Ideas 4 MAPS

[Plutonic Panda]

https://journalrecord.com/2019/02/19...gy-for-maps-4/

[Timshel]

Pete (or anyone else more in the know than I), it seems like there has been a sharp uptick in announcements of developments in automobile alley over the last ~6 months. While I'm sure a lot of this is natural development as there's a great supply of underused building stock and land in the area, do you think the developers are announcing these projects now based off of assurances there will be a 235 cap/other significant investment in the area as part of MAPS 4?

While, for better or worse, I won't be surprised if a 235 cap is part of MAPS 4 based off of everything I've heard here and elsewhere, I'm just curious if some of these developers announcing projects know something the public doesn't. Not that I think there's anything hugely scandalous about this - just curious.

That being said, it seems that a decent amount of credit should be given to the streetcar for helping spur the recent uptick of development in AA as well.

[shawnw]

https://oklahoma.uli.org/event/march-mapsness-okc/

[Urban Pioneer]

I can’t see the Journal Record because of the paywall. I really need to get a subscription to them as they do outstanding journalism.

regarding the highway cap, it will be interesting to see if the new councilors agree that this is where they think the money needs to spent. Two other questions include a streetcar extension versus the cost of the cap. Maybe a combination project? And the. There is ODOT. There really isn’t an incentive for them to be for this. The new Director would have to buy in. That person’s s opinion is probably directly influenced by the governor. This project idea probably has the most obstacles. They are not impossible obstacles but significant both monetarily and politically.

[Plutonic Panda]

I still have yet to subscribe but from the paragraph shown it says maps will likely be the first billion dollar maps and will set aside 100 million for an endowment to fund ongoing MAPS project operations. I think that would be a smart move.

[Laramie]

I still have yet to subscribe but from the paragraph shown it says maps will likely be the first billion dollar maps and will set aside 100 million for an endowment to fund ongoing MAPS project operations. I think that would be a smart move.

Endowment for ongoing MAPS project operation sounds like a great idea--in addition to a contingency fund.

Many of those original MAPS Projects like the Bricktown Ballpark (opened in 1998) will approach 22 years come 2020. Use to love the right field upper deck that they tarped off with ADS; wish they would restore those seats and replace all seats in The Brick; same with The Peake.

Great Idea. The Endowment grows interest that adds a little extra cash to the fund.

[Plutonic Panda]

It would be cool to see improvements to the proposed commuter rail corridor to help expedite the process of construction.

A few examples would be using MAPS 4 funds to secure property for proposed station and build grade separated overpasses on high trafficked streets that separated the BNSF line while having room for an additional track or even dedicated tracks alongside the existing BNSF track to be constructed whenever official construction on the entire line begins. A more specific example would be something like building an overpass at Wilshire long enough to reconnect Classen straight through. The bridge superstructure should carry the BNSF track plus be wide enough to build a separate commuter rail track in the future.

Create a TOD area in the old town of Britton with streetscape improvements and property purchased for a future commuter rail station. Again, this could expedite the process of bringing commuter rail to OKC. Do this for several other locations along proposed lines.

[Laramie]

Commuter rail prep for the future 10-20 years from now has good potential. Drivers in OKC are showing signs they want to navigate throughout the city without vehicles. The Streetcar is a good example of a sample.

Having a north route from OKC to Edmond; south to Moore, Norman would be a starter. West to Yukon & El Reno present futurel possibilities as well as east to Del City, Midwest City & Shawnee.

More people would commute south to Norman for OU school, games & events etc...

Key to commuter rail is cities with 125,000 pop., Norman is there; Edmond is almost there. UCO being a commuter university certainly bodes well since there are over 90,000 in Edmond. A Turner Turnpike commuter rail would need some study and funds from ODOT.

Moore-Norman accounts for a combined 185,000.

[baralheia]

Is there something in the charter that strictly forbids us from doing anything unique/original?

That sort of negativity isn't helpful man. One must only look at the Riversport Rapids for a MAPS project that very few other cities have done. Same with the canal. Not every MAPS project has to be super unique and original. The whole point of MAPS is to increase the quality of life in OKC, so some, if not most, of those projects will be mundane (but stuff that still helps the City).

[baralheia]

Blame that on our crappy city engineers, original design was way better. "Unexpected costs" seems to be a familiar recurring theme with them...

https://newsok.com/article/3508495/s...-be-redesigned

https://newsok.com/article/3508772/c...kydance-bridge

It wasn't city engineers - it was ODOT. ODOT forced the changes because they wanted to be able to drive vehicles on it in case they needed to make repairs.

[Plutonic Panda]

It wasn't city engineers - it was ODOT. ODOT forced the changes because they wanted to be able to drive vehicles on it in case they needed to make repairs.

The article says this:

The Skydance Bridge will need a redesign as its projected cost has soared to more than twice the original estimate, city officials said Tuesday

Given Oklahoma's love affair for the cheap train, if OkDOT did in fact use that as an excuse, I'm calling BS on it! A suspension bridge could have been modified as well to be able to drive cars over it but that isn't what it's about. As always, a shiny rendering is put fourth that Oklahoma is finally getting something nice like what other major cities have then the bill comes... then starts the value engineering. Happens with developers all too much as well.

[baralheia]

The article says this:



Given Oklahoma's love affair for the cheap train, if OkDOT did in fact use that as an excuse, I'm calling BS on it! A suspension bridge could have been modified as well to be able to drive cars over it but that isn't what it's about. As always, a shiny rendering is put fourth that Oklahoma is finally getting something nice like what other major cities have then the bill comes... then starts the value engineering. Happens with developers all too much as well.

Yes, the cost estimate soared to double the original estimate - from $5.2 million to $12.8 million - due largely to the redesign needed to bow to ODOT's demands. From your first article link:

The original design called for cables connected to the massive sculpture that would support the 30-foot-wide bridge.

Assistant City Manager Jim Thompson said the state Transportation Department had problems with the design because it wasn't capable of supporting large maintenance vehicles.

State officials also suggested the city might be required to use only bridge-certified fabricators for the steel needed for the project, raising the price on materials.

This requirement doubled the structural loading requirements of the bridge, forcing a total redesign of the bridge deck structure. That's why it's a truss bridge now, instead of a suspension bridge as originally designed - it's a vehicle-rated bridge that's restricted to pedestrians only. All thanks to ODOT throwing a fit because they want to drive their trucks onto the bridge.

[shawnw]

It's a long video and audio quality suffers at times due to how far back the camera is, but this was a MAPS 4 panel moderated by Steve that had Ward 6/7 councilors/candidates and Roy Williams with the chamber. The highway cap among other things were discussed.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yes, the cost estimate soared to double the original estimate - from $5.2 million to $12.8 million - due largely to the redesign needed to bow to ODOT's demands. From your first article link:



This requirement doubled the structural loading requirements of the bridge, forcing a total redesign of the bridge deck structure. That's why it's a truss bridge now, instead of a suspension bridge as originally designed - it's a vehicle-rated bridge that's restricted to pedestrians only. All thanks to ODOT throwing a fit because they want to drive their trucks onto the bridge.

Is this a normal requirement to be able to drive trucks over pedestrian bridges? What I mean by that, is do other states that build these bridges require that?

[TheTravellers]

It wasn't city engineers - it was ODOT. ODOT forced the changes because they wanted to be able to drive vehicles on it in case they needed to make repairs.

Thanks for the correction. However, our city engineering dept. is still crap a lot of the time.

[baralheia]

Is this a normal requirement to be able to drive trucks over pedestrian bridges? What I mean by that, is do other states that build these bridges require that?

I'm not a professional in this area, but I don't believe so, no. From what I understand, ODOT's reasoning is they needed the ability to get maintenance trucks on the bridge, mostly for maintenance and repair of the scissortail flycatcher sculpture.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not a professional in this area, but I don't believe so, no. From what I understand, ODOT's reasoning is they needed the ability to get maintenance trucks on the bridge, mostly for maintenance and repair of the scissortail flycatcher sculpture.

Not even pedestrian bridges are safe from cars in Oklahoma!

[Dustin]

I've had the good fortune to reconnect with a zoo I probably hadn't gone to in 25-30 years when it became fun to bring the kid to the zoo. We're zoo members now and probably go twice a month when the weather is decent. I was lucky enough to be a well-travelled kid. I've been to most states. We'd take these three-week vacations in the summer where we'd drive with a camper all over different regions of the U.S. to experience what all they have to offer. I remember being told we were going to the best zoo in the U.S. (this was in the 1980s) at the San Diego Zoo. I recall not being all that impressed.. it wasn't much of a step above the OKC Zoo at the time.

Things have changed greatly since the 1980s, and San Diego is ridiculously successful. The OKC Zoo still punches above its weight, but with the aquarium now being closed, and basically the entire east end of the zoo essentially abandoned past the stingray exhibit, it's getting the feel of an outfit which is struggling. Sure, they added the elephant exhibit--which is a world class exhibit. The Asia exhibit was pretty underwhelming when it finally came online. It seems like they are drastically scaling back on the number of exhibits and that they've made the decision to only do a few exhibits, but do them very well. So certain exhibits in the zoo are new and state of the art. Others were built in the 1950s and before and have some pretty serious maintenance issues.

Unlike a lot of those other items, like sports arenas which will be nothing but money holes, public investment in the zoo is something all of the public can actually enjoy. Tourism is a huge industry, a world class aquarium or other exhibits would bring in lots of dollars and permanently employ a lot of folks.

I swear I didn't see your comment before posting mine. Lol. I like your idea better.

[Laramie]

The Canopy at the Zoo could operate their food services at a new Zoo Aquarian to replace the old Aquarian funded by a MAPS 4 initiative with a budget of $150 million capital improvements project.

Partner with the Women's College World Series & the World Cup of Softball events. The Zoo or Remington Park might consider building a 300 room hotel (get a reputable flag operator like Great Wolf Lodge, Holiday Inn or Four Points by Sheraton) in the area that could provide service for area events.

If the Adventure District has a hotel in the area along with the Aquarian, the events in the area would pull cross-country travel to the area where you have the The Zoo (Aquarian, various exhibits), Race park & casino. Expand those events like a mini Rocklahoma style festival for the Zoo Amphitheater.

If you going to let them gamble--let's go BIG with some Vegas style operations in the area--Oklahoma City needs to go BIG, draw those big spenders from Texas & cross county travelers, you'll see an Austin-style boom in Oklahoma City. The Persimmon Hill area is among the most scenic red clay hills of heavily traveled old historic Route 66. For God's sake, push & promote our Western Heritage, Cowboy & Native American Indian themes...

[Laramie]

Love Plutonic Panda's description moniker 'Oklahoma's love affair for the cheap train,' of which many posters agree; we need to wash that dandruff right out of our hair.

[BoulderSooner]

The new aquarium of approved will be in the downtown area. Preliminary work/designs have already started

[LocoAko]

The new aquarium of approved will be in the downtown area. Preliminary work/designs have already started

Where?

[soonerguru]

For those who care, here are my MAPS picks:

1. Citywide beautification of major corridors. We have seen again and again what a catalyst street and intersection improvements are toward the improvement of our neighborhoods and business districts. This is a critical quality of life component that affects the way we view our neighborhoods, our sense of happiness and safety, as well as the businesses we choose to frequent. This is a direct strike effort that would not only make our city a more attractive place to live, this would also be a hit with voters, many of whom have felt (wrong or right) that too much of MAPS's focus in the past has been on Downtown (I have supported all of the MAPS votes, by the way).

2. Mental Health, Homeless, Addiction Center: We need a facility downtown that can connect people to resources for survival and recovery. And we need to stop using the County Jail as an intake facility for people in need. This is critical to improving our city's quality of life (and improving our economic future).

3. Schools. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. I don't know what, but the OKC school system should strive to be the envy at least of the OKC metro area, and I believe there are some things we could do to help:

- providing athletic, arts, band equipment / uniforms, perhaps improvements to athletic fields and courts
- providing resources for libraries and media centers
- providing funding for in-class materials

Also, I believe OKC should strive to attract the most dedicated, professional teachers. You get what you pay for. Can we not consider offering a pay bump to teachers (hopefully with education certificates when possible) who are willing to teach in OKC schools? We should pay more than Edmond, Norman, Moore, and Yukon. They should be paid more to do the job.

This is a very significant economic development issue for our city and by voluntarily investing in our schools, we would not be depriving ourselves from future state funding, because the funding formula is set and is dependent on enrollment. More enrollment in our schools would result in additional state funding to OKC schools.

4. Streetcar Expansion and additional buses. I support James Cooper's idea to add to our bus fleet. I also support the concept of streetcar expansion -- if and where supported by the recommendations of professional transit experts. Some of the routes for streetcar expansion I'm seeing discussed here and elsewhere may not be justifiable. There needs to exist sufficient density and ridership -- perhaps coupled with opportunity for Transit Oriented Development -- to justify streetcar expansion. And while I generally support it, I only do so with the caveat that my preconceived ideas about where streetcars should go may be incorrect. I'm generally agnostic about the transit mode, I just want better transit, whether it be BRT, bus, or streetcar.

These are the things I really care about. It's not exhaustive and there are other things I might support, but I will definitely not support the highway cap. It is a ridiculous waste of money with dubious benefit; it wouldn't even accomplish what its promoters promise: it would not connect Downtown with the Medical District in any meaningful way except esthetically.

Also, never forget the reason we no longer have the original I-40: we could not pay to maintain the elevated roadway. We do not want to saddle ourselves with this costly bridge upkeep with no guarantee of future federal funding.

Let's fix the existing corridors that cross 1-235 to make them better for pedestrians and cyclists, and let's add true connection to the Innovation District and Northeast OKC with better transit options.

That's my two cents.

[d-usa]

Didn’t we just have “Maps4Kids”?

[soonerguru]

Didn’t we just have “Maps4Kids”?

If by "just" you mean 15 years ago, yes.