Edmond couple arrested under city's ‘social host' ordinance

[Midtowner]

How are drinking and shooting meth/heroine even in the same ballpark?

We're talking about kids drinking in safe places to protect them, not providing them needles. Pretty much all teenagers drink. I sure as heck did.. I was playing in bars for free booze before I was 20. If you want me to, I'll go find some data... despite the fact that 50 states make it illegal for teens to drink as well as for adults to supply it, the majority of kiddos drink. What does that tell you?

... and to attack your analogies a bit, the majority of kids do not use needle-type drugs.. although the majority probably smoke pot. As far as it being "laced with something," that's fairly rare, while HIV tainted needles really aren't, nor are alcohol related deaths.

But since you mention it, the government does sponsor needle exchange programs for just that purpose

I do see what you're getting at -- the moral aspect -- and I can see your point, but I just don't think it's so black and white.

The bottom line is that with this law, basically the same amount of kids will drink. They will just do so away from the supervision of adults. In doing so, the number of alcohol related fatalities will increase due to them being on the road afterwards or them consuming too much and being afraid to seek medical attention for fear of legal problems. I think this law will kill people. How is that a good thing?

[kmf563]

Yes, please find some data. I would like to see the data that shows how providing alcohol to minors has reduced the amount of alcohol related deaths. I would also like to see the data that shows a relationship between the amount of children who drink at home and their likelihood of doing drugs. Just because you drank at an early age and didn't die or experiment with drugs doesn't mean that it isn't a reality. Some people smoke until they are 85 years old...that doesn't mean smoking doesn't cause cancer. My point is, personal experiences generally are not legitimate resources. You and I may be able to recognize the larger dangers out there, but again, teenagers can not. And the amount of teenagers that do drugs is higher than you may think. No, they aren't using as many needles as before because they are snorting it or smoking it.

[Tim]

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out studies indicating that the human brain does not reach maturity until the early twenties. Science has shown that teenagers simply are not physiologically equipped to consider consequences the same way adults do. This is and interesting little paper! http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/juvjus/Adolescence.pdf

[kmf563]

Good point Tim. Here are some stats for you guys too -

Alcohol is a factor in the four leading causes of death among persons ages 10 to 24: (1) motor-vehicle crashes, (2) unintentional injuries, (3) homicide, and (4) suicide.

Young people who begin drinking before age 15 are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependence than those who begin drinking at age 21.

More than 67% of young people who start drinking before the age of 15 will try an illicit drug. Children who drink are 7.5 times more likely to use any illicit drug, more than 22 times more likely to use marijuana, and 50 times more likely to use cocaine than children who never drank.

Teens under 15 who have ever consumed alcohol are twice as likely to have sex as those who have not. Nearly 4 in 10 (39%) sexually active teens who use alcohol have had sexual intercourse with four or more individuals.

Underage drinking costs Americans nearly $53 billion annually. If this cost were shared equally by each congressional district, the amount would total more than $120 million per district.

Researchers estimate that alcohol use is implicated in one to two-thirds of sexual assault and acquaintance or "date" rape cases among teens and college students.

In 1999, 21% of 15- to 20-year-old drivers who were killed in crashes were intoxicated.

[Easy180]

Good point Tim. Here are some stats for you guys too -

Alcohol is a factor in the four leading causes of death among persons ages 10 to 24: (1) motor-vehicle crashes, (2) unintentional injuries, (3) homicide, and (4) suicide.

In 1999, 21% of 15- to 20-year-old drivers who were killed in crashes were intoxicated.

I think these tidbits actually help solidify Mid's saving lifes argument

I'm one of those who think they will do it anyway...I was an underage drinker along with a large % of my high school

I would much rather these kids be holed up at someone's house with adult supervision than out on the streets swerving into my lane

[Midtowner]

I think these tidbits actually help solidify Mid's saving lifes argument

I'm one of those who think they will do it anyway...I was an underage drinker along with a large % of my high school

I would much rather these kids be holed up at someone's house with adult supervision than out on the streets swerving into my lane

That's what I'm pretty much hammering at. I'll do my own research on it and get back to the thread though. The tough thing about researching any controversial subject is the fact that nearly all of the statistics which come up are put out by "causes." In the case of alcohol, I can't think of any "cause" group which is in favor of giving alcohol to minors, let alone any group which has really funded a study where the result wasn't presupposed.

[kmf563]

ah....I forgot to include this. Actually, my point is that providing alcohol at home INCREASES these accidents. This is a tad long, but it's an interesting article which makes my point.

"Tis the Season
Allowing Holiday Drinking by Teens Sets Dangerous Precedent
by Stephen Wallace, M.S.Ed.

Dancing and prancing through Jingle Bell Square, more than a few seasonal revelers mistake alcohol consumption for holiday celebration – teens included. Following the lead of influential adults, many young people are tempted, even encouraged, to finish up the old and ring in the new by, well, downing a few.

According to a new Teens Today study from SADD and Liberty Mutual Group, nearly half of high school teens (45 percent) say their parents allow them to drink at home, including almost one in three who say they are allowed to do so to mark special occasions, such as holidays.

Where’s the harm in that? Let’s make a list.

The younger a child is when he starts to drink, the higher the chances he will have alcohol-related problems later in life.
Alcohol use by teens affects still-developing cognitive abilities and impairs memory and learning.
Teens who drink are more likely to commit or be the victim of violence (including sexual assault) and to experience stress, depression, and suicidal thoughts.
So, why the inaction on the part of otherwise caring adults? Among the likely reasons is a longstanding myth that allowing teens to drink at home will make it less likely they will drink elsewhere.

It is also widely believed that "teaching teens to drink responsibly" to celebrate a holiday or other important event will demystify alcohol and lead to more thoughtful, less destructive behavior.

Wishful thinking, through and through.
In truth, teens who are allowed to drink alcohol at home are significantly more likely to drink with their friends. "Even if only on special occasions?" asked an incredulous mother during a recent presentation of the new research results. Yes, even if only on special occasions.

Here’s what the data say.

Among high school teens, those who tend to avoid alcohol are more than twice as likely than those who repeatedly use alcohol to say their parents never let them drink at home (84 percent vs. 40 percent).
More than half (57 percent) of high school teens who report their parents allow them to drink at home, even once in a while, say they drink with their friends, as compared to just 14 percent of teens who say their parents don’t let them drink.
This carry-over effect can be explained by a simple tendency to bring attitudes in line with behaviors so as to reduce the psychological discomfort caused by conflicting information: It’s okay to drink with my friends since I drink at home!

Also common among teens is seeing things in black and white, particularly when it comes to justifying personal behavior: If adults drink to celebrate the holidays, why shouldn’t I?

Rationalizing or not, young people use alcohol more frequently, and more heavily, than all other drugs combined. Teens Today research reveals that drinking increases significantly between the sixth and seventh grades; that the average age for teens to start drinking is 13 years old; and that by 12th grade, more than four in five teens are drinking.

That constitutes an epidemic – one likely only to grow during this celebratory season.

The silver lining in this holiday cloud can be found in widespread agreement among teens that their parents are significant forces when it comes to decisions about alcohol. According to Teens Today, almost seven in ten high school teens (66 percent) rate mom and dad as most influential in their decisions not to drink.

But influence cuts two ways. By allowing underage drinking during the holidays, adults deprive teens of the unambiguous, common sense guidelines they need to make good choices all year long.

It is clear that parents who talk with their teens about underage drinking, set expectations for behavior, and enforce consequences for violating the rules are significantly less likely to have children who use alcohol.

But there are other important reasons many teens say they choose not to drink, including deference to the law, chance of injury to themselves or others, loss of control, impact on academic and/or athletic performance, setting an example for siblings, and fitting in with friends who don’t drink. Each of these is fodder for important parent-teen dialogue – both during the holidays and into the New Year – about the appropriate role of alcohol in society and the dangers it poses to young lives.

After all, ‘tis the season."

[Midtowner]

The stats there are misleading. the article, I think wants as to assume from the text that drinking = binge drinking. That's simply not the case.

Are people who drink more likely than those who don't to binge drink?

Duh.

I think the article assumes an awful lot and construes the stats in favor of the position it's supporting. It's hardly an unbiased article. I'll takes some time later on and reply thoughtfully to this.

[kmf563]

The stats are misleading? Wow. Journal of Substance Abuse, Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse, Columbia University, Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, and National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey.

They are all wrong??

I highly doubt Stephen's information was assumed in his article. You must not be aware of who he is. Here is a short bio for you.

"Stephen Wallace, M.S. Ed.
Stephen Wallace has broad experience as a school psychologist and adolescent counselor. He serves as Director of Counseling and Counselor Training at the Cape Cod Sea Camps, Chairman and CEO of SADD, and Adjunct Professor of Psychology at Mount Ida College. Stephen is a researcher, writer, and speaker who focuses on youth development and decision-making. He is a regular contributor to regional and national broadcasts and his bimonthly columns appear in newspapers across the country."

[Midtowner]

SADD.. yeah, see.. bias.

The stats aren't necessarily wrong -- but the conclusions are often either common sense or misleadingly stated as shown in my previous example.

[kmf563]

Note to self.....my kids aren't allowed to hang out at midtowner's house.

[Karried]

LOL ... Now, I need a drink.

[Tim]

Is your brain fully developed?

[PUGalicious]

Is your brain fully developed?

Who are you referring to? There are so many choices!

(I'm kidding! Geeeesh!)

[OkieKAS]

Despite years of zero-tolerance messages from government and prevention groups, many parents choose to allow their children to drink at home while stressing themes of moderation and responsibility.

One supporter of this harm-reduction approach to alcohol education is psychologist Stanton Peele. "Every civilized non-psychotic human being has offered their children alcohol," said Peele. "We always approach appetitive behaviors in a moralistic and restrictive way: don't do drugs, don't smoke, don't drink."
===========================================


Stanton Peele is a MORON........M O R O N

I guess in Peele's views, that would make me an uncivilized psychotic human being because I never offered any of my 3 children alcohol. Even at 25 and 30 years old they don't even like for me to see them drink a beer. I never hammered the DON'T do this or DON'T do that.....into my sons, they were granted the leeway to make their own independent decisions and they always knew that they were accountable for their individual actions.

My father was an ravaged alcoholic and in 1966, my sister, Lin, age 9, was shot and killed at our home, where 8 children lived, during an incident of domestic violence associated with alcohol. I was 7 years old at the time and I witnessed her death, so I never had to hammer into into my sons' heads about alcohol or abuse.

The truth was never kept from them. They were taught to weigh the circumstances and make a choice that they were willing to live with, for the remainder of their lives. They don't engage in un-protected sex, either. I was, both, open and very honest with them.

Life is far too important to take risks with. I always felt that it was my responsibility to raise the kids I chose to bring into this life.

I would have never abided myself offering them anything that might sway their own beliefs. They were taught to be true to themselves. Their decisions will ultimately impact their own lives and perhaps someone else's.

They have done very well, to say the least. I am not saying they do not drink, of course, they can and do, but they respect the substance of alcohol and don't abuse it.

Had they ever asked me for a drink, I would have said NO. It was not necessarily a moral issue, just one made by the circumstances that were brought into my own life. They were real enough for my sons to accept, also.

I don't go around selling any part of my soul for any reason.

Besides....my precious sister, Lin, lived on in me. I am not a religious zealot, but I am deeply spiritual.

Don't harm a living soul, essentially your own.

--Kathy

[foodiefan]

it's not always the parents that are making the alcohol available. . . anyone heard of fake ID's?? . . .a "friend" or older brother/sister who is 21. And it's ok in college??. . .last time I calculated, most kids going to college straight out of high school are 18. . . which gives them 3 years before they are 21.

I'm REALLY "old school" (my "boys" are 30 and 31). . . so, while I do NOT approve of parents providing the alcohol or a place to party (and I did not do so when my boys were in high school), there always seemed to be someone's parents who were out of town. . .and there is always "that field" someone mentioned. . .with NO adults around. There just aren't any cut and dried answers. . .like so many things in life.

[Karried]

Is your brain fully developed?

lol.. It was and then I had kids.. now I'm more like a fully functional two year old!

I can't remember a thing!

[blabare]

Ugh... and the debate goes on. You can tell your kids 300 times not to drink or smoke, but the reality is most are going to try it. And you'll probably have no idea its going on. I know my parents didn't

[kmf563]

Okiekas - That is a really unfortunate and sad story. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. That probably wasn't easy.

[Edmond_Outsider]

Research shows a direct correlation between the raising of drinking ages in the US and bad drinking habits. There are many and complex reasons for this. However, there is a significant body of research that supports the idea that kids will learn more responsible habits if they begin drinking in a family setting.

There is lots of data to back this view, here is one:

Drinking with Parents is “Protective” of Alcohol Abuse
by David J. Hanson, Ph.D.

Teenagers who report drinking alcohol with their parents are less likely than others to have either consumed alcohol or abused it in recent weeks according to a nation-wide study of over 6,200 teenagers in 242 communities across the U.S.

Drinking alcohol with parents “may help teach them responsible drinking habits or extinguish some of the ‘novelty’ or ‘excitement’ of drinking” according to senior researcher Dr. Kristie Long Foley of the School of Medicine at Wake Forest University. Dr. Foley describes drinking with parents as a “protective” behavior.

This finding is to be expected. Those societies and cultural groups with very high rates of drinking but very low rates of alcohol-related problems have certain common keys to success. One such protective key is that in such groups young people learn about moderate drinking from their parents and they do so from an early age.

In addition to teaching young people both how to drink and how not to drink, these groups avoid stigmatizing alcohol and strictly prohibit the abuse of alcohol.

The study was funded by the National Evaluation of the Enforcing Underage Drinking Laws Program.

Foley, Kristie Long, et al. Adults’ approval and adolescents’ alcohol use. Journal of Adolescent Healthy, 2004, 35(4), 345-346.

[Jonboyinget]

I went to high school in Edmond, and when we had parties we would drive out to Luther, OK and have huge field parties. After the party people would sleep there or drive home drunk for about a 45 minute drive there were many accidents, and luckily nobody died.
What these parents were doing is trying to control a safe environment for their kids to drink at, even know it can't really be safe if underage kids are drinking it is a better alternative than perhaps someone getting killed. All the parents did wrong was allow too many kids to come over especially in a town like Edmond where the cops are on every corner and searching for kids drinking.
When I was in college in 2004 we had a block party in Stillwater just off the strip where I lived, and there were hundreds of underage drinkers on my property. I wasn't even at my house and the next morning cops came to give me a ticket for maintaining a place contrary to law $450. The only reason i got the ticket is because my name was on the bills being that I was the only one with credit (not fair). I didn't get arrested but still that's a big chunk of change for a college student.

[OU Adonis]

The legal drinking age in the USA is a joke in my opinion. I am generally a conservative guy when it comes to laws, but I am progressive on this one. The fact we can arm people for war but say their brains aren't developed enough to distingush consenquences of drinking is stupid to say the least.

I am sure people continue to develop in their 20s. Heck I am in my 30s and I might still be developing a brain. But to say 21 is the magical age for them to drink but everything else is 18 is a joke.

And FYI - there is no federal law that says you have to be 21 to drink. Thats the states decision. The federal government will screw the state however if they allow for people to drink under 21. (I.E withdraw funds to the state for highways)

It all comes down to parenting and raising someone right.

Did you realize that the only countries that have a legal age to drink as high is 21 is the USA and some islamic countries? Nice company to be in when it comes to fair laws.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I went to high school in Edmond, and when we had parties we would drive out to Luther, OK and have huge field parties. After the party people would sleep there or drive home drunk for about a 45 minute drive there were many accidents, and luckily nobody died.
What these parents were doing is trying to control a safe environment for their kids to drink at, even know it can't really be safe if underage kids are drinking it is a better alternative than perhaps someone getting killed. All the parents did wrong was allow too many kids to come over especially in a town like Edmond where the cops are on every corner and searching for kids drinking.
When I was in college in 2004 we had a block party in Stillwater just off the strip where I lived, and there were hundreds of underage drinkers on my property. I wasn't even at my house and the next morning cops came to give me a ticket for maintaining a place contrary to law $450. The only reason i got the ticket is because my name was on the bills being that I was the only one with credit (not fair). I didn't get arrested but still that's a big chunk of change for a college student.

I (heart) Stillwater. Good times.

[rugbybrado]

I think way too many parents are naive and don't think their little angels drink. I know I grew up that way... I am not saying its OK to give minors alcohol, but I guess this is about the lesser of two evils. This does seem like more a PR stunt than anything, especially since there are already laws about providing a minor with booze.

ditto.

I graduated from highschool 7 years ago now and i can testify that even that long ago we drank alot, partied, had sex, and those really 'good' kids were involved as well. I will go on to say that the ones that 'acted' really good were generally the really bad ones when it came to that stuff.

As a 25 y/o, college graduate i would like to say i will never be like some of the nieve parents on this board. When i get married or let alone have kids i know that things will likely be even worse then, do yourself and a child a favor and dont be stupid.
No child respects a clueless parent like that.

Personally, my mom came to me when she noticed i was starting to get to that age where you want to try things like that. She said that if i ever needed a ride to call her no matter what time it was, or wanted to drink at home i could.(only did that once or twice)

Guess what, my mom picked me up a handful of times and even gave a few of my friends rides home too. I have no problem saying that she probably saved a couple of lives. With respect like that i didnt make a habit out of it and i outgrew it very quickly. Granted i dont think parents should throw keggers for their children and their friends, but dont be dumbasses and get all huffy and puffy if someone does.
Especially if your child is there. Then who is the bad parent?



edit - I'm not saying i never drink now, but maybe those good and responsible habits my mom taught me wore off on me and ive been the one more than a few times to stay sober and give my friends rides home. Or even realize when im too drunk to drive and that i should call someone. I think treating people with respect and teaching them responsible life lessons will get them alot farther than acting all huffy and puffy when someone provides a safe/controlled enviroment for teens to do what they would otherwise do.

[rugbybrado]

Good point Tim. Here are some stats for you guys too -

.

You can throw out alot of useless internet stats instead of having your child tell you truthfully what they are actually doing.

Heres a stat for you , 90 percent of my friends denigned to their parents that they were drinking. How is that for stats. After a couple of them had DUI;s it was harder for them to say they werent.

Plus i went to booker t washington, the 2nd highest academic ranked school in oklahoma, i would hate to see what normal public school were like.

You're arguement is flawed in that you are old and have no idea what you are talking about. Learn how to become a better parent instead using google to pull percentages off the internet.