OnCue OKC Expansion

[Plutonic Panda]

Well, we're not building 'whatever', so would you like to take another stab at making whatever your point is?

My apologies, sure. We’re building a cookie cutter gas station in area we are trying to showcase as our “look we’re moving away from cars.”

It’s smack dab in the middle of corridor that has a new urbanist community being built to the south and an area to north that was just reduced from four to two lanes with bike lanes as an effort to strengthen the areas appeal to active transportation and more pedestrian oriented development.

Furthermore, the road right next to it(Classen) is proposed to be reduced from six to four lanes with a bus lane as part of a BRT corridor.

But hey, lets just make sure we don’t let that area get too great. Let’s dead end western at a cul de sac for a new elevated boulevard we’re build and while we’re at it, let’s throw in a gas station that has no unique design, completely developed to get cars in and out as quick as possible(as the point to a gas station is to fuel cars), and is the complete opposite of what urban development is because a few people believe the area has no identity.

FYI, this was what was originally proposed: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...ght=13+Chelsea

It evolved from that glass build on the first to post to this: http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r...Western-Avenue

So my point is actually several:

1. This development sucks.

2. This area does have identity. For the sake of arguement even if it didn’t this will set the areas identity— a cookie cutter gas station designed for cars with very little pedestrian interaction in mind.

3. This development sucks.

4. Actually part of 2 but this be a further blow to the western corridor which the city does things like narrow the road, reduce the speed limit, talks about how great the road is becoming for pedestrians and cyclists then allows OkDOT to end it right in the core as a cul de sac and further allows for a cookie gas station to be built.

5. This development sucks.

Don’t mind me though, if you support it then congratulations. You’ll get your gas station. I’ve never been a fan of OnCues as I’ve said and I don’t like the mega gas station concept in general.

[Plutonic Panda]

In urbanist design trees make the pedestrian feel protected from cars.

That design also fosters a better street interaction with the build as it’s closer to where pedestrians walk and not separated by landscaping. That is also why the new MJ ATTORNEY’s buildings is not good urbanism either.

[Dob Hooligan]

Seems like much of what we are discussing is ideals versus realities. "Getting rid of cars" is impossible in OKC, and the demand for it in this area ignores the economic needs of the neighborhood. It is still a scruffy area, and doesn't have the geographic protection of The Hill, Steelyard, Bricktown, etc...

Here's what I know from 35 years in the urban area: Always keep a five and five ones in the left front pocket to give something to the beggars at the gas pump. Have the credit card out of wallet and in pocket before stopping at the pump (never put it back in the wallet until leaving the area). Go inside the station as soon as beginning to pump fuel. 7-11 always has too much inventory in too tight spaces inside, where I stand in line for an uncomfortable amount of time while indifferent employees ring up purchases. The neighboring "Skanky-Gas" probably feels/is safer, but you need some time to figure out the customer base.

I don't love OnCue, or the idea that I should spend money with a company that is directly trying to hurt OKC owned 7-11 stores (which are the only 7-11 stores that are independent of the international chain). But I feel safer, and the prices and products are top of market.

Cookie cutter be damned. Urban customers deserve safety, quality and value.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ you make good points but I’m not advocating getting rid of cars— quite the contrary. In fact my plan would leave more space for cars as I’d keep Classen at six lanes, propose and under pass for western under classen to connect each end, and have classen AND western go under the boulevard with a larger superstructure. My BRT classen plan would add two lanes in the median of classen where the grass and trees are. But those plans are either pipe dreams or just the ship sailed.

But I still argue with all of that dedicated car infrastructure, it would be more pedestrian friendly under my plan. However the reality is pretty much what have now and this gas station can still tend to to cars while fostering a more walkable area. The egress for cars would be a bit more restrictive, but that’s to be expected in dense urban areas.

I agree the immediate area doesn’t have much character, but for crying out loud, if anything, that’s more reason to be MORE careful what is built so as to set the standard for future development in the area.

PS, cookie cutter development is in way exclusive to suburban areas. I won’t go off on a rant but I’m seeing it all the time in LA with new developments. IMO, cookie cutter development has its place as I’m sure it’s cheaper to design but within the exisitjg urban areas and neighborhoods of OKC, we should be careful not to encourage such development.

[Thomas Vu]

I don't love OnCue, or the idea that I should spend money with a company that is directly trying to hurt OKC owned 7-11 stores (which are the only 7-11 stores that are independent of the international chain). But I feel safer, and the prices and products are top of market.

Cookie cutter be damned. Urban customers deserve safety, quality and value.

None of which the 7/11s here really did until OnCue came in

[d-usa]

I get loyalty to a local chain, but that same loyalty should flow back from the chain to the community. 7-11 let their stores stagnate and were happy to let us have an inferior product due to lack of competition.

It’s the same reason I won’t “buy American” if it’s just an inferior product.

[stile99]

Before the "shop local" train leaves the station, I'd like to get on board. My travel companion is "OnCue is a local company, and hasn't treated the OKC market like crap". Where do we check our luggage? It's a matter of semantics, I suppose, but the accusation that by giving the customers what they want they are 'directly trying to hurt' 7-11 says a LOT more about 7-11 than it does about OnCue, if you think about it.

Case in point, the experience at 7-11 that was described above. If someone coming in with well-lit stores, ones where beggars aren't hanging out at the pumps, and an overall much better customer experience is 'hurting' 7-11, then I'm selling popcorn to watch the well-earned beatdown.

[Dob Hooligan]

I did not mean to defend 7-11 at a high level. I am disappointed that they became dominant in our market by being just a little bit better than the competition and then coasted, IMO. I am of the opinion that they have made a tremendous amount of money over the last 30ish years, should have seen this new threat coming, and practically invited it through their inaction.

I think OnCue has a very good operation. One thing I learned through living in the urban core during the 1990s is that those suburban, cookie-cutter stores are actually pretty nice, and in short supply in the central city.

[Pete]

The OnCue at NW 13th & Western/Classen will go to city council on Tuesday with final approval set for 2/26.

[BridgeBurner]

Pete, is OnCue still going to make the improvements to the intersection that you mentioned in #667? That intersection is a mess and its almost worse coming from the west due to the nonsensical street layout of Ten-Penn. From Penn: 12th, 13th, and 14th all dead-end so your options are drive through the Plaza district (pretty slow going) or drive down 10th and turn past an existing 7-11 to get to the nicer but harder to reach gas station (which I will gladly do, I hate that 7-11).
Also, Nextdoor people who attend the meetings have confirmed what you said about OnCue relocating the historic houses onto vacant lots.

[Pete]

OnCue said they would pay for improvements to that 13th/Western/Classen intersection.

[Plutonic Panda]

From Steve's chat:

JoBeth: We are still awaiting a city council vote. From feed back I've received from folks in surrounding neighborhoods is they are not excited about having such a suburban style gas station in this area that has become more dense and walkable. I do understand that On Cue has worked with the neighborhood and the commissions to make it as pedestrian friendly as possible. But there is already a gas station around there. It doesn't make sense to me to have a very suburban gas station there even though they have made modifications.

I really hope they are successful in killing this project. Good for the people of OKC to finally stand up and not be deterred like gimmicky tactics of more landscaping which should be standard or those who are playing a strawman; I'm referring to the people who are trying to say that "they don't want trees" after there is a repeated push to have higher standards for landscaping around OKC. I've never been a fan of OnCue or the mega gas station concept and I'm certainly no fan of placing a cookie cutter gas station in an area that has seen good developments and prospects lately for increased walkability and urbanism.

[Pete]

^

That project come up for final council vote in a couple of weeks, before JoBeth and the James start their terms.

[Plutonic Panda]

It's likely to passed?

[Pete]

It's likely to passed?

Yes.

[Dob Hooligan]

But here's the thing about those cookie cutter, suburban mega gas stations; they're pretty damn nice. One thing I learned from living at 14th and Robinson throughout the 1990s is that the gritty, authentic, urban life has some shortcomings in the quality of life area. Big name brands and open square footage were in horribly short supply then and still are now, in some areas. We all love Uptown 23 and the Plaza District, but, as a neighborhood resident, sometimes you think that you deserve to have the convenience of a Sonic Drive In, or an OnCue (with a beer cave, spacious aisles, check out lines that are less than 5 people deep, space around the many gas pumps and a lower chance of being hit up for money from the beggars).

Urban areas deserve these services, IMO.

[Plutonic Panda]

But here's the thing about those cookie cutter, suburban mega gas stations; they're pretty damn nice. One thing I learned from living at 14th and Robinson throughout the 1990s is that the gritty, authentic, urban life has some shortcomings in the quality of life area. Big name brands and open square footage were in horribly short supply then and still are now, in some areas. We all love Uptown 23 and the Plaza District, but, as a neighborhood resident, sometimes you think that you deserve to have the convenience of a Sonic Drive In, or an OnCue (with a beer cave, spacious aisles, check out lines that are less than 5 people deep, space around the many gas pumps and a lower chance of being hit up for money from the beggars).

Urban areas deserve these services, IMO.

You should have a look at some of the gas stations around LA. They're nice and have a unique design which contributes to the unique characteristics each neighborhood LA has. Not make a strawman here as I know you weren't saying this, but you don't have to have a mega cookie cutter gas station in order for it to be nice.

[Plutonic Panda]

But here's the thing about those cookie cutter, suburban mega gas stations; they're pretty damn nice. One thing I learned from living at 14th and Robinson throughout the 1990s is that the gritty, authentic, urban life has some shortcomings in the quality of life area. Big name brands and open square footage were in horribly short supply then and still are now, in some areas. We all love Uptown 23 and the Plaza District, but, as a neighborhood resident, sometimes you think that you deserve to have the convenience of a Sonic Drive In, or an OnCue (with a beer cave, spacious aisles, check out lines that are less than 5 people deep, space around the many gas pumps and a lower chance of being hit up for money from the beggars).

Urban areas deserve these services, IMO.

In major urban areas you often see businesses that even rely on drive thru's elsewhere not provide any.

[Dob Hooligan]

In major urban areas you often see businesses that even rely on drive thru's elsewhere not provide any.

Yes, but I would suggest that would be due to geographic density and/or high land acquisition costs. Neither of which are a problem in Oklahoma City IMO. In fact, at over 600 square miles, OKC probably has too much land, since all of it deserves services and protections like downtown gets.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yes, but I would suggest that would be due to geographic density and/or high land acquisition costs. Neither of which are a problem in Oklahoma City IMO. In fact, at over 600 square miles, OKC probably has too much land, since all of it deserves services and protections like downtown gets.

Unlikely. It's due to the fact that drive thru's prioritize car traffic over walkability, not geographical restraints or a demand for density.

[Ross MacLochness]

But here's the thing about those cookie cutter, suburban mega gas stations; they're pretty damn nice. One thing I learned from living at 14th and Robinson throughout the 1990s is that the gritty, authentic, urban life has some shortcomings in the quality of life area. Big name brands and open square footage were in horribly short supply then and still are now, in some areas. We all love Uptown 23 and the Plaza District, but, as a neighborhood resident, sometimes you think that you deserve to have the convenience of a Sonic Drive In, or an OnCue (with a beer cave, spacious aisles, check out lines that are less than 5 people deep, space around the many gas pumps and a lower chance of being hit up for money from the beggars).

Urban areas deserve these services, IMO.

Dude you can't compare living in the core now to living in the core in the 90s. It's much much much safer now and far more developed. There is a trend towards walkability and being able to walk somewhere is seen as being convenient. I live in the uptown area and don't have to wait in lines "5 people deep" for anything nor do I get hit up for money all the time. Gas stations, even huge on cues aren't bad, and you are right, on-cues have a lot of products members of the community would want to buy, but the problem is that the design and scale are just counter to the very efforts making these places safer and more interesting.

[Ross MacLochness]

Yes, but I would suggest that would be due to geographic density and/or high land acquisition costs. Neither of which are a problem in Oklahoma City IMO. In fact, at over 600 square miles, OKC probably has too much land, since all of it deserves services and protections like downtown gets.

This is the precise reason we shouldn't build on cues in the core. We need to create a certain level of density for a whole host of reasons, and building a sprawling, one story, auto-centric facility will likely be counter productive.

[onthestrip]

From Steve's chat:

JoBeth: We are still awaiting a city council vote. From feed back I've received from folks in surrounding neighborhoods is they are not excited about having such a suburban style gas station in this area that has become more dense and walkable. I do understand that On Cue has worked with the neighborhood and the commissions to make it as pedestrian friendly as possible. But there is already a gas station around there. It doesn't make sense to me to have a very suburban gas station there even though they have made modifications.

I really hope they are successful in killing this project. Good for the people of OKC to finally stand up and not be deterred like gimmicky tactics of more landscaping which should be standard or those who are playing a strawman; I'm referring to the people who are trying to say that "they don't want trees" after there is a repeated push to have higher standards for landscaping around OKC. I've never been a fan of OnCue or the mega gas station concept and I'm certainly no fan of placing a cookie cutter gas station in an area that has seen good developments and prospects lately for increased walkability and urbanism.

Ok, talking about design and site planning, fine, we should want good design. But JoBeth bringing up the fact that there is already a gas station in the area? Sorry councilwoman, your job isnt to limit investment or competition because you think demand is already being met. That gas station is dirty, unsightly and very small. It can serve only a fraction of what OnCue could serve. And if OnCue, or any other business, submits plans to build something, properly follows any rezoning, plan approvals, etc., and even has community meetings and most people are on board, then they should be allowed to build.

I dont care if theres 20 gas stations all clustered together, as long as they are allowed its not your job as council member to deny it.

[Dob Hooligan]

I think we're nearing a "chicken or the egg" discussion. Major metropolitan areas are, by definition, densely populated. And that density creates higher real estate costs and making do in smaller spaces. It also creates functional walkability. At over 600 square miles, OKC is working on aspirational walkability IMO.

[Plutonic Panda]

Ok, talking about design and site planning, fine, we should want good design. But JoBeth bringing up the fact that there is already a gas station in the area? Sorry councilwoman, your job isnt to limit investment or competition because you think demand is already being met. That gas station is dirty, unsightly and very small. It can serve only a fraction of what OnCue could serve. And if OnCue, or any other business, submits plans to build something, properly follows any rezoning, plan approvals, etc., and even has community meetings and most people are on board, then they should be allowed to build.

I dont care if theres 20 gas stations all clustered together, as long as they are allowed its not your job as council member to deny it.

I disagree. It doesn’t matter now because what I want isn’t happening and the gas station will be built. This isn’t the worst thing to have happened in OKC lately.