Streetcar

[David]

Does anyone happen to have a link or reference to the Chamber's pre-MAPS 3 polling that indicated how popular each potential project was?

[Midtowner]

Does anyone happen to have a link or reference to the Chamber's pre-MAPS 3 polling that indicated how popular each potential project was?

I can tell you that I recall the Gazette did that polling and published it. I'll leave it to you to go to their site and do your own research.

[David]

That was a great starting point, thanks. What I could find that had the results I was looking for was OKC Mayor Mick Cornett plans to educate about $777 million proposal, which had the following in descending order of popularity:

• 50% - Outdoor improvements, like parks and trails
• 50% - Constructing a streetcar system
• 36% - Development of a 70-acre downtown central park
• 27% - New convention center
• 26% - Improvements to the Oklahoma River
• 11% - State Fairgrounds exhibit pavilion space

Which roughly matches my memory, at least to the limited degree that the streetcar was more popular and stuff like the convention center was less. I would have said that the state fairground improvements were unpopular, but 11% is worse than I would have thought.

[shawnw]

I had forgotten that the state fairgrounds was less popular than the convention center.

[HOT ROD]

look at that, the fairgrounds was the LEAST popular - even moreso than the CC.

I think the chamber better be very careful with trying to include an arena for the fairgrounds in MAPS IV. Could be the end of MAPS as we know it.

it's time for the fairgrounds to start funding their own projects with the revenue they generate - since they claim they have such a huge impact on the OKC economy. ...

[Zorba]

The last time I personally looked into this issue, 14% was the average maximum return on operational cost for public transit systems regardless of mode. I may be recalling incorrectly, but 12% was the maximum average return locally regardless of mode.

We collect fares for three primary reasons-

1. To enable us to have a mechanism to boot people off the train if they are causing problems and are not paying

2. Ed Shadid threatened a lawsuit against the city if the streetcar was made free but the bus system was not

3. We have a transit system director who was formerly the system's chief accountant and has an equity philosophy- "that if people are paying for it they will value it more".


Many systems that do "poorly" as described in other posts also charge fares. Kansas City, by contrast, does not and sees significant returns in increased sidewalk level business activity. They regard their systems as an economic revenue generator with return occurring through increased sales-tax collections.

Thanks for the info. I can see the argument that people don't value or take care of things they didn't pay for. But I don't really think that really fits in with the current street car system. I think making it easy to hope on and off would counteract the not-valuing side.

I am glad it wasn't just an attempt to make it pay for itself though, no body ever asks for roads to pay for themselves (except OTA, of course).

[Zorba]

BART in San Francisco is a great example of that. And fwiw, that system barely passed its multi-county vote as well.

I think this is one huge problem with PT in the US, there are just too many damn jurisdictions that can stop it or try to freeload. I know this is a problem in DC and Atlanta. I don't know how it works in Europe, but the US needs to figure out a way of preventing tiny individual cities or counties from blocking PT projects that will benefit entire metro areas.

[Zorba]

Wasn’t the interstate system partially funded or at least endorsed by the DoD?

Yes, because it allows the rapid movement of military equipment and people.

[Rover]

Yes, because it allows the rapid movement of military equipment and people.

I don’t believe the rationale was to move military troops and equipment as it was to evacuate citizens of cities in the event of nuclear attack. It was not funded by DoD but lawmakers used the national defense argument to get it passed as it was not universally popular at the time, but fear of attack was.

[LakeEffect]

I don’t believe the rationale was to move military troops and equipment as it was to evacuate citizens of cities in the event of nuclear attack. It was not funded by DoD but lawmakers used the national defense argument to get it passed as it was not universally popular at the time, but fear of attack was.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/interstatemyths.cfm

[Rover]

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/interstatemyths.cfm

Thanks for posting.

I believe law makers at the time used the evacuation argument to bolster their argument. Isn’t the first or last time politicians wrongfully used the claim of national security or national emergency to get fear to drive an infrastructure development project. Sound familiar? Lol

[jn1780]

So anyone else noticing that whenever a streetcar is nearby, the lights won't change for the crosswalks? Seems to be the case for Oklahoma and Reno. Even though the streetcar has already passed, the light won't change because it is at the next station lowering its boom before continuing down Reno. I wonder if they can lower the transponder range at certain lights.

[shawnw]

I believe I've had this happen to me, but not positive

[Plutonic Panda]

Thanks for posting.

I believe law makers at the time used the evacuation argument to bolster their argument. Isn’t the first or last time politicians wrongfully used the claim of national security or national emergency to get fear to drive an infrastructure development project. Sound familiar? Lol

Would the interstate system not be an added benifit for our military during an emergency?

[stile99]

Would the interstate system not be an added benifit for our military during an emergency?

Whether it would or not is quite irrelevant when discussing the original purpose. Example, Listerine is generally accepted to be an excellent mouthwash. This doesn't change the fact that it was originally intended as a surgical disinfectant. And while corn flakes might be a delicious start to your morning, that wasn't their original intent.

BTW, this is the streetcar thread. I'm not quite sure it's the best place to discuss interstate urban legends already twice disproven.

[Rover]

Would the interstate system not be an added benifit for our military during an emergency?

Maybe, unless the interstates get jammed with civilians escaping an area. Depends on the kind of emergency. If you declared martial law and told people they couldn't use the interstates then I guess it becomes part of the military emergency apparatus. Doubtful that would happen, and if it does.... well we have existential type problems.

[Zorba]

I don’t believe the rationale was to move military troops and equipment as it was to evacuate citizens of cities in the event of nuclear attack. It was not funded by DoD but lawmakers used the national defense argument to get it passed as it was not universally popular at the time, but fear of attack was.

Yeah, I didn't mean the DoD paid for it, just supported its passing.

[Urban Pioneer]

Thanks for the info. I can see the argument that people don't value or take care of things they didn't pay for. But I don't really think that really fits in with the current street car system. I think making it easy to hope on and off would counteract the not-valuing side.

I am glad it wasn't just an attempt to make it pay for itself though, no body ever asks for roads to pay for themselves (except OTA, of course).

I agree with you. The city would recoup that modest expense through increased tax revenues imhop and stimulate better land use and pedestrian activity. It’s a mistake to charge fares in that context.

[Anonymous.]

Do all the cars run during all operating hours? Like for instance on a Monday night between 10pm and midnight, are all 5 on the route? Or just enough to keep up with the 17min times.

[Urban Pioneer]

Typically we run no more than five cars at a time with two in reserve. Average operation requires a minimum of three on the D line and one on the B line.

[Ross MacLochness]

Happy to report that today the Streetcar I was riding after lunch had people sitting at both ends and several folks standing in the middle. I love seeing it so full! Weather seems to be an important variable in the ridership equation. I expect that we'll continue to see strong ridership through the spring, and even stronger ridership as projects such as the park, omni, cc, heartland, midtown hotel, various midtown condo projects, Okla contemporary etc., come online.

[OKC Guy]

Happy to report that today the Streetcar I was riding after lunch had people sitting at both ends and several folks standing in the middle. I love seeing it so full! Weather seems to be an important variable in the ridership equation. I expect that we'll continue to see strong ridership through the spring, and even stronger ridership as projects such as the park, omni, cc, heartland, midtown hotel, various midtown condo projects, Okla contemporary etc., come online.

Great to hear. Someone I know who drives thru area every morning, lunch and afternoon told me they are mostly empty at those times.

When will city release Mar ridership numbers? I expect them to be up compared to Feb (20k) and hopefully better than Jan (44k). I think those are the numbers but could be wrong

[Ross MacLochness]

Great to hear. Someone I know who drives thru area every morning, lunch and afternoon told me they are mostly empty at those times.

When will city release Mar ridership numbers? I expect them to be up compared to Feb (20k) and hopefully better than Jan (44k). I think those are the numbers but could be wrong

I walk around downtown almost all day every day and those pesky automobiles are almost always completely empty except for the driver!

Gosh and the freeways and roads are pretty empty during non peak times!

When will the city release data showing all this auto oriented sprawl was worth it? Will we make enough in tax revenue down the line to be able to maintain all of our underutilized driving space?

See being a troll is easy!

[OKC Guy]

I walk around downtown almost all day every day and those pesky automobiles are almost always completely empty except for the driver!

Gosh and the freeways and roads are pretty empty during non peak times!

When will the city release data showing all this auto oriented sprawl was worth it? Will we make enough in tax revenue down the line to be able to maintain all of our underutilized driving space?

See being a troll is easy!

Well, seeing how this thread is about Streetcar and that we have a ton of road threads - I think its obvoius who trolled this thread.

[Plutonic Panda]

I walk around downtown almost all day every day and those pesky automobiles are almost always completely empty except for the driver!

Gosh and the freeways and roads are pretty empty during non peak times!

When will the city release data showing all this auto oriented sprawl was worth it? Will we make enough in tax revenue down the line to be able to maintain all of our underutilized driving space?

See being a troll is easy!

This is not my experience at all with the freeways in OKC. The sprawl is worth it because most new investment and growth is occurring in the suburbs. The data is already there.