Ideas 4 MAPS

[Jersey Boss]

Sorry to tell you but XFL already went head to head with NFL and lost. They aren’t trying to compete. They may not want to be a “developmental” league but more an alternative during the spring league. My guess is whoever survives may get some teams from whoever fails. San Diego and San Antonio AAF teams have had by far the best following and attendance so I could absolutely see them jumping ship to XFL if AAF fails.

Those teams are owned by the league so there wont be any jumping. I am also well aware of the failure of the XFL part one as well as the failure of every start up league since 1970. Wait till the newness wears off to judge any viability of new teams. Attendance in the USFL and XFL dropped game after game. Also sorry to tell you this but the original XFL played their only season in the spring. They did not go head to head and failed when tv ratings nosedived as well as attendance.

[Zuplar]

Those teams are owned by the league so there wont be any jumping. I am also well aware of the failure of the XFL part one as well as the failure of every start up league since 1970. Wait till the newness wears off to judge any viability of new teams. Attendance in the USFL and XFL dropped game after game. Also sorry to tell you this but the original XFL played their only season in the spring. They did not go head to head and failed when tv ratings nosedived as well as attendance.

Just like the XFL will own the teams. You are right they did a spring league back then, but they marketed themselves as being on the same level and went after NFL caliber players and even was able to recruit some. This time around it’s much different expectation. At the end of the day both the XFL and AAF know they are going to have to compliment the NFL for their best chance of survival.

[BoulderSooner]

Seems to me if they are going to build one they should build it bigger than 5k seats. That is pretty small but I assume it's going to be for the horse shows and that is prob. all they need. Hockey fans can forget about there ever being games in there. Fair Grounds is all about horse shows it seems. But if the Thunder are against hockey then there's prob. no chance it's coming back. I would assume that OU would be against any kind of Pro Football in the city also. That's sad because there are tons of football fans that are not OU football fans. Could be wrong about that but I haven't heard anyone stepping up and making noise for the XFL in the city.

it is going to be 10k seats ..

[Colbafone]

This new iteration on the XFL is definitely not directly competing with the NFL. Not in a direct fashion anyway. First and foremost, it's a spring league. Absolutely no competition there. But also, McMahon wants it bigger than just a developmental league to the NFL. Keep in mind all of the ties McMahon has. Look at the coaches already hired. Outside of Spurrier, every single coach hired in the XFL is twice as qualified as the best AAF coach. Stoops, Zorn, Hamilton, and Trestman all have had major success in their careers in college or NFL. ALL of these guys could have NFL jobs if they wanted them. Which tells me they are all buying into the success the XFL could bring. I'd say maybe within 4 years or so you will start seeing the XFL offer bigger contracts to directly lure players away from NFL teams though. At that point, yes, they will be competing.

The "Xtreme" part of the XFL is gone. This is going to be a legitimate football league, just in the spring. Like I mentioned, McMahon has legit contacts. So think of this. WWE SmackDown is already moving to major Fox. A MASSIVE move for Professional Wrestling. The XFL has already said they will be on a primetime cable network. Not CBS sports or just streaming in the NFL Network. You'll be able to watch every game on Sat. or Sun at whatever o'clock on Fox or NBC or whatever.

Also, currently, EA owns the rights to make the official NFL football game. 2k used to make one as well before Madden completely took over. Most people actually thought 2k had the better football game. Well, 2k makes the WWE games. There's already rumors that McMahon wants an XFL video game. And maybe some of you don't realize, that is a HUGE deal. There's also a rumor McMahon might eventually allow 18+ year olds into the league. As in no college requirement. Good or bad there, all of these set the XFL apart from literally all other startup football leagues. Just the possibility of an XFL xbox/ps4 game is HUGE. For OKC and the XFL.

I'm telling you guys. We've got to think of the XFL differently than most start up leagues. McMahon has already tried once and failed. Most of that failure was because him and CBS (who was airing the xfl) couldn't agree on how Xtreme it was. That's not happening this time. The XFL won't be Xtreme any longer, and worst case scenario, they'll also be streaming on the WWE network which currently sits at 2.5 million subscribers. That's something else the AAF doesn't have.

The XFL is going to be successful. I'd bank every dollar to my name on it. Just like I've stated in the Stadium thread, OKC has been rumored as an expansion for both the AAF, XFL, and I believe they're already in the FFL (if that happens). I'd MUCH rather build a 40k seat Stadium NOW, and be on top of it NOW. I don't mind paying more for a real cultural game changer for our city (like the original Ford Center). Imagine in 5/6 years having spent $300 mil, we have a legit Stadium by the river, an MLS team and an XFL team in a league that's clearly growing. Imagine trying to build a 40k seat Stadium in 6 years when there is TRUE demand for it and how much more expensive it will be. And how much harder it will be to get into the XFL and MLS.

The time to expand is NOW. OKC needs to take advantage of this opportunity. I'm not saying the proposed Stadium as is is a waste, just that we should seize the chance to be a step ahead of other similar cities while the timing is right and we can afford it.

[BoulderSooner]

This new iteration on the XFL is definitely not directly competing with the NFL. Not in a direct fashion anyway. First and foremost, it's a spring league. Absolutely no competition there. But also, McMahon wants it bigger than just a developmental league to the NFL. Keep in mind all of the ties McMahon has. Look at the coaches already hired. Outside of Spurrier, every single coach hired in the XFL is twice as qualified as the best AAF coach. Stoops, Zorn, Hamilton, and Trestman all have had major success in their careers in college or NFL. ALL of these guys could have NFL jobs if they wanted them. Which tells me they are all buying into the success the XFL could bring. I'd say maybe within 4 years or so you will start seeing the XFL offer bigger contracts to directly lure players away from NFL teams though. At that point, yes, they will be competing.

.

non of this is true so far the AAF has more proven NFL experienced coaches and more importantly management also the XFL in year 1 and 2 will have talent at a level below the AAF

for instance no one playing in the AAF this season can be on an XFL roster until XFL year 3 ...

also the AAF has great tv deals currently we will see if the XFL can get close ..

the XFL if it makes year 4 will still not be remotly close to offering NFL guys contracts

[OKCRT]

I also have a good feeling about the XFL making it. OKC should make a big push and try to secure a future spot . I don't think this would interfere with the Thunder in any way. The problem with building a new stadium for XFL is what else can you use the stadium for? Soccer and what else? How many XFL games per year would they play in a new stadium? Maybe 5. Have to be able to make it somewhat feasible to build. XFL teams will be playing in major stadiums from what I understand.

[Colbafone]

non of this is true so far the AAF has more proven NFL experienced coaches and more importantly management also the XFL in year 1 and 2 will have talent at a level below the AAF

for instance no one playing in the AAF this season can be on an XFL roster until XFL year 3 ...

also the AAF has great tv deals currently we will see if the XFL can get close ..

the XFL if it makes year 4 will still not be remotly close to offering NFL guys contracts

What? Of known coaches, the AAF has Mike Singletary, Rick Neuheisel, Mike Martz, Dennis Erickson, and Steve Spurrier. And those are all great names. Knock being two of them are over 70 and one has had some off the field issues. But overall I'd say the first few hires in the XFL rival that pretty well so far.

As far as players playing in the XFL, the XFL can sign any players that wants tinplate for them. I can't find ANYTHING that says an AAF player can't jump to the XFL. Oliver Luck, the XFL commissioner has stated they will go after any and everyone the can. With a starting pay of $200,000. That's higher than the AAF. The AAF isn't taking anybody off an active NFL roster, but the XFL could. Now, I doubt they will, but they could, since they aren't trying to be a developmental league to the NFL, but their own separate league.

And the AAF does not have great TV deals. They're on the CBS sports network, NOT CBS. Also the NFL Network. McMahon and Luck have already said they've got a contract working with an OTA channel, probably FOX. That's waaaaaaay more views.

Anyway, I'm really not trying to argue the XFL is better than the AAF. Personally I think the will merge eventually. Unless the NFL buys out the AAF.

Either way, the point is, I fully believe the AAF/XFL will be successful. And I think OKC needs a stadium for a team. Since we have this proposal, we need to make it bigger and get on the bandwagon fast for the MLS and AAF/XFL.

[BoulderSooner]

What? Of known coaches, the AAF has Mike Singletary, Rick Neuheisel, Mike Martz, Dennis Erickson, and Steve Spurrier. And those are all great names. Knock being two of them are over 70 and one has had some off the field issues. But overall I'd say the first few hires in the XFL rival that pretty well so far.

As far as players playing in the XFL, the XFL can sign any players that wants tinplate for them. I can't find ANYTHING that says an AAF player can't jump to the XFL. Oliver Luck, the XFL commissioner has stated they will go after any and everyone the can. With a starting pay of $200,000. That's higher than the AAF. The AAF isn't taking anybody off an active NFL roster, but the XFL could. Now, I doubt they will, but they could, since they aren't trying to be a developmental league to the NFL, but their own separate league.

And the AAF does not have great TV deals. They're on the CBS sports network, NOT CBS. Also the NFL Network. McMahon and Luck have already said they've got a contract working with an OTA channel, probably FOX. That's waaaaaaay more views.

Anyway, I'm really not trying to argue the XFL is better than the AAF. Personally I think the will merge eventually. Unless the NFL buys out the AAF.

Either way, the point is, I fully believe the AAF/XFL will be successful. And I think OKC needs a stadium for a team. Since we have this proposal, we need to make it bigger and get on the bandwagon fast for the MLS and AAF/XFL.

aaf players all signed 3 year contracts with the only out being the NFL

[Colbafone]

aaf players all signed 3 year contracts with the only out being the NFL

Ah, didn't know that. Either way, it's if no real consequence. Makes the competition between the 2 leagues better, in my opinion.

[Laramie]

I recall when the first MAPS had to have a 6 months extension to ensure that all the projects would be built. There were calls to eliminate The Peake if the extension vote didn't go through. It was believed that since we couldn't fill the Myriad Convention Center Arena; why would we need a 20,000-seat Indoor Arena.

December 1998 MAPS tax extension approved
Voters overwhelmingly answered the mayor’s call to "finish MAPS right,” with 67 percent approving a six-month extension of the MAPS tax. "We’re the only city in America to have passed something like MAPS, and now we’ve done it twice,” Humphreys said at an election watch party.

History of the MAPS projects TIMELINE timeline: https://newsok.com/article/3454837/h...eline-timeline

Wouldn't want to lose the MAPS brand. City officials have given voters 'a say' in approving the penny sales tax initiative.

[mugofbeer]

OKC is football country. If there were a stadium for these teams to play in, l have no doubt one of the new leagues would place a team here.

[hoya]

OKC is football country. If there were a stadium for these teams to play in, l have no doubt one of the new leagues would place a team here.

I am not convinced that those leagues will still be around by the time the MAPS 4 vote takes place, let a lone by the time the stadium is built.

[Timshel]

by the time the MAPS 4 vote takes place, let a lone by the time the stadium is built.

This would seem to be an important point. Even if a MAPS4 stadium is the first project to be constructed, we're not looking at it being complete until, what, probably 2025 at the earliest and more likely the late 2020s/early 2030s? This is a good reason not to make decisions based on short term trends but also a good reason to place an emphasis on long-term sporting trends and future demographic changes throughout the state (even if soccer wouldn't seem to warrant such an investment based on the sport's current popularity in the state).

[Laramie]

As soon as the MAPS IV sales tax extension is passed and enough funds are collected; look for the stadium, arena & possibly a potential Bricktown Canal extension to be among the first 3 projects to be built. The infrastructure IIRC (fiber glass pipes) for a canal extension were put in place in 2009; unfortunately a canal extension didn't get on MAPS 3.

Other factors: How long the USL will give OKC to get into a soccer specific stadium beyond 2020 if one is funded. As Timshel mentioned it could be in the 2025-2030 range. Funk-McLaughlin will probably make a decision around 2022-2023 whether to commit to MLS expansion/relocation at which time the stadium construction could be in-progress with a quick decision to expand seating.

We have no idea how many teams the MLS will expand; some say 32, 36 or 40. One thing appear to be consistent about MLS expansion; they are going after the 2 million MSA markets first; however financial backing, stadium and name-recognition like Oklahoma City & Louisville will be a factor.

The 37 acre Producer's Coop Mill site once wanted around $3 million an acre; with the recent contamination & clean-up they won't get that price.

[OKCRT]

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/socc...c8b6226ad.html
Open link incognito to see free.
This 20k+ seat MLS stadium will cost the owners a bit over 200 mil. and that is not counting the land cost. Plus they are getting about 60 mil. in TIF. It appears it's going to be Stl & Sacramento on the next expansion list and then a few other cities after that. I haven't seen OKC on any recent list that projects future MLS teams. I'm thinking if they are going to have a soccer stadium on maps it will have to be on this upcoming one. The next one could have a new expensive NBA arena on there.

[BoulderSooner]

As soon as the MAPS IV sales tax extension is passed and enough funds are collected; look for the stadium, arena & possibly a potential Bricktown Canal extension to be among the first 3 projects to be built. The infrastructure IIRC (fiber glass pipes) for a canal extension were put in place in 2009; unfortunately a canal extension didn't get on MAPS 3.

Other factors: How long the USL will give OKC to get into a soccer specific stadium beyond 2020 if one is funded. As Timshel mentioned it could be in the 2025-2030 range. Funk-McLaughlin will probably make a decision around 2022-2023 whether to commit to MLS expansion/relocation at which time the stadium construction could be in-progress with a quick decision to expand seating.

We have no idea how many teams the MLS will expand; some say 32, 36 or 40. One thing appear to be consistent about MLS expansion; they are going after the 2 million MSA markets first; however financial backing, stadium and name-recognition like Oklahoma City & Louisville will be a factor.

The 37 acre Producer's Coop Mill site once wanted around $3 million an acre; with the recent contamination & clean-up they won't get that price.

there has not been infrastructure build for a canal extension and that won't be a Maps4 project anyway (it will likely get build as part of the TIF that goes to the coop site project

the energy has not shown any thing that would make anyone think they can/will pay over 200 mil to get a MLS expansion team

the producers mill site is worth more than the 3 mil an acre now and a big plan for that site is still moving forward

[Laramie]

Would love to see the big plans the Coop Mill owners have for the site.

Producers Cooperative put its 43 acres just south of Bricktown on the market in early 2010 for $120 million, an asking price widely seen as well outside the realm of reason: $2,790,698 per acre, or $64 per square foot.

A year later, the mill offered to sell the city 15 acres as a convention center site for $41.8 million, sweetening the pitch by agreeing to contribute $3 million to extend Bricktown Canal through the property.

Not so sure the Oklahomans' Richard Mize is a dependable source to use: https://newsok.com/article/4850516/p...itys-bricktown Didn't Mize fumble the ball on a recent project reported by OKCTalk?

City needs to consider city-owned land for a stadium on the riverfront, agree BoulderSooner it probably won't include a Bricktown Canal extension; however if the canal is extended into that area it will up the ante on the acreage; however I doubt if they will get anywhere near $3 million an acre.

[David]

Aren't we long past the expected date of when the Coop site owners had been rumored to release their plans? Or are we just still waiting on that?

[jonny d]

Aren't we long past the expected date of when the Coop site owners had been rumored to release their plans? Or are we just still waiting on that?

I think there were unanticipated snags with railroad easements that hung everything up. Railroads hate change, or helping anyone but themselves. So nothing can be done til that gets sorted out.

[Laramie]

I think there were unanticipated snags with railroad easements that hung everything up. Railroads hate change, or helping anyone but themselves. So nothing can be done til that gets sorted out.

Looks like there's a change or sting of obstacles associated with the canal extension.

My badd on post #789; infrastructure for the arena, not the canal.

[Laramie]

Just want to clarify something on the stadium.

Whether or not Funk-McLaughlin decide to apply for MLS expansion; the stadium has potential to attract a number of events. We can begin with 10,000-seats; however with a venue in the 22,000-30,000-seat range will afford us more events to bid on, also it would be inexpensive to go ahead and build than expand.

Funks' tract record doesn't bode well with those of us who have followed sports. McLaughlin just may be the key to change what the family alone couldn't accomplish.

[David]

For reference from here (and originally here) since I went to the trouble of looking it up for the Streetcar thread.

For the MAPS 3 potential projects, polling ahead of time had the following popularity results:

• 50% - Outdoor improvements, like parks and trails
• 50% - Constructing a streetcar system
• 36% - Development of a 70-acre downtown central park
• 27% - New convention center
• 26% - Improvements to the Oklahoma River
• 11% - State Fairgrounds exhibit pavilion space

I'd be curious to see how things poll this time around, particularly since the State Fairgrounds are looking for another hand out from our tax dollars.

[Pete]

Given the recent tragic incident at NW 16th and Classen, I'm of the mind that a huge chunk of any future MAPS project should be a transformational bike/walk network.

Not just recreational trails (of which we now have some great, long routes) but dedicated bike lanes that would allow people to bike throughout at least the middle of the city.

It's embarrasing how far behind we are in this area. Not to be a smug former Californian, but even in the outlying areas there were dedicated bike lanes on almost every main thoroughfare, and usually on both sides of the road.

We need to start making good progress in this area and we have yet to really begin.

[catch22]

^ Here in Colorado Springs most streets have dedicated bike lanes, despite being an extremely unfriendly city for pedestrians and cyclists.

[Pete]

^ Here in Colorado Springs most streets have dedicated bike lanes, despite being an extremely unfriendly city for pedestrians and cyclists.

I don't understand?

Aren't those points contradictory?