New State Fair Coliseum

[Pete]

Maps is for large capital building projects that benefit Okc. This is exactly that

Other cities use revenue bonds for this same purpose. In fact, OKC is the exception. Every other city builds large capital projects and few have anything like MAPS.

And reminder that they are talking about adding lots of things to MAPS 4 that aren't large capital projects, such fund for mental health and an endowment for other things.

[BoulderSooner]

Other cities use revenue bonds for this same purpose. In fact, OKC is the exception.

And reminder that they are talking about adding lots of things to MAPS 4 that aren't large capital projects, such fund for mental health and an endowment for other things.

Which is why lots of other cities come to Okc to find out how we do things. Which is why our sport arena doesn’t have debt. Which is why our CC will work better than others.

[BoulderSooner]

Other cities would love to have maps and to pass every bond issue going back for a long time. But other cities don’t have the public trust in their non partisan govt that Okc does. Although sadly the non partisan nature or the council seems to be changing

[d-usa]

When they act like a city owned property, hold open meetings like a city run group, and follow the same open record laws that the rest of the city is required to follow, they can request more money like the rest of the city.

[Pete]

Other cities would love to have maps and to pass every bond issue going back for a long time. But other cities don’t have the public trust in their non partisan govt that Okc does. Although sadly the non partisan nature or the council seems to be changing

Yet, somehow, virtually every other peer city has convention centers and arenas and public transport.

It's all done through revenue bonds.

[OKCRT]

I assume most of the horse show folks are from out of the OKC limits. Maybe a hotel/motel tax is the way to go to make improvements at the fairgrounds and fund a street car extension? I don't think building a horse arena should be on the maps ticket. Maybe even put a small tax on rental cars. Enterprise might throw a fit but Oh Well.

[baralheia]

I understand and I agree with the need for a new arena at the fairgrounds, and though I wish the capacity was a bit larger, I generally like the design that they're going for. But I have some serious reservations about using MAPS to pay for it. d-usa's post sums up pretty much exactly how I feel about this:

When they act like a city owned property, hold open meetings like a city run group, and follow the same open record laws that the rest of the city is required to follow, they can request more money like the rest of the city.

The fact that they are so secretive about their dealings, combined with the recent loss of multiple iconic structures and attractions, does not inspire any sense of confidence or trust - exactly the opposite of how I generally feel about the rest of the City government.

[BoulderSooner]

Yet, somehow, virtually every other peer city has convention centers and arenas and public transport.

It's all done through revenue bonds.

And those other cities also have property tax dollars to help fund the city and pay off those bonds

[Dob Hooligan]

I don't have a problem with the project and would expect to vote for it. I believe the 9300 capacity for basketball is enough for all high school tournaments. I'm guessing the State Fair Board has gotten tacit approval from the OSSAA that the arena will be an acceptable replacement version of "The Big House". I expect it will have ice capability and will be happy to house minor league hockey and other events that are not horse centric.

My issue is with the Board itself, or fairgrounds management. Allow me to mention for the umpteenth time that I have spent over 35 years with my business 2 blocks east of the fairgrounds. I drive by there 7 days a week. It has events probably 50 weeks a year. But I think they have a communications problem. They want what they want and appear to have no interest in "selling" any part of their vision to the public. Explaining is for other people. They have commandeered the road on the west side and made it impossible to go from 10th Street to Reno, which could help reduce the traffic backup at 10th to south bound Portland that can go all they way to the south bound I-44 off ramp. Their grounds have become an asphalt ocean lacking direction. They have chocked entrances so tight that I have been caught up in event traffic that backed up onto south bound I-44 half way between 10th and 23rd on a Saturday morning.

[Laramie]

If MAPS 4 isn't successful, there will never be another MAPS initiative that will survive a vote.

[HOT ROD]

I don't know if some of you realize how huge the horse industry is here.

so, then they have revenue to pay for capital expenditures. Why is it that something so big never has any money when it's time to renovate or expand its facilities?

[mugofbeer]

It's a competitive industry and will be more competitive as the Ft. Worth arena comes online. They're not going to have a spare $100 million + sitting around. When l lived in Dallas, the city paid for buildings and major projects, not the Dallas Fair Park authority. The Ft. Worth arena is a public/private partnership - not strictly private. Accept it, taxpayers have to sometimes pay for public facilities. You don't get things like this for nothing.

[jonny d]

so, then they have revenue to pay for capital expenditures. Why is it that something so big never has any money when it's time to renovate or expand its facilities?

Renovate/maintain? Yes. But building a whole new arena, no fair authority has $100 million they can just hand to a contractor, let alone Oklahoma's...

[G.Walker]

Enough with the grand leisure projects. Let's focus infrastructure, education, & public safety.

[Pete]

And those other cities also have property tax dollars to help fund the city and pay off those bonds

And we have sales tax, which they don't.

We also issue boatloads for revenue bonds for other purposes, all the time. And the city also boasts about it's high bond rating, which means our source of revenue is very stable.

[TheSteveHunt]

If MAPS 4 isn't successful, there will never be another MAPS initiative that will survive a vote.

I disagree. Sounds like a scare tactic. We shoulda defeated MAPS 3 and then brought up another non Convention Center vote and it would have passed.... but we know how all this stuff works.

[BoulderSooner]

And we have sales tax, which they don't.

We also issue boatloads for revenue bonds for other purposes, all the time. And the city also boasts about it's high bond rating, which means our source of revenue is very stable.

Most cities have both

[Pete]

Most cities have both

OKC has plenty of revenue for these bonds, as evidenced by using them all the time. You are arguing we are somehow handicapped because of the type of tax received, which is simply not true, evidenced by our very high credit rating.

We built the Cox Center (Myriad), Myriad Gardens, the Norick Arena, the airport, all our parks and tons of other things without MAPS.

[checkthat]

Other cities would love to have maps and to pass every bond issue going back for a long time. But other cities don’t have the public trust in their non partisan govt that Okc does. Although sadly the non partisan nature or the council seems to be changing

Are you implying that the non-partisan nature of the council seems to be changing because two of the Republican endorsed candidates lost? Guess your tweet couldn't help them over the edge.

[BDP]

Then it should be able to be self sustaining?

I'll vote no on Maps if this is included.

Self sustaining in what way? Do you mean privatization?

Pretty much all MAPS projects aren't directly self sustaining. Their expense is justified by associated economic benefits and collective quality of life improvement. We spent about the same amount of money on Chesapeake arena to get it built and then passed another tax to spend millions more to attract the Thunder, while forfeiting the sales tax revenue on sales of Thunder tickets. The justification for this was that the Thunder would have around a $1.5MM economic impact per game at the arena. That works out to around $61.5MM a year. Of course, on top of that, the arena has a lot of other events that have economic benefits to the community. I'm actually not sure if the city receives sales tax and direct revenue from lease payments for the other events.

Estimated economic benefit of the horse show industry to the city is estimated at over $126MM a year. Basically, that's twice the amount of the Thunder. And, of course, this arena would be used for much more than just horse show related events, both commercial entertainment and community functions. It certainly makes the same kind of "sense" that using maps to build the downtown arena did, and, really, more sense in terms of indirect return on investment based on overall economic impact.

That's not to say that other funding mechanisms shouldn't be used or that it automatically qualifies as a future MAPS project. I'm just saying that making "self sustaining" a requirement for MAPS projects really doesn't have any precedent at this point. Obviously, I'm sure many voted NO on MAPS based on that concept, but it certainly didn't pass each time based on a qualification that each project be sustaining through direct revenue generated by sales tax or event leases.

Now, personally, I have been a proponent of the MAPS initiatives and voted for it each time that I could, along with the added tax to improve the arena for the NBA and I am a season ticket holder. And I don't attend or participate in horse shows. That doesn't mean I don't realize their value to the city or their benefit to local businesses, including ones that I am involved with. Nor does it mean that I think this project should be included in the next MAPS initiative as a contingent of supporting it. I think Pete has a very valid point about revenue bonds for this or other city projects. Revenue bonds can often build things faster than the MAPS debt free model. The MAPS model's primary advantage is that it is debt free, but the trade off is that projects are delayed until the full amount of revenue is raised to cover the cost of the project(s). So, while we don't have interest payments along the way, MAPS delays the revenue stream and economic benefit of its projects. That's essentially what debt financing is all about and it's a powerful economic tool that shouldn't be taken out out of the city's toolbox just because MAPS has worked out so well.

And I do share everyone's concern with the State Fair Board and its transparency. Ultimately, I do think this is a project worthy of consideration and, maybe, with its consideration as part of a MAPS initiative or bond initiative, that could be used a leverage to force changes in the organization itself. Maybe instead of looking at this as an opportunity to spite the Board, it could be used as a way to redefine the fairgrounds as a whole and how it's used to benefit the community, both in economic impact and quality of life, in the same but expanded context that basically all MAPS projects and bond revenue initiatives have been.

[Dob Hooligan]

I don't want to hijack the Stadium thread, so, I recall @Laramie mentioned on that thread today that this proposed arena seated 5500. I thought I read that it seated 9000 plus for basketball, etc. He also mentioned hockey, and I'm guessing the arena has to have ice capability. Ice shows have been a part of the State Fair for as long as I can remember and I just feel that this arena is going to be the ECHL hockey arena.

[dmoor82]

^^ The Blazers played a few hockey games at the State Fair arena in the 90s. Decent crowds and close to the action.

[Pete]

^^ The Blazers played a few hockey games at the State Fair arena in the 90s. Decent crowds and close to the action.

That's where they started back in the 60's. Remember going there with my parents as a kid.

Looked it up and the first incarnation played there from starting in 1965 before moving to the Cox Center (Myriad) sometime in the 70's.

In those days, they were the farm team of the Boston Bruins and lots of great players came through.

[Dob Hooligan]

Time tripping...Dad took me to many games around 1971. Met up with my buddy Kent Harris one game and we spied injured goalies Jon Adams and Clay (last name escapes me). We worked up the nerve to ask for autographs. Pencil on lined notebook paper. Didn't plan ahead. 7th grade. We thought those dudes were the coolest, most mature men on earth.

One thing I think we overlook as locals is how the State Fair Arena is an icon of high schools sports in Oklahoma. Today is one day where "The Big House" draws people from all over the state. And the big parking lot sure shows it. I am convinced that the new arena is designed to continue that and the OSSAA has committed to it, as well.

[Laramie]

Just want to mention that when the Blazers couldn't use the Myriad; they played about 3 games at the Norick State Fair Arena. All of those games sold out the 7,930 seats that were available.

This new arena could easily seat 9,350 for basketball (retractable floor & upper deck) and probably 8,250 for ice hockey. It could become the future home for the NBA G-League Oklahoma City Blue as well as a permanent home for an ECHL AA ice hockey franchise. The new SFA will have more use than The Peake.

Realize that an 'issue' has been made about the State Fair Board Trust not opening their books to the public. IMO, there's probably not a whole lot there to see.

The annual economic impact of this arena according to the Populous study will be in the $300 million range . Many of the horse shows & events we have at the current SFA will probably remain; 5,500 seats for the horse events will be more cozy here than in a 14,000 seat Dixie's Arena or an 8,000 seat SFA; retractable seating will allow us to be flexible if more seats are needed for the horse show events.