Streetcar

[Pryor Tiger]

In the famous words of that great American poet, Jimmy Buffett:

I wish lunch could last forever
Make the whole day one big afternoon
We'll begin with dessert a little coconut tart
Mmmm tastes as sweet as a piece of your heart
Cafe au lait beneath the Paris (OKC?) moon

Love this. In France there is a 2 hour lunch expectation - and it is adhered to greatly. Take time to eat the most important meal of the day, actually relax, talk to your friends... Can we incorporate this in OKC? Then the Streetcar will be perfect

[BBatesokc]

...How do you feel about the MAPS sidewalks and trails? Are you hoping those pay for themselves too? Senior citizen centers? I’m sure those are huge profit centers for the city as well. Did we ever install paid turnstiles at the Bricktown canal? Only those who pay may walk along if?...

Apples, I'd like to introduce you to Oranges.

*In case you didn't get it. You're making ridiculous comparisons.

[HOT ROD]

My opinion as an expat, I’m very excited about OKC Streetcar and it’s return to downtown. I think this helps bring OKC to the 21 Century and the vision for transit (Bus, BRT, Streetcar, Commuter Rail) is wonderful and long overdue imo.

Here is is the concern I have and it has to do with the fares. I don’t understand why OKC is rushing the adoption of fares for the system. It would be much better to leave it free for a longer period of time to BUILD the transit mass. I’m not sure of how long this is, but it should allow normal OKC residents time to learn the system and adopt it as a mode of transportation. Some may argue keep it free until a year or so after the extensions into the neighborhoods and I honestly would agree with that.

Let me tell you all, Downtown Seattle used to have a ride-free zone where one could ride any bus in the downtown core but fares were collected on routes that went out upon exit. This was pre-2008 I believe and was a huge success for “reviving” downtown SEA as a destination. I know many of you probably can’t believe what I’m writing but it’s true. The ONLY reason the ride-free zone was abolished is because long-time department store Bon Marche was purchased my Macy’s who refused to contribute to the zone. Then Nordstrom and other players left - in part because the ride free zone had achieved its goal and in part because downtown SEA developed light rail, Commuter Rail and Commuter Bus under the Sound Transit umbrella. SEA had gained a multimidal transit system so the ride free zone was no longer necessary.

OKC, similarly, doesn’t yet have the critical mass for a fares on the streetcar to be a success. Yes it circulated but there isn’t yet any “reason”for a commuter to have to take it. There also isn’t a critical mass of retailers downtown YET so again there not much reason to have to pay to get around. Finally, given how anti transit many in OKC are I just think the honeymoon needs to be longer so that streetcar then transit becomes part of the community. Since the streetcar is downtown and I believe OKC should adopt a similar ride free zone downtown as Seattle did, there shouldn’t be fares until its extended or until CR and BRT is added.

Another example of if a free streetcar until recently? You guessed it - Portland Streetcar. Only until critical mass, pearl district high rises, AND MAX light rail nodes were built did they start charging. OKC please reconsider the fares and/or adopt a downtown ride free zone for all modes, build your transit and retail communities then start the fares for nodes outside the downtown critical mass.

[mugofbeer]

If not mistaken the OK Turnpike actually makes money but then spends it on bonds for future expansion. Transit does break even.

Before we add more the citizens need to know how much it loses. I don’t expect it to make money right away but am looking at long term. We need to learn how much it costs to subsidize if it loses money especially before we expand and then we have more miles and more loss to cover with our taxes.

I think its a fair question

For the record Hong Kong makes money and I’ve riden it what a great shstem. Same in Japan and I’ve riden it too.

A couple of things - first, to the previous statement that the new system isn't designed for longer trips - why not? The systems in Denver, Dallas and SLC all convert to streetcars downtown then work quite well as faster trains outside downtown. Its not for long distance but there is no reason what we have couldn't go a few miles with cars attached. You mentioned how Hong Kongs system makes a profit, HK real estate is extremely expensive because of the lay of the land. Their system bought the land where stations would be built and has made very long tem lease agreements with developers to build large-scale multi-use developments at those stations. The developers have not only built stations for the city but provide lease payments to the system. l dont know about Japan. but like HKong and Japan, OKC is a whole different ballgame.

[OKC2017]

i wonder if there even is the remote conceptual proposal being discussed between city authorities, developers and business owners of converting oklahoma ave into one single, uninterrupted axis that runs from the i-235 exit at nw 13th and pierces right into the middle of the producers coop site. if such a continuous axis existed it would make total sense to connect deep deuce, bricktown and producers coop with a line of the streetcar running along oklahoma ave. i know u-haul is one of the major obstacles and the other is the parking lot just south of sw 2nd by the deep deuce dog park. but if those hurdles could be resolved (and i mean $$$) the streetcar would really start to transcend and change the urban landscape of downtown.

[soonerguru]

My opinion as an expat, I’m very excited about OKC Streetcar and it’s return to downtown. I think this helps bring OKC to the 21 Century and the vision for transit (Bus, BRT, Streetcar, Commuter Rail) is wonderful and long overdue imo.

Here is is the concern I have and it has to do with the fares. I don’t understand why OKC is rushing the adoption of fares for the system. It would be much better to leave it free for a longer period of time to BUILD the transit mass. I’m not sure of how long this is, but it should allow normal OKC residents time to learn the system and adopt it as a mode of transportation. Some may argue keep it free until a year or so after the extensions into the neighborhoods and I honestly would agree with that.

Let me tell you all, Downtown Seattle used to have a ride-free zone where one could ride any bus in the downtown core but fares were collected on routes that went out upon exit. This was pre-2008 I believe and was a huge success for “reviving” downtown SEA as a destination. I know many of you probably can’t believe what I’m writing but it’s true. The ONLY reason the ride-free zone was abolished is because long-time department store Bon Marche was purchased my Macy’s who refused to contribute to the zone. Then Nordstrom and other players left - in part because the ride free zone had achieved its goal and in part because downtown SEA developed light rail, Commuter Rail and Commuter Bus under the Sound Transit umbrella. SEA had gained a multimidal transit system so the ride free zone was no longer necessary.

OKC, similarly, doesn’t yet have the critical mass for a fares on the streetcar to be a success. Yes it circulated but there isn’t yet any “reason”for a commuter to have to take it. There also isn’t a critical mass of retailers downtown YET so again there not much reason to have to pay to get around. Finally, given how anti transit many in OKC are I just think the honeymoon needs to be longer so that streetcar then transit becomes part of the community. Since the streetcar is downtown and I believe OKC should adopt a similar ride free zone downtown as Seattle did, there shouldn’t be fares until its extended or until CR and BRT is added.

Another example of if a free streetcar until recently? You guessed it - Portland Streetcar. Only until critical mass, pearl district high rises, AND MAX light rail nodes were built did they start charging. OKC please reconsider the fares and/or adopt a downtown ride free zone for all modes, build your transit and retail communities then start the fares for nodes outside the downtown critical mass.

I agree with this 100%. The adoption of the streetcar since opening has been unbelievable. More than 55,000 riders in less than two weeks. Amazing. The problem with rushing the fares is that they are still literally working out kinks in the system so a lot of riders, even some of us here, didn't ride when the system was operating at its most efficient (although I really only had one slow ride).

A lot of doubters out there rode it because it was free, and suddenly seemed to "get it" after riding. There are many more of those out there.

The system should remain free throughout the month of January and possibly through the end of February to give the community an opportunity to use it freely and learn how it could be incorporated into their transit plans.

I suspect the opposition to this would come from a group of transit extremists who continue to parade the false choice argument of bus versus streetcar. Many of them are literally rooting for the streetcar to fail, for their egos? I'm not sure I will ever fully understand these CAVE people and what makes them tick. A lot of them oppose anything that may have had a Chamber connection or support from members of the business community. Many of them hate MAPS. So, they would be there to protest such a decision but their numbers are very small (but someone loud).

[HOT ROD]

A couple of things - first, to the previous statement that the new system isn't designed for longer trips - why not? The systems in Denver, Dallas and SLC all convert to streetcars downtown then work quite well as faster trains outside downtown. Its not for long distance but there is no reason what we have couldn't go a few miles with cars attached. You mentioned how Hong Kongs system makes a profit, HK real estate is extremely expensive because of the lay of the land. Their system bought the land where stations would be built and has made very long tem lease agreements with developers to build large-scale multi-use developments at those stations. The developers have not only built stations for the city but provide lease payments to the system. l dont know about Japan. but like HKong and Japan, OKC is a whole different ballgame.

Point of Clarification - the bold above is incorrect.

Those systems are light rail and while they do mix with traffic in their respective downtowns - light rail vehicles are generally hold more capacity than Streetcar and there are many fewer stops. OKC's system is a pure Streetcar at the moment and it's design is a downtown circular - which usually is free - designed to be the last mile transit of a larger system of Commuter Rail - Commuter Bus - Bus Rapid Transit - local bus that does not yet exist but OKC does have planned.

There are Two well known systems that start as light rail then convert to Streetcar once the routes go downtown, they are Portland and Seattle. And in both cases the light rail continues in the downtown but there is a mode switch 'available' to Streetcar for the last mile. Portland runs MAX light rail in the downtown streets along a transit mall, Seattle runs Link light rail in the Downtown Transit Tunnel that was originally meant for BRT and convertible-Commuter Bus. Streetcars in both cases link up to the light rail lines but the Light Rail does not 'become' streetcar when it hits downtown.

I see OKC doing similar eventually where the Streetcar circulates downtown (and has tenticles into the inner city); the Streetcar connects to Commuter Rail at Santa Fe (from Edmond, Norman, Midwest City), to BRT from NWX/Piedmont and possibly from El Reno/Yukon and Mustang/WRWA, and Commuter Bus to metro suburbs and local bus at the OKC Transfer hub. Such a multi-modal system could then use a fare system quite well in that there is a critical mass of users on the system that are totally dependent upon the modes (ie, they didn't drive their car in).

Until then, I believe OKC Streetcar should be free or that OKC should implement a Downtown Ride Free Zone (to be fair) for bus and Streetcar where fares are only collected for rides out of downtown or before riders get to the downtown zone. The zone could continue even after the other transit modes come online but with critical transit massing I could agree with ending it at that time.

[CCOKC]

I have been using the streetcar to commute the past few weeks. If I leave my apartment at RS Kerr and Walker at 8:15 and walk to the transit center at 4th and Hudson I catch the streetcar as it arrives at 8:20. I ride it until I get to the Auto Alley stop at 8th and Broadway and walk the 2 blocks to 9th and Robinson. It takes almost exactly the same amount of time to walk the same distance but in this cold weather, I am more comfortable for the most part. I still get a few blocks of walking in for exercise. About noon today my husband and I left our apartment and caught the streetcar just as it arrived at the transit center stop. We intended to get off at Auto Alley but since my husband has not ridden the streetcar to the 10th and Robinson stop we decided to stay on as it is Saturday and don't have to be at work at a prescribed time. Problem was, the streetcar goes right by the Elk Valley Brewery, and we haven't been there yet... I guess that is why businesses want to be located on the streetcar line.

[mugofbeer]

They only have 7 cars , now, from what l read. Unless there is a problem with the turn radius or tracks, l would think converting to a commuter street system capable of running the length of Classen or Shields for a few miles wouldn't be too hard - you would just need to use larger cars for those routes. Of course, suburban routes might require different tracks, such as RR rights-of-way, with larger capacity trains.

[BBatesokc]

...If I leave my apartment at RS Kerr and Walker at 8:15 and walk to the transit center at 4th and Hudson I catch the streetcar as it arrives at 8:20...

But, there isn't a "8:20am" scheduled time of arrival. The streetcar simply arrives whenever it arrives. You could show up at 8:18am expecting an 8:20 streetcar, but it literally might not show up for 30 more minutes. Thus the need for live GPS.

[mugofbeer]

But, there isn't a "8:20am" scheduled time of arrival. The streetcar simply arrives whenever it arrives. You could show up at 8:18am expecting an 8:20 streetcar, but it literally might not show up for 30 more minutes. Thus the need for live GPS.

It may have already been said but if Uber can do it, so should the streetcar system. Keep up the commentary and I'll bet they get it before too long

[Richard at Remax]

Had a good time riding it on Friday night. Only complaint is the times we're off significantly a few times. it would say 14 min, then drop to 4, then back up to 10, then it would show up. Not too annoying but we kept going in and out of Elk Valley brewery based on the ETA. Half our group missed it once

[Urban Pioneer]

The system should remain free throughout the month of January and possibly through the end of February to give the community an opportunity to use it freely and learn how it could be incorporated into their transit plans.

If this is how you and others feel, I would recommend contacting the EMBARK Board Members, your city councilman, the new City Manager, and the Mayor.

The decisions about how long the streetcar would be free were made under the direction of former City Manager Jim Couch and bolstered by consultants' recommendations to the EMBARK board. None of this came through the process that I am part of with MAPS 3.

Kansas City's system, by contrast, is operated under a special taxation district not dissimilar to our Downtown OKC BID. They see the streetcar not just as a valuable piece of public transportation, but as an economic revenue generator for the small businesses along the line. EMBARK, by contrast, does not weigh economic revenue generation as a responsibility under their obligations to the city and the public.

In addition, Councilman Shadid and the ACLU made it clear that Title 6 litigation was probable if the streetcar was made free for riders and the EMBARK bus system was not. Arguably, we could turn our public transit image around if our limited system was entirely "made free" for a few years until the RTA comes into being. It would be quite a statement to the rest of the country and would eliminate some of the socio-economic barriers that our sprawling city presents to those who are forced to use our public transit system. So I see and value their arguments about equity. While I am sure some people would take issue with my assertions about Jim Couch, public transit was never a forefront agenda item for him. We could have done much more but what was accomplished under his tenure was incremental and via a grueling process begging for funds. Hopefully, that will change as 2018 really may have ushered in a new era.

Finally, while this equity argument is reasonable, charging for the streetcar does present a barrier and the sales tax revenue generated from increased business activity could help pay for other city services, including more transit investment. I hope the city is tracking increases in sales tax revenue in the impact zone.

[HOT ROD]

i see it this way, where is the incremental sales tax dollars going to come from? Not downtown residents or office workers - since they ALREADY make up the base and this likely wont change either way with the streetcar. Nope, the incremental sales tax dollars will increase due to tourists and residents from outside of the core since downtown is an attraction in itself and has amenities and services not found elsewhere.

So why would we make it more difficult for them to get around after they drive here. Be honest, driving to downtown is the ONLY option at the moment. Until this changes and other modes come on where commuters are transit captive to downtown in mass to justify fare collections, the streetcar and downtown bus routes should be free or we should have a downtown ride free area. This would allow for the transit system as a whole to be used downtown which will increase demand for it outside of downtown as the transit base builds. Also we wouldn't be playing favorites with the streetcar since downtown transit would be free.

I am not an advocate of the entire bus system to be free since that exists and has a base. But downtown should be at least until other modes come on.

I will advocate this position to the mayor, ACOG, city govt leadership and EMBARK.

[TheSteveHunt]

My plan to shakedown Bezos to contribute to funding transit so his workers can get to their jobs will help a lot.

[dankrutka]

Cars are not the only way to get downtown. I take Amtrak from Texas.

Apparently, the streetcars were just stuck in traffic and the times didn’t update on the screens, thus people were just standing in freezing temperatures based on inaccurate times. Lackmeyer was pretty mad and tweeted such.

[midtownokcer]

Cars are not the only way to get downtown. I take Amtrak from Texas.

Apparently, the streetcars were just stuck in traffic and the Times didn’t update, thus people were just standing in freezing temperatures based on inaccurate times. Lackmeyer was pretty mad and tweeted such.

Steve has been a bit ridiculous lately on many fronts, but this takes the cake. Calling the streetcar a "complete joke" after just 2 weeks of service on what has to be the busiest night of the year in DTOKC is melodramatic.

[Urban Pioneer]

He can’t have it both ways... take Maps Staff’s word that Signal Priority issues need to be studied further and then complain when the train predictor is completely screwed up because the intersections are clogged due to red lights functioning in a “dumb” manner.

[OKCbyTRANSFER]

On Facebook, someone is posting updates and service alerts concerning street car activity, at least they are trying to get the word out to the ridership.

[Bellaboo]

Steve has been a bit ridiculous lately on many fronts, but this takes the cake. Calling the streetcar a "complete joke" after just 2 weeks of service on what has to be the busiest night of the year in DTOKC is melodramatic.

Rode for first time yesterday. The car was only 3 minutes late the first time we got on. Jumped off for a bite to eat and the second time it was right on time.
Thought it was very cool. Also, there are a few stretches where it moves pretty fast. When the street signals get coordinated, it'll be more than a tourist ride.
Lackmeyer just after attention. It's been years since i've viewed his chats -

[BBatesokc]

Steve has been a bit ridiculous lately on many fronts, but this takes the cake. Calling the streetcar a "complete joke" after just 2 weeks of service on what has to be the busiest night of the year in DTOKC is melodramatic.

But his complaint actually is true many other times/days too. The posted estimated arrival times are a complete joke and currently only serve to aggravate riders. I'd rather not even seen an ETA if it's going to be consistently completely wrong.

[soonerguru]

It may have already been said but if Uber can do it, so should the streetcar system. Keep up the commentary and I'll bet they get it before too long

Even Uber and Lyft ETAs are often wrong. They self-update in real time. I'm sure it can be done better but the traffic signals and overabundance of traffic obviously contributed to last night's mess.

I didn't even go downtown last night but I imagine there were close to 100,000 people there or more, as is the norm on NYE and virtually no other night of the year.

I can't even think of a transit system of any kind that wouldn't be overloaded in such a situation. I've been in NYC when train after train was overcrowded and I had to wait on special occasions, such as parades, etc.

In those cases, even hailing a cab is near impossible and I've found myself walking several blocks to be able to get a cab.

It's the height of absurdity to ridicule the system based on the incredibly uncommon circumstances that occurred last night: major downtown traffic, Thunder game, et. al.

I can understand people's frustration looking at the projected arrival times and have them be grossly inaccurate, though, but as UP said, those times do not account for additional traffic and slow signals.

[soonerguru]

Regarding the free service, why not have "transit month" and allow free service for both buses and streetcars? How much revenue does the city even make off of bus fares?

Another option is to simply offer free bus service within certain zones during "transit month." So, even if one were riding from outside the fare-free zone, they would still benefit from rides originating in downtown for the return trip.

Just some ideas. Clearly I'm not a transit official.

Another option: just sell an annual corporate sponsorship for $1 million or so. Wouldn't that cover the "lost" fares? Coupled with in-car advertising and advertising at stops, the streetcar could probably generate $1.5 million to $2 million in annual advertising, including the primary sponsorship.

Drama with wait times aside, the streetcar has already exceeded ridership expectations. Now, with the decision to suddenly introduce fares, the city is effectively stepping on the momentum generated by this impressive rollout before it has even begun to hit its peak. My daughter and her friends have still not been downtown to ride the streetcar yet, and they are people who would be regular riders. I know that is purely anecdotal, but the number of people who have ridden so far is dwarfed by the numbers of people who plan to ride it.

It is ridiculously short sighted of the city to blunt this momentum so soon.

Density in the core will only grow, a lot of which is the direct result of the investment the citizens made in the streetcar. As density increases, so will ridership. The streetcar is a magnificent mode of development for small business to thrive within the downtown core, and hopefully the citizens see the value in expanding it.

[LocoAko]

Finally rode it around the entire route on a weekday when there was little/no traffic. Not a novel take by any means, and I'm probably beating a dead horse but man, the street lights REALLY need to be prioritized for the system. The entire route took 45 minutes when it really felt like it could have taken maybe 30 if the lights were all green. Also some minor issues still with the announcements ("Arriving at..." after we'd been sitting there, "Watch for the closing doors" with the doors shut, etc.) but overall pretty okay. I really hope the advocates are successful in their efforts to get that done. It would seem to be a grave mistake not to.

[aDark]

Did anyone else catch the heated Twitter exchange between Lackmeyer and Mayor Holt on NYE? Shots fired re the Streetcar delays on NYE post-Thunder game: