Streetcar

[David]

Regarding overall ridership numbers, a significant drop is to be expected with fares and the confusion surrounding them. There is also a direct correlation between high-ridership days and weather conditions. As weather operations improve, red lights go away, and the city operates the streetcar more efficiently, it will be interesting to see how things level out.

Yep. Spring and summer are really going to be where this gets tested. This is just anecdotal, but every time I have been downtown recently in nice weather I see plenty of people riding.

[jedicurt]

Some hate to hear the other side of topics, so its best you bowed out.

Thanks for the heads up I will likely lose sleep over this. Was hoping you could answer the $2,500,000 questions.

because like with every other time you get into a back and forth is someone on this site... you got an answer, you didn't like it, so you chose to ignore it.... and this is not be deflecting (cause i know you hate that) that is me providing the context of what is actually going on. you got the answer as to why they are spending $2.5 million on spare parts, because it is common, and that is what other cities with this type of system do... so, since they do it, we decided to do it as well, to hopefully save on time and speed of repairs. this has been told to you several times in the past few pages of this thread... you reject this idea... great... but it's still the answer, there isn't another one.

Can we all now move on? it's a gorgeous day... hopefully some people will be using the streetcar this afternoon!

[baralheia]

I don’t even keep up with any really close streetcar stuff, but it’s pretty clear to me that this isn’t a “three months in, everything is broken, we need parts” situation. It’s a “we got extra funds, so let’s warehouse stuff in case we need it in 5+ years and then use it right away without having to order or machine something” opportunity.

Bingo. That's exactly correct.

[OKC Guy]

So how did we get here?

Going back we were all told light prioritization was needed badly.

So one or two months ago there was a meeting and this is where money was again asked for the lights system.

But they did not approve funding all the lights at once I think the ask was $640k and they got $200k.

So then outrage ensued and people asking why not was funded as it was a top priority need.

Fast forward to last week and they funded the rest of lights.

And here is where I had (and still have) a beef. It took screaming and hollering just to get lights approved in 2 meetings. The screaming went on for way longer though this was ID’d long ago. So it took a long long time (years actually) to approve $640k for something needed “NOW”! And yet out of blue we spent $2,500,000 on spare parts with no to little discussion for parts not needed for years? I posted the minutes and link too. This $2,500,000 just popped up and presto, approved!

So everyone claimed we needed lights approved and it was like pulling teeth to get it over 2 appovals. And we approved $2,500,000 in one meeting with not even a whipser? And we won’t need these spares for years because we got spares (and warranties) in contract.

And I’m the crazy one for bringing this up? Don’t you see how bad this looks when you compare the 2?

$640k light priority - took forever and 2 approvals

$2,500,000 spares. Approved in one meeting no advance discussion and not needed for years.

[jedicurt]

So how did we get here?

Going back we were all told light prioritization was needed badly.

So one or two months ago there was a meeting and this is where money wasagain asked for the lights system.

But they did not approve funding all the lights, I think the ask was $640k and they got $200k.

So then outrage ensued and people asking why not was funded.

Fast forward to last week and they funded the rest of lights.

And here is where I had (and still have) a beef. It took screaming and hollering just to get lights approved in 2 meetings. The screaming went on for way longer though thhis was ID’d long ago. So it took a long long time (years actually) to approve $640k for something needed “NOW”! And yet out of blue we spent $2,500,000 on spare parts with no to little discussion ahead of time? I posted the minutes and link too.

So everyone claimed we needed lights approved and it was like pulling terth to get it over 2 appovals. And we approved $2,500,000 in one meeting with not even a whipser? And we won’t need these spares for years because we got spares (and warranties) in contract.

And I’m the crazy one for bringing this up? Don’t you see how bad this looks when you compare the 2?

$640k light priority - took forever and 2 approvals

$2,500,000 spares. Approved in one meeting no advance discussion and not needed for years.

no... never said you were crazy for bringing it up... but there isn't another answer... the city had no issue with the spare parts, because they probably had someone call up a few other cities, and ask them if they kept a bunch of spare parts... they said yes, so they just assumed this was something that needed to be done.

that also was mentioned as a reason as to why this was happening. is it dumb that the system sometimes works this way? yes... but that is sometimes how government works, you have to fight tooth and nail for things that should be simple to approve and things that sometimes don't make as much sense at the time pass through easily and without question.

again... that's the answer... there isn't anything else to say... bringing up again and again and again isn't going to change what the answer is... because it is what it is.

the reason people have started to put you on ignore, or call you a troll is you keep bring up the same thing and fighting with people, just because you don't like the answer, or just ignore it and claim that one hasn't been given to you.

[baralheia]

So how did we get here?

Going back we were all told light prioritization was needed badly.

So one or two months ago there was a meeting and this is where money was again asked for the lights system.

But they did not approve funding all the lights at once I think the ask was $640k and they got $200k.

So then outrage ensued and people asking why not was funded as it was a top priority need.

Fast forward to last week and they funded the rest of lights.

And here is where I had (and still have) a beef. It took screaming and hollering just to get lights approved in 2 meetings. The screaming went on for way longer though this was ID’d long ago. So it took a long long time (years actually) to approve $640k for something needed “NOW”! And yet out of blue we spent $2,500,000 on spare parts with no to little discussion for parts not needed for years? I posted the minutes and link too. This $2,500,000 just popped up and presto, approved!

So everyone claimed we needed lights approved and it was like pulling teeth to get it over 2 appovals. And we approved $2,500,000 in one meeting with not even a whipser? And we won’t need these spares for years because we got spares (and warranties) in contract.

And I’m the crazy one for bringing this up? Don’t you see how bad this looks when you compare the 2?

$640k light priority - took forever and 2 approvals

$2,500,000 spares. Approved in one meeting no advance discussion and not needed for years.

Context. Context is everything. If you read back through the thread, the streetcar committee has gotten a lot of pushback from city planning / traffic engineers on implementing streetcar priority at intersections - and they have been getting this pushback for a long, long time. The city's engineers prefer a "wait and see" method of only addressing problems if/when they arise, without listening to the experts that have been telling them for a long time that signal prioritization is hugely important to maintain the on-time performance of the streetcar, and it needs to be done all at once to ensure that public expectations are met. That's why there was such a fight to get that funding approved. However, there has been no comparable pushback to ensuring that the Streetcar and Embark has spares on hand to ensure high availability and high reliability of each of the seven streetcar vehicles and their supporting infrastructure.

[Laramie]

Here are ideas I've submitted so far:

Stadium on riverfront ($125 million)
Arena replacement at State Fair Park ($125 million)
Streetcar future expansion study & funding ($100 million)
Neighborhood entrance markers, planters, lighting ($200 million budget)
Space Tower ($25 million budget) near AICCM or State Fair Park

Aquarium, Aquatic & Wellness Center Complex ($225 million budget) at Zoo or Riverfront
Endowment Fund ($100 million budget) to fund repairs, upgrades & operational expense shortfalls.

Grand total $900 million for MAPS 4.

Appreciate that for the 1st time OKC citizens/voters have been asked to submit ideas for a MAPS initiative.

[Laramie]

Will send in a final idea for MAPS 4:

Chesapeake Energy Arena upgrades/renovation ($75 million budget)

Grand total $975 million for MAPS 4; projected collections over 8.5 years

[stile99]

the reason people have started to put you on ignore, or call you a troll is you keep bring up the same thing and fighting with people, just because you don't like the answer, or just ignore it and claim that one hasn't been given to you.

That and the pattern of claiming to be attacked when he's the one attacking others.

[OKC Guy]

Context. Context is everything. If you read back through the thread, the streetcar committee has gotten a lot of pushback from city planning / traffic engineers on implementing streetcar priority at intersections - and they have been getting this pushback for a long, long time. The city's engineers prefer a "wait and see" method of only addressing problems if/when they arise, without listening to the experts that have been telling them for a long time that signal prioritization is hugely important to maintain the on-time performance of the streetcar, and it needs to be done all at once to ensure that public expectations are met. That's why there was such a fight to get that funding approved. However, there has been no comparable pushback to ensuring that the Streetcar and Embark has spares on hand to ensure high availability and high reliability of each of the seven streetcar vehicles and their supporting infrastructure.

Thank you for a well thought out reply.

To my point I understand traffic dept put up resistance on lights and rightfully so, its good to have someone watching and questioning expenses. It was also good they approved the lights after a lot of static. So in the end we had oversight and approval.

To the parts thats where my beef is. Its 5 times the money and no one is oversighting it. We had no urgent need for parts, as I posted the contract details we got spares with our initial spend. And we also got a warranty.

I have read the thread and minutes and nowhere is it saying we urgently needed these spare parts. Posters are speculating on why they think we need them but this came out of the blue. And its a lot of money. To my point the lights affected another city dept and was questioned. But there is no seperate parts (maintenance) dept to question the parts in a similar fashion other than the SC maint team itself asking for them.

I simply questioned how it was so easy to approve parts with no discussion or inmediate need yet the lights have been talked about for months and longer and still took 2 meetings to get approved.

No one will ever convince me my questioning this large outlay is wrong. We are in 3rd month of go live and if we approved so much parts money this easy now, my fear is we will sneak in parts expendutures routinely without anyone providing proper oversight or questioning needs.

The parts issue is not directed at you or any poster I was simply questioning the fast approval amd asking if any of the board insiders could direct me to the meeting/s where it was ever questioned or addressed. I posted the link to 2017 where the spares and warranty were addressed but then this newest approval came up suddenly and approved without any pushback or oversight from another agency.

Its fair to question it and not sure why some posters took it personally. The very first reply after my question was a snide remark form a committee member and it just went sideways after that. Had he replied respectfully with facts it may have avoided some of the bad vibes.

[OKCbyTRANSFER]

As it has been mentioned, the MAPS projects we're provided some extra funds, including the SC, and they made the decision to purchase parts for future use. Buy now, buy later, the powers that be made an investment, hopefully to reduce downtime if and when a repair comes up.

[OKC Guy]

As it has been mentioned, the MAPS projects we're provided some extra funds, including the SC, and they made the decision to purchase parts for future use. Buy now, buy later, the powers that be made an investment, hopefully to reduce downtime if and when a repair comes up.

My beef is the mentality of spending money just because its there not due to a need. Posters speculate a need but the manufacturer provided extra spare parts they felt were needed (and we paid for as part of deal). Because they also provide a warranty their recommendation would carry more weight than non mechanics praying the additional parts purchased just so happen to be what may be needed years down the road.

Are any of the voting members certified street car mechanics?

And if they knew street cars would break down on top of what was purchased that would indicate we bought the wrong streetcar system.

I am trying to be logical but its $2,500,000 uneeded expense. Why the rush to spend this money. What if we discover some other more pressing need? Maybe an app or other method to help ID wait times?

Its pure specualtion what parts will break. And warranty should cover losses if the contract was vetted properly.

Put up against the immediate need for lights fix this spend was handled so differently and I am still waiting for my councilman to reply. Which is not good its taking him so long but maybe when he checks records that I actually vote he will get back to me soon.

I have no beef with the way lights were handled and wish parts had seen the same scrutiny.

[shawnw]

If it wasn't this, it'd be something else. There's an excess of MAPS funds. It has to be spent on MAPS projects. If the streetcar subcommittee said "nah, send it back", then that 2.5M would have gone to another MAPS program and spent some other way. If the streetcar subcommittee took the money and didn't spend it on parts, they would have spent it on something else, maybe on an extra block of track towards capitol hill just to get folks talking about extensions, who knows. The option you want, not spending 2.5M at all, was not available.

[catch22]

Shawn you’re wasting your time with this guy.

[BoulderSooner]

Appreciate that for the 1st time OKC citizens/voters have been asked to submit ideas for a MAPS initiative.

WHAT?? that was the process in MAPS3

[OKCbyTRANSFER]

Shawn you’re wasting your time with this guy.

I agree, I think it's time to pull a "catch move" and bow out.

[Urban Pioneer]

To put it quite simply, our committee trusts City Employees and the EMBARK Staff to tell us what they need to be successful. Jason Febrache, the EMBARK / COTPA Director, was the system's accountant before he became the director. The person who operates the streetcar system was formerly on MAPS staff. Consultants don't always get it 100% right. In fact, its doubtful they ever get it 100% right. Since our system was approved ten years ago, Brookeville has completed Dallas, Detroit, Milwaukee, and others. Transit agencies talk to one another. EMBARK struggles every year to maximize the dollar and keep their annual budget balanced while constantly striving to improve transit service. As I stated in previous posts, our original ask was around $6.5 million. in the spirit of cooperation with other committees, we reduced that to allow more funds for other projects. The new budget is an allocation so that the overall surplus funds budget can be programmed and timed, not an actual disbursement. Some of the earlier assertions are completely false. A cursory examination of minutes going back over a year or watching video tapings of the meetings will easily demonstrate these matters have been in discussion since it was announced that we would have a surplus that would allow every project to reexamine targets, goals, oversights, and bring them into proper alignment. But in the end, we trust our City of OKC Employees to tell us what they need to be successful.

[Urban Pioneer]

Also, since the weather has been improved, I have observed a very apparent spike in ridership at nearly all hours expect early morning.

[stile99]

Also, since the weather has been improved, I have observed a very apparent spike in ridership at nearly all hours expect early morning.

Shhhhh! Facts like these don't help the narrative some people want to push. That being that the streetcar has already failed, and not that ridership declined over one month, the month that coincidentally is when fares started AND the coldest month of the year.

[hoya]

I was actually very encouraged that ridership only dropped by half in February. Not only was it the worst month of the year, weather wise, but also we started charging money to ride it, and December/January were heavy tourist times downtown when people were riding the streetcar just because it was the thing to do.

Dropping only 50% seemed like a big success to me.

[Bullbear]

what all the people on social media sharing the story and celebrating the " I told you so moment" failed to note. was that the drop was anticipated and not really surprising.

[Laramie]

Passed one of the Bermuda green streetcar around 10:30 a.m. yesterday; would estimate there where 15 to 20 passengers at the most as I passed thru the core.

Great signage as you drive up N.Phillips crossing N.E. 8th to N.E. 10th, impressed with all the various structures like OU Medical Center construction, the new OU Academic Office Tower, College of Allied Health and the Children's Hospital.

The streetcar could probably serve this area well; hope the area become part of a study for potential streetcar expansion.

[HOT ROD]

Then they shouldn't leave the stop without knowing the next track block is clear. It is stupid to make people stay on a stopped street car for nearly an hour when there is zero danger in letting them out. Especially if it is a frequent event. It isn't at all the same as a normal rail or monorail (are you seriously comparing getting out of the street car to getting out of a monorail? Seriously?). Please provide any logic for how it would be dangerous to let people off outside of a station when stopped for a long period of time.

But if people start missing things because they are stopped in the streetcar, no one will ride it.

Wholeheartedly agree!

[Ross MacLochness]

Just hopped on and off a packed streetcar. It's a Tuesday! (granted, a nice tuesday during spring break, but still..)

[Midtowner]

Just hopped on and off a packed streetcar. It's a Tuesday! (granted, a nice tuesday during spring break, but still..)

Same. And it felt like we weren't spending as long at stops no one was wanting to get on or off at. Progress.