its for the greater good. This isn’t ground breaking or new. Comparing roads which OKC has to have vs. a streetcar is comical.

[Ross MacLochness]

The problem isn't roads but how we build them and what we allow to be built around them. Yes, we need roads, but there are ways to build them that make more financial sense than how we are building them right now. The push for density, alternate modes of transport, walkability, etc are attempts to try and correct a trend that has been going on here for several decades: unchecked suburban sprawl. There is a threshold to how spread out people can be before roads (and plumbing, and police and fire) cost a city more to maintain than they can accrue in tax revenue. OKC is far, far beyond that point, hence the attempt to densify. Bricktown for example brings in something like 10% of the cities entire tax revenue but is only .0003% of the total land area of the city. So while projects that happen Downtown and in other dense areas may not seem to matter to someone way out in the burbs, they are essential to the overall health of the city. Dense areas (or commercially intense, mixed use areas) literally subsidize less dense areas, especially in a place like OKC where levels of density are incredibly low.

[Midtowner]

As I stated before for half the cost of SC we could have built a model bus system.

I'd happily concede the point if the purpose of the streetcar was ultimately transportation. The purpose of the streetcar is to drive private development at the core. Moving people around is purely secondary. The streetcar was designed with what the city will look like 20 years from now in mind. It is foundational. If you're going to build a 70-story tower, onlookers are going to question your intent when you start doing so by digging a giant hole. You're going the wrong way. Only after the cranes and steel beams start to show up does anything make any sense.

We're at the very beginning here. This will probably be one of the only streetcar lines--if not the only streetcar line we're going to see in a long time. The next step is adding Bus Rapid Transit.

Another comment. We already had streetcars years ago and they did not sustain and were halted and covered over/taken out.

Funny that you'd say that. The original owners of the original streetcar didn't make their fortunes running a train. In fact, they made most of their money from generating electricity, which they sold back to the grid and by building streetcar lines into empty fields, buying said empty fields, then platting and selling the lots along those lines at a substantial profit. Not much has changed. Today, the streetcar is being used to ensure property development and private investment just as it was 100 years ago.

And its not “past this”. There is talk of adding an extension to SC so the discussion is relevant. We are talking more major SC expense where if we put that money into buses would serve more people who need good transportation without cars.

That's already what's happening. BRT will see major investment before another rail line is considered. It might be another 20 years before we see another streetcar. If ever.

[CCOKC]

Not sure how often this happens (or will in the future) but apparently even the most minor of emergencies shuts the Street Car down until first responders leave the area.

Saw this this morning. Apparently at this point the driver wouldn't let passengers off the Street Car (according to a bystander). I could easily see first responders staying parked for 20-40 minutes in a similar situation. At what point are the passengers allowed to get off the Street Car?

Attachment 15231

This just happened at 10th and Robinson. The streetcar was waiting for about 10 minutes I would say as a person was taken into an ambulance.

[OKC Guy]

This just happened at 10th and Robinson. The streetcar was waiting for about 10 minutes I would say as a person was taken into an ambulance.

Just saw this:


OKC Streetcar
@OKCStreetcar
RIDER ALERT: Service delayed due to obstruction. Bus bridge in effect (look for a white bus).
5:34 PM · Apr 8, 2019 ·

[OKC Guy]

I'd happily concede the point if the purpose of the streetcar was ultimately transportation. The purpose of the streetcar is to drive private development at the core. Moving people around is purely secondary. The streetcar was designed with what the city will look like 20 years from now in mind. It is foundational. If you're going to build a 70-story tower, onlookers are going to question your intent when you start doing so by digging a giant hole. You're going the wrong way. Only after the cranes and steel beams start to show up does anything make any sense.

We're at the very beginning here. This will probably be one of the only streetcar lines--if not the only streetcar line we're going to see in a long time. The next step is adding Bus Rapid Transit.



Funny that you'd say that. The original owners of the original streetcar didn't make their fortunes running a train. In fact, they made most of their money from generating electricity, which they sold back to the grid and by building streetcar lines into empty fields, buying said empty fields, then platting and selling the lots along those lines at a substantial profit. Not much has changed. Today, the streetcar is being used to ensure property development and private investment just as it was 100 years ago.



That's already what's happening. BRT will see major investment before another rail line is considered. It might be another 20 years before we see another streetcar. If ever.

On your first sentence:

I was told the Streetcar was the “last mile” of our transit system. I was told this in this very thread by those in the know. Are you saying we now admit its not worthy of being a people mover “to get folks to/from work” as part of an RTA?

Many times I said we should have done buses first but was told this was more important to moving people. My contention is buses could get more people “to/from” downtown without their car whereas SC still requires people to drive to/from downtown.

So now its to help the rich get richer by way of increased property values? After quite a few got TIF money?

I am pretty sure its been stated in this thread many times by key people it’s part of our key transportation plan “the last mile”.

[shawnw]

One of the things that turned me on to riding busses in Denver when I worked downtown was the use of bus only express lanes. I ended up not taking the light rail due to the inconvenient parking built for the system (a whole different subject) but that it simply took far longer to ride light rail because of (what I felt was) excessive stops. Maybe not everyone is like me but time was the biggest factor so when I saw I could bypass 2 miles of near-gridlock traffic to get downtown, I took it. Putting in a few bus only lanes may help ridership if it saves people time.

I was impressed that I could take a bus from the airport to Boulder a couple Novembers ago. RTD is doing good things.

[GoGators]

That is ridiculous. Roads likely recoup their costs from day one.

Do I have proof of this? No

Ok

[Plutonic Panda]

Ok

Ok

[RedDollar]

When it comes to private development and transformation in OKC, we're more used to massive change taking about 20 years. In 20 years, if the park and streetcar have spurred on huge private investment downtown, it will have been money well spent. Absent a major recession, we have every reason to believe this is going to happen.

Massive change will be autonomous vehicles, beginning with the public transportation sector. OKC made a decision to go backwards in 2009, when no one dreamed of autonomous vehicles. City Bus, Uber, Lyft .... according to most " experts " I see paraded on CNBC daily, will be autonomous within 15 years. Me, I don't have a crystal ball nor am I related to Nostradamus, but what I'm hearing makes a lot more sense than going back to a form of transportation from the past.

[BoulderSooner]

I'd happily concede the point if the purpose of the streetcar was ultimately transportation. The purpose of the streetcar is to drive private development at the core. Moving people around is purely secondary. The streetcar was designed with what the city will look like 20 years from now in mind. It is foundational. If you're going to build a 70-story tower, onlookers are going to question your intent when you start doing so by digging a giant hole. You're going the wrong way. Only after the cranes and steel beams start to show up does anything make any sense.

We're at the very beginning here. This will probably be one of the only streetcar lines--if not the only streetcar line we're going to see in a long time. The next step is adding Bus Rapid Transit.



Funny that you'd say that. The original owners of the original streetcar didn't make their fortunes running a train. In fact, they made most of their money from generating electricity, which they sold back to the grid and by building streetcar lines into empty fields, buying said empty fields, then platting and selling the lots along those lines at a substantial profit. Not much has changed. Today, the streetcar is being used to ensure property development and private investment just as it was 100 years ago.



That's already what's happening. BRT will see major investment before another rail line is considered. It might be another 20 years before we see another streetcar. If ever.

there will likely be a streetcar extension in MAPS4

[Midtowner]

there will likely be a streetcar extension in MAPS4

It's too soon. But if they think they can pull it off, power to 'em. Adding a soccer stadium no one wants and a streetcar expansion will probably be enough to tank the MAPS brand.

[Midtowner]

On your first sentence:

I was told the Streetcar was the “last mile” of our transit system. I was told this in this very thread by those in the know. Are you saying we now admit its not worthy of being a people mover “to get folks to/from work” as part of an RTA?

It's mighty Pollyana of you to not understand that how things are marketed and how things are intended can sometimes be different. MAPS, at its heart, has been about improving quality of life to drive investment in the city core. It has been massively successful. It has never been about equity, access, or any sort of social justice unless you subscribe to the idea that one has to have money to support equity, access, and social justice--and that MAPS is helping to accomplish just that.

Many times I said we should have done buses first but was told this was more important to moving people. My contention is buses could get more people “to/from” downtown without their car whereas SC still requires people to drive to/from downtown.

Well, BRT is on the horizon. Look for that to shape up soon.

So now its to help the rich get richer by way of increased property values? After quite a few got TIF money?

Almost everything the City Council does is to help the rich get richer. This is Oklahoma, after all. One can only hope that in helping the rich get richer, there will also be opportunities for middle class folks to move up--and that largely has been the case. This is how things work in America. The fact is that MAPS projects do grant people opportunities and do have a tangible positive impact on everyone's quality of life. I don't begrudge anyone for manipulating the system to their benefit. That's what you do these days to get ahead.

I am pretty sure its been stated in this thread many times by key people it’s part of our key transportation plan “the last mile”.

That's almost laughable. I can think of maybe one or two stops out of all of them which might be utilized by folks otherwise dependent on public transit to bring them downtown. Otherwise, is someone going to ride the bus downtown to buy a $60 steak at Red Prime?

[hoya]

When you compare methods of transportation, you should use the same set of standards.

Unless I drive on the turnpike, I don't pay tolls to drive on public roads. Everything is paid for with taxes. The street in front of my house isn't expected to generate revenue. There's nothing wrong with that, but we should use the same standards when judging the streetcar.

The fares charged to ride the streetcar will not cover the costs of operation. It appears they charge fares for two reasons -- first, because people threatened to sue if the buses charged and the streetcars didn't. Second, so they can kick off homeless people who will just stay on the streetcar all day. But the fact that fares won't cover costs of operation isn't an issue, because we don't expect our roads to pay for themselves either.

Now, in terms of development, roads are virtually a necessity (I'm sure you could come up with some SimCity style proposal where we don't have roads, but we didn't build the city that way). And while it's hard to compute the economic value of any individual road, we understand the need for public funding. The streetcar also has a big economic impact. Look at the new developments in Midtown that have appeared since the streetcar line started going in. At least some of these were clearly influenced by the streetcar itself.

Is it the most cost effective form of transportation available? No it is not. But it's certainly arguable that the streetcar produces more economic development than a comparable amount of spending on extra bus lines. Like with other MAPS projects, it's a quality of life improvement, and impossible to separate from other factors when looking at future growth. 20 years from now, if some big company relocates their headquarters to OKC, part of the reason they do it may be because of the improvements from the MAPS programs. They aren't going to say "oh yeah it was the streetcar that made the difference." Companies don't do that. But the streetcar, combined with the park, and the Thunder, and a state jobs incentive program, and and and... they all work together. It's an investment for potential future growth.

[BoulderSooner]

It's mighty Pollyana of you to not understand that how things are marketed and how things are intended can sometimes be different. MAPS, at its heart, has been about improving quality of life to drive investment in the city core. It has been massively successful. It has never been about equity, access, or any sort of social justice unless you subscribe to the idea that one has to have money to support equity, access, and social justice--and that MAPS is helping to accomplish just that.



Well, BRT is on the horizon. Look for that to shape up soon.



Almost everything the City Council does is to help the rich get richer. This is Oklahoma, after all. One can only hope that in helping the rich get richer, there will also be opportunities for middle class folks to move up--and that largely has been the case. This is how things work in America. The fact is that MAPS projects do grant people opportunities and do have a tangible positive impact on everyone's quality of life. I don't begrudge anyone for manipulating the system to their benefit. That's what you do these days to get ahead.



That's almost laughable. I can think of maybe one or two stops out of all of them which might be utilized by folks otherwise dependent on public transit to bring them downtown. Otherwise, is someone going to ride the bus downtown to buy a $60 steak at Red Prime?

it will be the last mile when there is commuter rail that travels to Norman/Edmond rapid streetcar to Midwest City and maybe a line to the Airport ...

[BoulderSooner]

When you compare methods of transportation, you should use the same set of standards.

Unless I drive on the turnpike, I don't pay tolls to drive on public roads. Everything is paid for with taxes. The street in front of my house isn't expected to generate revenue. There's nothing wrong with that, but we should use the same standards when judging the streetcar.

The fares charged to ride the streetcar will not cover the costs of operation. It appears they charge fares for two reasons -- first, because people threatened to sue if the buses charged and the streetcars didn't. Second, so they can kick off homeless people who will just stay on the streetcar all day. But the fact that fares won't cover costs of operation isn't an issue, because we don't expect our roads to pay for themselves either.

Now, in terms of development, roads are virtually a necessity (I'm sure you could come up with some SimCity style proposal where we don't have roads, but we didn't build the city that way). And while it's hard to compute the economic value of any individual road, we understand the need for public funding. The streetcar also has a big economic impact. Look at the new developments in Midtown that have appeared since the streetcar line started going in. At least some of these were clearly influenced by the streetcar itself.

Is it the most cost effective form of transportation available? No it is not. But it's certainly arguable that the streetcar produces more economic development than a comparable amount of spending on extra bus lines. Like with other MAPS projects, it's a quality of life improvement, and impossible to separate from other factors when looking at future growth. 20 years from now, if some big company relocates their headquarters to OKC, part of the reason they do it may be because of the improvements from the MAPS programs. They aren't going to say "oh yeah it was the streetcar that made the difference." Companies don't do that. But the streetcar, combined with the park, and the Thunder, and a state jobs incentive program, and and and... they all work together. It's an investment for potential future growth.

very much this

[Pryor Tiger]

It's too soon. But if they think they can pull it off, power to 'em. Adding a soccer stadium no one wants and a streetcar expansion will probably be enough to tank the MAPS brand.

I have a problem when people take their personal opinion and then extrapolate it to everyone else around them. I've heard a lot of support for a Soccer/Multi Use Outdoor stadium being downtown as part of MAPS, and I've heard some dissent. Same with the Streetcar - extending it would add value and use especially out to Capitol Hill and towards OUHSC/Capitol area.

They will have extensive polling in a couple months to help make decisions on what will make MAPS as passable as possible. We will see! For me, I love the stadium and the streetcar extensions as long as other things are addressed such as improved bus system, endowments for social services, to start.

[David]

I have a problem when people take their personal opinion and then extrapolate it to everyone else around them. I've heard a lot of support for a Soccer/Multi Use Outdoor stadium being downtown as part of MAPS, and I've heard some dissent. Same with the Streetcar - extending it would add value and use especially out to Capitol Hill and towards OUHSC/Capitol area.

They will have extensive polling in a couple months to help make decisions on what will make MAPS as passable as possible. We will see! For me, I love the stadium and the streetcar extensions as long as other things are addressed such as improved bus system, endowments for social services, to start.

This. It would be really nice if people would stop declaring what will or will not be passable in the MAPS 4 vote based on polling themselves.

[jedicurt]

I have a problem when people take their personal opinion and then extrapolate it to everyone else around them. I've heard a lot of support for a Soccer/Multi Use Outdoor stadium being downtown as part of MAPS, and I've heard some dissent. Same with the Streetcar - extending it would add value and use especially out to Capitol Hill and towards OUHSC/Capitol area.

They will have extensive polling in a couple months to help make decisions on what will make MAPS as passable as possible. We will see! For me, I love the stadium and the streetcar extensions as long as other things are addressed such as improved bus system, endowments for social services, to start.

yes... i for example don't care about the other projects that are on MAPS4... as long as streetcar expansion, trails, and bike lanes are on it... i'm voting for it... sure i might have opinions about the other projects... but i'm making sure that the projects i support are funded.