OnCue OKC Expansion

[stile99]

Also, I wish some trees were between the street and the sidewalk.

I don't believe planting trees in the right of way is an option for them. Could be wrong, would love for someone more familiar with the law to chime in.

Personally, 'walkability' can go fornicate itself if it means planting trees so close to the roadway that they block visibility and cause accidents.

[Plutonic Panda]

Thumbs down.

[Jersey Boss]

Lol, Manhatten is about as urban as it comes and I don't recall seeing trees planted around gas stations when I lived back in Jersey.

[OKC Talker]

Still debating but here are some interesting bits of info.

OnCue is proposing to do the following all at their expense:

- Move the homes on their properties to other lots
- Install much more landscaping than is required by code (1st photo below)
- Improve the 13th and Classen/Western intersection (2nd photo)

A few clarifications:
- They offered to donate the homes but not pay for actually moving them or have someone lined up to accept them (other than "talks" with Positively Paseo who built one of the homes they'd tear down)
- The landscaping is just another example of the "suburban" design that makes it inappropriate for this location
- Even with improvements, the Western intersection will still be rated an F because of the increased gas station traffic with average delays of up to 90 seconds

I thought all the talk about not including a speaker box on their drive through was a great illustration of this whole process. OnCue doesn't have any speaker boxes in any of their drive throughs, and never had any plans to put in a speaker box at this location, but it was one of the major concessions they made to not have a speaker box in the design. How kind!

[Pete]

A few clarifications:
- They offered to donate the homes but not pay for actually moving them or have someone lined up to accept them (other than "talks" with Positively Paseo who built one of the homes they'd tear down)

That was not my understanding .

From the Oklahoman: "Box said OnCue has arranged to move the homes and donate them for new addresses with nonprofit urban home developer Positively Paseo."

[TheTravellers]

That was not my understanding .

From the Oklahoman: "Box said OnCue has arranged to move the homes and donate them for new addresses with nonprofit urban home developer Positively Paseo."

"arranged" is ambiguous enough to mean they won't pay for it, but "donate" does seem to make it clear they will foot the cost. With the money they're printing, they'll probably just hit the "no sale" button on a register and take some petty cash out to do it, glad they stepped up for the houses, even if the station design sucks.

[Pete]

I just wrote this in a private message but I will post here as well:


Who actually pays to move the houses is a minor point and even if that wasn't their initial plan, OnCue would have agreed to underwrite that in order to get the approval.

We may not always like the outcome but my primary interest is that people know what is going on and that proper process is followed.

We broke this story long before anyone else (I worked on it a long time before we published) and gave residents and surrounding businesses plenty of opportunity to get organized, which they did. OnCue met with concerned parties several times. The item was continued an additional month to allow more input.

The commission members were all fully engaged, most spoke at length, and plenty of opponents also had their say.

And in the end, the vote wasn't even close.


If people don't like the outcome they should lobby for stricter design standards, as that's the way to address something like this. As it stands, the commission really could not deny their application as there are gas stations throughout the urban core and most are total junk.

And there are thousands of commercial properties that abut residential neighborhoods. OKC's development pattern is commercial developments along major streets with housing behind and that is the case all up and down Western and Classen.

This will sail through city council as well.

[Plutonic Panda]

It will sail through city council and OKC will sail ever closer to becoming a giant cookie cutter wasteland with no soul.

I get that’s a bit harsh but it sure is disappointing to see how many people(on here and other social media sites) get so excited over a gas station and don’t care how it is built. Great to see trees but this should be standard on all of their properties. Have some damn pride for f@cks sake.

Someone posted an example of an urban gas station in Atlanta which was cool. I don’t like OnCue’s TBH, but I will admit they are nice facilities and are raising the bar in OKC. It just sucks how we went from a really nice urban development on this property where the homes would have been left alone to a giant cookie cutter gas station which is apparently okay now because they are planting more trees than they usually do.

Pete, I completely agree about stricter design standards. I messaged Mayor Holt about this and I interpreted his response as not very supportive but take that with a grain of salt and message him for yourself to get his stance on it. We also should have city wide design review. I don’t know if most cities have that but I would support it.

OKC is one of the only cities I notice that has so many ugly buildings surrounding the interstate and I-35 is particularly bad about this. Maybe I’m just harsh on OKC because I’m biased.

[stile99]

The landscaping is just another example of the "suburban" design that makes it inappropriate for this location

Great to see trees but this should be standard on all of their properties.

Make up your damn minds. This is part of the problem with OKC. A bunch of people on this side of the room yell for more trees, a bunch of people on the other side of the room yell for fewer trees. The city patiently listens to both sides and then does whatever the heck they want, because 'the people' clearly don't know what they want.

[Plutonic Panda]

Make up your damn minds. This is part of the problem with OKC. A bunch of people on this side of the room yell for more trees, a bunch of people on the other side of the room yell for fewer trees. The city patiently listens to both sides and then does whatever the heck they want, because 'the people' clearly don't know what they want.

What am I unclear about? I said I’m glad to see more trees.

Urban design: trees and/or landscaping go in between the sidewalk and the road.

Suburban design: trees and/or landscaping goes in between the building and the sidewalk.

In urban design the sidewalk should be right up against the building with landscaping acting as a buffer between it and the street. Suburban layouts are complete opposite. You can still have trees and good urban design. In fact a good tree canopy arguably enhances urban life and reduces urban heat island effect or whatever it’s called.

In fact, I believe my statement advocates for more trees in the city as I said it should be the standard for all of their stores.

[stile99]

What am I unclear about? I said I’m glad to see more trees.

Read the other message quoted.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ I can’t speak for the other poster, but regardless it is good to have differing opinions. It usually leads to balance which is a good thing.

[Dob Hooligan]

I do not like trees between the street and sidewalk for the following: They block the view of traffic and this is a runoff from a 4 lane section line road, with a 40 MPH speed limit. Years after planting the trees grow to where their roots and base rise up to where they buckle the sidewalk and/or the curb.


An interesting quote from the NewsOK article was from Planning Commissioner Michael Hensley, who stated that he had voted against the first OnCue application at NW Expressway and Wilshire 8 years ago, which he now regrets. "Experience has shown that similar development in my neighborhood has been a benefit...they improved the intersection..."

[Plutonic Panda]

I do not like trees between the street and sidewalk for the following: They block the view of traffic and this is a runoff from a 4 lane section line road, with a 40 MPH speed limit. Years after planting the trees grow to where their roots and base rise up to where they buckle the sidewalk and/or the curb.


An interesting quote from the NewsOK article was from Planning Commissioner Michael Hensley, who stated that he had voted against the first OnCue application at NW Expressway and Wilshire 8 years ago, which he now regrets. "Experience has shown that similar development in my neighborhood has been a benefit...they improved the intersection..."

It might come to a shock for many on here but this is where I would advocate for a lower speed limit. Good urban design is good urban design no matter which way you put it in placing landscaping in between the building in the sidewalk is bad urban design. You can still design a sidewalk that directly Pushes up against the street and still have trees planted on it With minimal sight line disruptions.

[soonerguru]

Relocating the houses is akin to "saving the bus station sign" and integrating it into the development. There is no historically relevant structure being razed here, but offering to plant some trees and move some houses is so condescending to people who care about preserving urban fabric and encouraging appropriate land use. I struggle to evaluate renderings at times but OnCue *the faux QuikTrip* just seems like a terrible fit for an urban location. I guess the footprint of this store is more appropriate to urban scale? I don't know but I'm not a big OnCue fan.

[soonerguru]

Make up your damn minds. This is part of the problem with OKC. A bunch of people on this side of the room yell for more trees, a bunch of people on the other side of the room yell for fewer trees. The city patiently listens to both sides and then does whatever the heck they want, because 'the people' clearly don't know what they want.

I think the bifurcation is not about people not making up their damn minds, it's about developers not getting it. We love trees. Yes to trees. But building out urban fabric requires nuance. This particular spot on Classen Blvd. calls for more urbanity and density. Can trees be incorporated? Of course. But this is like arguing with your redneck uncle at Thanksgiving and shows how clueless some of our developers are. You can imagine them huddling in their office with the lawyer throwing spaghetti at the wall: "What if we produce a rendering with lots of trees? Don't those weird hippie urbanists love trees?" This general lack of "getting it" is why OKC looks mighty ****ty. It's an incoherent mess of confused design. Everything in its place. Have you been to Paris?

[Rover]

I think the bifurcation is not about people not making up their damn minds, it's about developers not getting it. We love trees. Yes to trees. But building out urban fabric requires nuance. This particular spot on Classen Blvd. calls for more urbanity and density. Can trees be incorporated? Of course. But this is like arguing with your redneck uncle at Thanksgiving and shows how clueless some of our developers are. You can imagine them huddling in their office with the lawyer throwing spaghetti at the wall: "What if we produce a rendering with lots of trees? Don't those weird hippie urbanists love trees?" This general lack of "getting it" is why OKC looks mighty ****ty. It's an incoherent mess of confused design. Everything in its place. Have you been to Paris?

Which part of Paris are you referring to? The 200 year old Paris or the modern Paris. I’ve been more than 30 times and have spent significant times in many parts of Paris that are way different than most imagine because they just see travel pictures. The old part was built in a completely different time with different social, demographic, economic, transportation, technological, and political conditions. Surely you cannot suggest OKC can and will develop like Paris or any of the old European city cores. We need to develop what is reality in Oklahoma.

[Dob Hooligan]

This project is not a negative for the area, IMO. The west side of Classen/Western doesn't have a clear identity south of 18th street. Seems to be a combination of various post WW2 commercial buildings. Within the last 10-12 years some new construction includes the Sunbeam Family Services building (which looks "too nice for the area") and 7-11 (which didn't appear to provide any of the landscaping and other concessions that OnCue did). It may be cookie-cutter, or corporate, but it is also better choices at lower prices for an urban area.

I have driven that stretch of road regularly for 40 years, and that specific plot of land has been a crap property for the entire time. This might offend out gritty, urban sensibilities, but it is something that is going to be used by a large portion of it's neighbors and make a lot of money.

[Plutonic Panda]

So just because an area doesn’t have an identity means we should build whatever there?

[stile99]

So just because an area doesn’t have an identity means we should build whatever there?

Well, we're not building 'whatever', so would you like to take another stab at making whatever your point is?

[Uptowner]

Has anyone had the discussion about what could potentially become of the scab of a gas station on the flatiron lot across the stree after it inevitably closes?

[Uptowner]

Btw I don’t get all the bickering abou trees, why couldn’t hey just be planted behind the sidewalk? Who wants trees between the car and ped right of ways?

[Dob Hooligan]

Out of my love for this group, I made the sacrifice this morning and drove around the area of discussion for a half hour. 10h east to Western, north to 23rd, east to Robinson, south to 14th, 14th to Broadway, Broadway to 13th, west to Western, and back south to 10th. Appears the landscaping proposed for OnCue is in line with what has been done at other properties of size within the last 20 years. Homeland, 7-11, Sunbeam, CVS, Walgreens, MBOKC UCD all have trees 6-10 feet from the curb and sidewalk in between. And all other properties on this route are doing something along the same lines.

Western is almost all commercial on this stretch and what residential remains is largely out of place and less well maintained. The specific OnCue location has been mostly vacant land for decades and doesn't appear to offer a high quality of life if it were to be residential. 13th going west then sweeping south into Western give the appearance of cars bearing down on east facing lots. I don't find any unifying or majority design theme for commercial or residential buildings.

[shawnw]

Has anyone had the discussion about what could potentially become of the scab of a gas station on the flatiron lot across the stree after it inevitably closes?

At the community meeting the owner of that gulf station was present, as well as the owner of OnCue, and during a heated debate betweeen them, the OnCue owner said something like (paraphrasing) "why would you over to sell your land to me previously if you believe so strongly in the small businesses in the neighborhood".

[shawnw]

Btw I don’t get all the bickering abou trees, why couldn’t hey just be planted behind the sidewalk? Who wants trees between the car and ped right of ways?

In urbanist design trees make the pedestrian feel protected from cars.