Streetcar

[BBatesokc]

I've hoped on the StreetCar several times now. The start/stop is convenient enough for me because the Transit Center platform is right outside my office. However, three times now I've had to call EMBARK on the same homeless guy who sets up camp under the platform shelter and randomly starts screaming at people passing by or wanting to get on/off the streetcar. I had to call again yesterday (around 10am). It was over an hour before someone showed up and got the homeless man to clear away all his belongings and leave the immediate area. While this will probably be an ongoing issue at different platforms, if response times can be a bit quicker, the activity will probably mostly be discouraged.

Regardless.... For my needs, the streetcar simply continues to prove to be an oddity that doesn't actually improve any of my efforts regarding getting around downtown OKC.

By the time I wait for a Streetcar to arrive and ride it's painfully slow stop and go pace - then reboard and either ride basically the entire route back to my original platform, or get off and hoof it 3-5+ blocks back to the office, it just adds way more time and accomplished nothing. Literally, there is no way a group of us from work could ride the streetcar ANYWHERE to eat and be back within an hour. However, we could simply walk or take our car and do it much much quicker (and saved the $10 it would cost 5 of us to go and return in fares alone).

Beyond lunch, my other regular activities include going to either the Main YMCA on 4th street, the Main Street Y, the courthouse, the police station, the jail and to visit my wife at her office for lunch. Same problem..... Using the streetcar would take far longer and require me to walk further than if I simply drove my car and parked. If the weather is nice I'm going to walk or scooter and that's still going to be faster (cheaper if I walk, a bit more expensive if I scooter).

Curious what others who work downtown think as far as utilizing the Streetcar for getting around on a daily basis?

For me, it's just something I do if I have time to kill and it's new.

Not trying to be a downer, just trying to understand it's intended purpose and for whom. Maybe it's like Bricktown. I love that we have it. It serves a intended audience well. I get that I helped pay for it. But I don't ever utilize it and intentionally avoid it. Maybe the streetcar is just my Bricktown.

[Urban Pioneer]

If there are multiple streetcars on the circular, it is necessary to maintain a schedule and spacing so the cars don't bunch up because one got held up for one reason or another. The light rail here in Denver has to do this frequently to maintain the spacing. This can include stopping momentarily between stations or longer stops at stations.

That is correct. We have a "real-time" map in our Control Center that dispatch uses as their Positive Train Control. The same system (US Fleet Tracking transponders) is what generates the estimated arrival times. If one streetcar is being slowed or accelerated, dispatch will instruct operators to dwell at certain locations... particularly "end-of-line" stops on the extremities being Dewey / 11th and Scissortail Park stops. These locations are designed as dwell zones as stopping is in an isolated lane and does not affect automobile traffic. It is at these locations that we exchange operators, bathroom breaks, etc. Scissortail is also where we can take on additional battery charge if needed.

I am working pretty aggressively on getting the remaining funding for additional Signal Priority equipment. This equipment will not only help increase timeliness, but it will help us ensure that the live displays on the pylons project more accurate arrival estimate information. It is pretty awesome to see the system so broadly embraced by the public.

[Mott]

Everything was done well, but as of now it’s the worlds largest Christmas tree train set, going around in a circle.
Could a flange lubricator be installed on the trucks, like the BNSF uses on locomotives? A spring loaded stick that lubes the flanges and could help reduce profiling the worn flanges on a wheel lathe.

[hoya]

I am cautiously optimistic about the streetcar, and I really think it has been implemented as well as it could be here. I've ridden it about half a dozen times now, and will probably buy a monthly pass in January so I can see how it operates once it's no longer free.

That said, I do have some concerns. As others have said, it's still too slow for me to really use during lunch, unless I just happen to catch one right at Leadership Square. If I can get one within a couple of minutes, then it's faster to take the streetcar to Bricktown than it is to walk. But otherwise I'm spending more time just to ride it. I'm hoping that signal prioritization (super-duper important) and a little more practice will make the system faster.

I also have a parking spot in a garage right in the center of the streetcar route. I thought it would be great, because I can park and then hop on the train to go to my destination. But actually what it means is that it's not all that far of a walk to get to most places on the route, and for the places that are too far to quickly walk, I can usually find parking closer to my destination. Now, if I want to go to Bricktown on a Thunder game night, when the Bass Pro lot is crammed full, then I may think the streetcar is a godsend. I haven't used it for that yet. But I'm not sure I'll end up using it quite as much as I originally thought. And a lot of that is due to the convenience of already having a parking pass downtown. If I had to park in the big Toby Keith/movie theater lot whenever I came downtown that would be different.

Right now, I would call it "situationally useful" for me. It can be convenient, if I'm going to the right place at the right time.

I'll be really curious to see how the streetcar is being used in 6 months, and then in 5 years. Six months is enough time for the kinks to be worked out and for downtown workers to have integrated it into their routine. If it's still being used by a moderate amount of people, I'll consider it a success. Five years is enough time for new development to spring up along the route. Maybe some parking lots will fill in, increasing density and making the streetcar itself more valuable.

--

Two suggestions. One, I think an app on your phone or a website showing the location of each streetcar downtown would be incredibly helpful. Or at least allow people to see the arrival times of the next streetcar at each stop. I can take my lunch whenever I feel like it. If it's 11:47 and I'm getting ready to go eat, it will help me a lot if I can see when the next train arrives at the stop down the street. If it's going to arrive at 12:05, then I can get up from my desk in about 10 minutes and make it there with a couple minutes to spare. If it's arriving at 11:53, I need to go to lunch now. Same thing when I'm at the restaurant. Say it's cold outside and I'm a nice comfy booth at Abuelo's. I've already paid, and I'm finishing off some queso and they've already brought me my to-go drink. I can leave at any time. But I don't want to wait outside for very long. If I know when to time my exit, it will be much more convenient for me. And I think that convenience will really increase ridership.

Second, I think this system will really benefit from expansion into nearby areas. The faster we expand it the better, honestly. Any expansion we make should be a double track system that covers more distance and has less frequent stops. Right now it appears to be a tourist and downtown visitor circulator, and it's often faster to walk since it loops around on itself. But if it can travel a good distance from downtown at speed, then it really gives you the ability to leave your car behind.

[Midtowner]

This question may be for a completely separate thread, but when will DT OKC start seeing more retailers such as H&M, CVS/Walgreens, Apple/Best Buy, Coach/Burberry/other hi-end stores, Nike/UA/Adidas, or something like department stores? Are the urban gallerias still viable entities? Is DT OKC still not there in terms of residents to support such shopping outlets? To me it seems with the streetcar we could definitely see a return of some big retailers to the DT core.

I don't think we're all that far away from seeing some of that. Some might not be sold on the idea of high end retailers coming downtown, but right now, I'm guessing by the fact that we have a consignment handbags shop in the Robinson Rennaisance, that retail space is relatively inexpensive.

If the foot traffic stays up and the redevelopment of First National happens along with the Omni, I could see retail becoming a strong presence downtown. We'd be much better set up for it than places like KC's Riverside District, which doesn't have a streetcar, but does have a very strong retail presence.

[BBatesokc]

Has anyone put out a Streetcar route map that has all the food and shopping options along the route clearly marked?

This seems like marketing 101 to me, but I can't find one anywhere.

[Anonymous.]

I know the streetcar is still free for another couple weeks. But has anyone else downloaded the Embark app and associated fare app, Token Transit?

Honestly the Embark app is really bad. It is basically pointless for the Streetcar and doesn't even have a map of the route. It has a map of the bus routes that is difficult to find and the only streetcar related information existing on the app is the run-time schedule.

The Token Transit app is actually really easy to use. But has no information about the streetcar specifically. It just simply makes it really easy to buy and present your fare.

I have already voiced my concern about not having the streetcar be free for an extended period of time (even indefinitely). But this app situation could be a total nightmare. Like others have pointed out, we need a dedicated app to purchase the fare and also see a live GPS view of the streetcars. Basically the Uber or Lyft app is what is needed.

I fear for the success of this entire project because we will soon go from virtually 0 entry barriers (free, no risk) to multiple barriers (cost, poor reliance, poor app interface).

And if the mobile app experience is going to be this bad, just imagine the kiosk situation. I don't know about anyone else, but since it is free right now - I haven't even looked @ the kiosks to know what they do other than display X Minutes until arrival. Creating annoying problems that can be solved by copying an existing app model is a recipe for getting people to look elsewhere. I can order a Lyft or Uber in about 30 seconds and see exactly where and when my driver is arriving. People will avoid the streetcar if they cannot get a similar experience.

[shawnw]

As a frequent bus rider the Embark app is useless. I use TransitApp and Token Transit for the fares of course. I actually haven't tried to use TransitApp for the streetcars yet but presume it would work for those as well as it does for buses.

Incidentally, having used transit in many cities, I have never had an "Uber like app experience" with anyone else's transit system/app. You get their mobile fare app to buy passes. You use something like TransitApp. All is well...

[PaddyShack]

I know the streetcar is still free for another couple weeks. But has anyone else downloaded the Embark app and associated fare app, Token Transit?

Honestly the Embark app is really bad. It is basically pointless for the Streetcar and doesn't even have a map of the route. It has a map of the bus routes that is difficult to find and the only streetcar related information existing on the app is the run-time schedule.

The Token Transit app is actually really easy to use. But has no information about the streetcar specifically. It just simply makes it really easy to buy and present your fare.

I have already voiced my concern about not having the streetcar be free for an extended period of time (even indefinitely). But this app situation could be a total nightmare. Like others have pointed out, we need a dedicated app to purchase the fare and also see a live GPS view of the streetcars. Basically the Uber or Lyft app is what is needed.

I fear for the success of this entire project because we will soon go from virtually 0 entry barriers (free, no risk) to multiple barriers (cost, poor reliance, poor app interface).

And if the mobile app experience is going to be this bad, just imagine the kiosk situation. I don't know about anyone else, but since it is free right now - I haven't even looked @ the kiosks to know what they do other than display X Minutes until arrival. Creating annoying problems that can be solved by copying an existing app model is a recipe for getting people to look elsewhere. I can order a Lyft or Uber in about 30 seconds and see exactly where and when my driver is arriving. People will avoid the streetcar if they cannot get a similar experience.

The ticket kiosks that have been installed all seem to be under an orange cover with some stops still not having one installed yet.

[Richard at Remax]

I echo comments about a real time app showing locations. I used the one in Vail a few years back and it was awesome. Maybe not a big deal to wait when it's warm, but when it's cold and you have kids it can be a bit trying.

[BBatesokc]

I echo comments about a real time app showing locations. I used the one in Vail a few years back and it was awesome. Maybe not a big deal to wait when it's warm, but when it's cold and you have kids it can be a bit trying.

Agreed - plus, with Uber having this ability, they've set the bar and proven it's possible.

I'd love to walk out of a Bricktown restaurant/movie/etc., be able to look at the Streetcar app and go "Hey, we've got 15 minutes, lets grab a fresh coffee as we head to the platform." Or, "Lets not all head out of the warm office yet to grab a streetcar for lunch until the car is closer."

[shawnw]

Uber is a multi-billion dollar entity with the resources to put out a top notch app like that. Most transit entities have limited development budgets and probably rely on partnering with existing apps and rebranding.

[baralheia]

Uber is a multi-billion dollar entity with the resources to put out a top notch app like that. Most transit entities have limited development budgets and probably rely on partnering with existing apps and rebranding.

Embark does already have real-time data for their busses. While they don't show a real-time map of the exact location of every bus, their system does have the ability to calculate wait time (including any delays) for any given bus stop. This is available both on Embark's website and on Google Maps. We also know that Embark has this data for the Streetcar as well, but aside from being displayed on the streetcar kiosks, that data doesn't appear to be available anywhere publicly... yet. I'm positive it's coming, it just hasn't gone live yet.

[BBatesokc]

Uber is a multi-billion dollar entity with the resources to put out a top notch app like that. Most transit entities have limited development budgets and probably rely on partnering with existing apps and rebranding.

We're talking GPS, not rocket science (wait.... never mind) - something that's been around a long time and I can buy over the counter for next to nothing. It's in all of our phones. Oh yeah, and it's already been confirmed the street cars utilize fleet tracking currently. SO, your point is moot.

[catch22]

I wonder if it is a security issue having a GPS map of mass transit trains?

[hoya]

I wonder if it is a security issue having a GPS map of mass transit trains?

I sincerely doubt it.

[PaddyShack]

So why are we wanting a GPS map of the trains? I have honestly never seen this used anywhere. Vienna, London, Paris, Barcelona, NYC, etc. It is always just a time until next train/streetcar arrives.

[hoya]

So why are we wanting a GPS map of the trains? I have honestly never seen this used anywhere. Vienna, London, Paris, Barcelona, NYC, etc. It is always just a time until next train/streetcar arrives.

Because it's possible, and being able to tell when the next streetcar will arrive can help me plan how to use it. Particularly if I don't have to wait at a terminal to do it. If I can check where the cars are, I can decide which stop to walk to.

[dankrutka]

I echo comments about a real time app showing locations.

Can't Google Maps do this? I use it for buses in Denton and I can literally watch the bus roll up on the app to the minute. It shows me whether the bus is running early, on time, or late. It's all super easy.

[dankrutka]

So why are we wanting a GPS map of the trains? I have honestly never seen this used anywhere. Vienna, London, Paris, Barcelona, NYC, etc. It is always just a time until next train/streetcar arrives.

Commuter trains, subways, and other non-street metros run on more regular schedules than buses or streetcars that run on streets with cars. It's completely reasonable to want real time updates for a streetcar.

[dankrutka]

I totally understand why people who work downtown do not see the streetcar as efficient. It's not super efficient and even with signal prioritization along the entire route, it still won't be. But that doesn't mean it's just a recreational option. It just may take time for benefits to be evident.

OKC's core is still built almost 100% around cars. It's easy to drive and park almost everywhere. Streetcars, bike lanes, sidewalks, and a denser core all can slowly shift the dependence in and convenience of cars. Over the next few years, OKC might see more developments on current parking lots and new businesses that provide fewer spots. All of sudden, parking becomes harder to find; the infrastructure and use of other transportations options expands; and more people start changing their lifestyle. While public transit isn't always efficient, it's cheap, frees you up to do other things, and connects you to your community in unique ways.

For example, I often ride the A-Train/DART from Denton into downtown Dallas. It takes between 75 and 90 minutes. The drive is usually 45 to 60 minutes. However, I work almost the entire train ride and parking in downtown Dallas is a somewhat expensive hassle. Parking has only become a hassle in the last 10 or so years as the population, density, and public transportation options have increased. So, in short, the streetcar allows OKC's core to change. Once it's connected to commuter rail then people living in Norman may travel to OKC in the exact same way I travel to Dallas. It doesn't happen in a day.

I've gone car-less in the last 6 months and I've found it liberating. If I moved to OKC tomorrow, I would choose to live near a streetcar stop and use it as part of my everyday transportation options along with my bike, walking, buses, and Lyft. The savings from not owning a car a pretty great (e.g., no insurance, repairs, gas). I know I'm a pretty radical urbanist, but more people could choose to go car-less or car-optional (using the car on some days and not others). If you have a car and can park right next to your work then the streetcar is probably not a more efficient option for you... yet. Hopefully, it will be as OKC changes, but if it's an option for you, trying going car-less some day and see how it works.

[Zuplar]

I've been monitoring comments as I haven't had a chance to ride the streetcar, although I really want to before I have to pay, but the concerns from the individuals that work downtown are a lot of what I was concerned with previously. I'm sure some will remember I've been a doubter on this project, but at the same time since we are paying for it I want it to be a success. With that said I hope Urban Pioneer gets the signal prioritization done. From the sounds of it this is detrimental to speeding it up, which may solve some of these issues.

[catch22]

It’s funny to me that the success or lack of success is based on the 11am-1pm downtown worker lunch break range. Over the next decade the streetcar will spawn development which has residents, retail, restaurants, bars, and entertainment options. Some of this is already in place. The densification of downtown around the route will determine the success, not the office worker trying to go to fuzzy’s in bricktown for a $7 taco basket.

Downtown residents and visitors will determine the success of the streetcar, not the guy driving a BMW down from Edmond in to the Devon parking garage. Out of the 18 or so hours a day the streetcar is open, the only complaints I hear are from people not being able to use it at noon to go to lunch. That’s a small sample size and is not necessarily the ideal everyday use.

[Urban Pioneer]

Great comment.

[hoya]

I've got a question for UP. The streetcar has been incredibly busy so far. My assumption is that part of this is because it's a new toy, and because a lot of people are trying it out while it's free. Plus you've probably got a lot of people who are coming downtown for Christmas stuff and this is the one time of the year they come here.

But, what if it's not? What if six months from now, it's still this crowded? If it's necessary, what are the procedures for adding additional streetcars? We've got 7 right now, how do we go about getting an 8th, 9th, or 10th? Are there any sort of benchmarks that would cause the city to look at additional purchases? We've had a lot of comments on this thread about getting the kinks worked out, what if it's a smashing success?