Ideas 4 MAPS

[Zuplar]

Anyone else see Holt go on Twitter about MAPS4? Seems to me he really lets some of the comments on this site and others get to him. He’s getting as bad as Trump on Twitter.

[OKC Guy]

Reading the tea leaves. Maps 4 is starting to take a little bit of shape

Project that seem likely
Fairgrounds arena 130 mil
Downtown aquarium 200 mil
Street car extension 150mil
Sidewalks 20mil
Trails 20mil
Busses and shelters 50 mil
Chesapeake 50-100mil
Soccer stadium 20mil
That is 650-700

This maps will be 900mil - 1 billion dollars

A cap is being pushed by the chamber at some cost 100-200 mil

Some type of endowment is likely 100 mil

What else ??

I am 100% against streetcar extension. We need to go 2-3 years with current one to see how it pans out first. And it adds to infrastructure costs. Plus its supposed to be “last mile” so no need to extend. We need to fix bus system first, and decaying roads.

We are almost at the point we want to spend money just to spend it without a clear need or concensus on what we need. I have no problem with upgrades to Peake it adds much more value for more of all citizens whereas SC is a pet project serving only a very few in downtown. We’ve spent over 20 years focusing on downtown and its doing great. Time to start speading the taxpayers dollars around.

[OkiePoke]

I'm not trying to cause a stink, but can someone explain to me why an aquarium of all things should be included in maps? I'll admit, I haven't been to a great aquarium since I was a kid but I jut don't see the appeal.

I highly recommend going to a top-rate aquarium. Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, etc.

Not many MAPS projects have been able to pull triple-duty: local entertainment, education, and a tourist attraction.

[Plutonic Panda]

I am 100% against streetcar extension. We need to go 2-3 years with current one to see how it pans out first. And it adds to infrastructure costs. Plus its supposed to be “last mile” so no need to extend. We need to fix bus system first, and decaying roads.

We are almost at the point we want to spend money just to spend it without a clear need or concensus on what we need. I have no problem with upgrades to Peake it adds much more value for more of all citizens whereas SC is a pet project serving only a very few in downtown. We’ve spent over 20 years focusing on downtown and its doing great. Time to start speading the taxpayers dollars around.

I'm divided on streetcars as I wish the money would be sunk into a grade separated transit system that would likely induce more riders than a streetcar. I am also very skeptical the streetcar has spurred a single penny in private development. That said, I think in order for the streetcar to be successful it needs an expansion to nearby neighborhoods. Capitol Hill, Paseo, Innovation District, Wheeler District, Linwood, OCU, NW 23rd, Plaza, Deep Deuce, Film Row, and MLK Boulevard are all good candidates for a streetcar extension. This would help boost ridership.

[David]

Anyone else see Holt go on Twitter about MAPS4? Seems to me he really lets some of the comments on this site and others get to him. He’s getting as bad as Trump on Twitter.

I think that is a deeply unfair characterization of it, it was pretty standard fare public figure twitter use.

For reference, the twitter thread: https://twitter.com/davidfholt/statu...34485446205440

[Zuplar]

I think that is a deeply unfair characterization of it, it was pretty standard fare public figure twitter use.

For reference, the twitter thread: https://twitter.com/davidfholt/statu...34485446205440

Nah several of his tweets over the past few months are very reactive. I maintain my opinion. He lets public opinion (especially negative) get to him.

[soonerguru]

I'm divided on streetcars as I wish the money would be sunk into a grade separated transit system that would likely induce more riders than a streetcar. I am also very skeptical the streetcar has spurred a single penny in private development. That said, I think in order for the streetcar to be successful it needs an expansion to nearby neighborhoods. Capitol Hill, Paseo, Innovation District, Wheeler District, Linwood, OCU, NW 23rd, Plaza, Deep Deuce, Film Row, and MLK Boulevard are all good candidates for a streetcar extension. This would help boost ridership.

ON this point you are wrong. There are hundreds of millions in private development already spurred by the streetcar, some of which is publicly available information, such as the streetcar being a catalyst in the new Heartland corporate HQ among others. Unless you believe the people saying it swayed their development decision are lying.

[soonerguru]

She may be reelected in 2020, but CD5 will be redrawn to include more rural counties. Count on it.

Oh joy.

[soonerguru]

Reading the tea leaves. Maps 4 is starting to take a little bit of shape

Project that seem likely
Fairgrounds arena 130 mil
Downtown aquarium 200 mil
Street car extension 150mil
Sidewalks 20mil
Trails 20mil
Busses and shelters 50 mil
Chesapeake 50-100mil
Soccer stadium 20mil
That is 650-700

This maps will be 900mil - 1 billion dollars

A cap is being pushed by the chamber at some cost 100-200 mil

Some type of endowment is likely 100 mil

What else ??

I see nothing in that list provided for neighborhood beautification or for mental health, homeless, or schools. The mayor is already proposing something be done for the latter at least.

[dankrutka]

Anyone else see Holt go on Twitter about MAPS4? Seems to me he really lets some of the comments on this site and others get to him. He’s getting as bad as Trump on Twitter.

He's actually a pretty well reasoned and thoughtful ambassador for OKC on Twitter. Whether you agree with his position or not, his posts on MAPS were more informative of his stance than anything. Comparing his tweets to Trump's tweets is... bizarre.

[dankrutka]

I think that is a deeply unfair characterization of it, it was pretty standard fare public figure twitter use.

For reference, the twitter thread: https://twitter.com/davidfholt/statu...34485446205440

Yup.

[Zuplar]

He's actually a pretty well reasoned and thoughtful ambassador for OKC on Twitter. Whether you agree with his position or not, his posts on MAPS were more informative of his stance than anything. Comparing his tweets to Trump's tweets is... bizarre.

I think it’s bizarre you can’t see some similarities.

So agree to disagree.

[Plutonic Panda]

ON this point you are wrong. There are hundreds of millions in private development already spurred by the streetcar, some of which is publicly available information, such as the streetcar being a catalyst in the new Heartland corporate HQ among others. Unless you believe the people saying it swayed their development decision are lying.

I am skeptical about their claims. How many of their employees will use the streetcar? I highly doubt they saw the streetcar line and decided they wanted to be by it.

[Urban Pioneer]

I highly doubt they saw the streetcar line and decided they wanted to be by it.

No offense, but you're wrong about that. They're clients of mine and we've actually discussed it.

In addition, the Oklahoma Contemporary, The Edge, and Lift all cited the streetcar at various times as a primary motivating factor as to why they felt comfortable moving ahead with their projects even though none of them are directly adjacent to the downtown core. I'm sure Gary Brooks and Milhaus didn't think it would take this long to design and build when those statements were made. I certainly didn't. Regardless, those perimeter high-density and pedestrian projects can be directly attributed to positively responding to the track alignment chosen.

[Plutonic Panda]

How many of their employees will use the streetcar for commuting purposes?

I’d be willing to bet it’s an extremely small percentage of their total workforce. I really don’t care what they told you, I am not buying that the streetcar was the deciding factor of them relocating to downtown. That makes zero sense. They know this as they are including a large amount of parking for their employees.

Maybe I am wrong, but I just don’t see the streetcar spurring any development or rather being the sole reason any development has occurred where it otherwise wouldn’t have.

[Urban Pioneer]

I have no idea how many. I am responding directly to your specific quote which is not factual.

[Plutonic Panda]

You have no way of proving it wrong other than a conversation you had with them?

BTW, I updated my reply to add more.

[Urban Pioneer]

You substantively edited your commentary. I didn't state that the streetcar was the motivating factor for them to move downtown. It was a motivating factor in the specific site they chose downtown. I believe this is documented in several newsok articles and chats. And yes, as a seasoned, longtime poster and an actual public official, if I write on here that something happened, it happened.

[Plutonic Panda]

Cool. The streetcar has not spurred a single penny in development that wouldn’t have happened without it.

[Urban Pioneer]

To me, this discussion/debate would be more accurately framed around density, pedestrian accessibility, and our built environment. PluPan, I think that saying it has or hasn't spurred development is a technical unknown. Presumably, The Oklahoma Contemporary would have been built somewhere. What the streetcar has done is to give developers confidence about lots and sites that are more inconvenient to access on foot from where most people currently are. If we think about parking garages, garage locations, land use, and improved public transit overall, it's easy to see the streetcar as a catalyst to a much broader downtown and with the potential to be built in a much more sensitive and efficient way.

[Urban Pioneer]

After working on this for many years, I think any expansion should be very carefully considered and be directly related to better land use. The question is, what are the measures that qualify as success? Is it just land use and more densification? Is it ridership? I personally think that ideally, it is both. In a city as suburban as ours, I think there are very few corridors in which we would see success in both metrics for streetcar expansion. Any expansion should directly involve the Planning Department and incorporate redevelopment mechanisms to maximize the impact.

[David]

Cool. The streetcar has not spurred a single penny in development that wouldn’t have happened without it.

Come on Panda, you can have this as an opinion but saying it as an absolute statement of fact is nonsensical. You don't know this, you just think it.

[Pete]

There seems to be a movement to spending more money on the Thunder practice facility as well.

The place is already an absolute palace, with private covered parking, an outside pool, etc.

IMO this is another dubious hand-out.

[jedicurt]

There seems to be a movement to spending more money on the Thunder practice facility as well.

The place is already an absolute palace, with private covered parking, an outside pool, etc.

IMO this is another dubious hand-out.

that 100% is... we might disagree on some of the other projects... but the thunder can absolutely pay for this

[aDark]

Nah several of his tweets over the past few months are very reactive. I maintain my opinion. He lets public opinion (especially negative) get to him.

I find his approach refreshing and engaging. He read or heard (via our threads, or elsewhere) some initial push back on a select few MAPS4 items. He addressed it clearly and summarized by suggesting that an individual may not love every item but should love enough portions of MAPS4 to support it. Take the lukewarm with the great.

I've not seen a public figure so invested and transparent.

Trump throws out divisive and hateful comments on twitter. This is not that. This is governance evolved.