Poll: Is the Civic Center doing a good job at bringing in musical acts

[BDP]

Is it actually large enough for the concerts that are being discussed?

At about 2500 capacity, it's bigger than the first two teaters I listed (Warfield, Wiltern) and about 600 smaller than the Beacon.

For comparison, the Met is 3800, the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion in LA is about 3100, as is the San Francisco Opera House.

[FritterGirl]

Hi all,

I hope to be able to shed some clarification here.

Before I took on my role with the Parks Department, I worked for 3 years with the Civic Center Foundation, a private, non-profit group in support of the Civic Center. We tried to start a new concert series, but found it logistically to be nearly impossible for a multitude of reasons.

The Civic Center Music Hall is booked more or less close to 300 days per year by its RESIDENT artist groups; namely, Celebrity Attractions, OKC Philharmonic (Pops and Classics), Lyric Theatre, Canterbury Choral Society and Ballet Oklahoma. What many don't realize is that some of these dates are rehearsal dates that are booked several days before a show opens.

Unlike touring companies, which are set up to "go" in any theatre at any time, these local groups are limited in their options to find premium rehearsal space, and opt to rehearse in the hall, if for no other reason, than it can greatly elevate their own performance level. For example, the Phil rehearses in the hall because no where else can duplicate the exact sound that you can find in the CCMH. It is, per national standards, a near-acoustically-perfect performing arts facility - on par with some of the best performance halls in the world. Why would a company want to go elsewhere when they can tune their show to be acoustically perfect in the hall in which they'll perform?

The downside to this is that these rehearsal dates take up POTENTIAL available touring dates.

There are other pertinent issues:
1. Many acts (esp. in summer) WANT a large arena-type show. The CCMH, with its 2,481 seats, was just TOO small for them, and they would rather play in a 2/3-empty Ford Center with the curtains drawn than in a more intimate venue which would make a better experience for the fan. The reason here is simple - money, folks. Promoters can put together a tour with a higher per-show guarantee ifi they book in an arena, and still charge a lesser ticket price per person because they can recover their costs in volume. Higher volume in many instances just means higher profit margins.

2. Let's face it, scheduling around tour dates is a b*tch. The planets have to be aligned just so in order to make it work. In our case, they had to be touring in our part of the country when we happened to have a date available. We attempted on many occasions to bring in top-name talent, and would get a preliminary hold on a date, only to have the tour "re-routed" on us where we could no longer accommodate that date, or the tour would decide to skip OKC altogether.

3. The upsurge in the number of casinos and the competitive market they are creating is proving near-disastrous. A casino can bring in an act such as a B.B. King, pay him "top dollar" (as opposed to a negotiated rate) then charge a minimal - or in some cases - no ticket price, because they know they will recoup those monies in liquor and gambling. Not so with the CCMH. If a promoter of a one-night musical act can break even without charging $80 or more for a ticket, they're doing really, really well.

Let's look at Jeff Foxworthy, for example. Last year, his asking price (artist guarantee) was $100,000. Assuming his tech rider and show cost (including "rental," box office fees, tech fees, union labor, etc.) was not more than $25,000 (that's a low-ball, folks), then the total show cost was $125,000. The promoter would have to sell out at a $50 ticket price TO BREAK EVEN. Even if they charged $75 per ticket (Seinfeld's ticket cost), they would only make approx. $40,000 that night, after expenses. If this same show were held at the Ford Center, where they could bring in 7,500 or more people at that same $50 ticket price...that's a quick $375,000 night!

5. Some acts proved to be simply cost-prohibitive, and the ticket prices required to fill the house were deemed out of the general market range for a CCMH show.

6. As for jazz and other similar shows, jazz has not EVER done well in OKC on a large-scale format. We've never been able to keep a jazz radio station alive, and jazz shows just don't do very well, except for those few break-through artists like a Diana Krall ($100k asking, plus show expenses) and/or Michael Buble (not sure how he did money-wise, but they sold out the hall in a few hours.

It is an EXPENSIVE business folks, and many acts and / or promoters do well to break even, much less make a profit. Even B.B. King the last time he was in the CCMH TOOK A LOSS (only around $7,000), but it was a loss nonetheless.

Until the market changes drastically (promoters and record companies decide it's all about the fan experience and not the gross amounts of money they can make), I'm afraid big shows at the CCMH will be fewer and farther between. And I agree, it really is a shame. We are in many ways, just the victim of progress.

Jennifer McClintock
Parks and Recreation

[BDP]

Well, that still leaves 65 days... just kidding.

Thanks so much for the post. i have to say that is one of the best posts on a topic I've ever read here. We need more resident experts. You make some great points, especially about the casinos, who can almost use a show as a "loss leader". I cerainly will not direct my ire regarding live entertainment options in OKC at the Civic Center again (although I will still secretly wish there were more pop, rock, etc. there just because it does sound so good. I actually think the few rock shows I have seen there sounded even better than the Philharmonic does sometimes).

Again, very good and relevant information. Given all the economic and competitive factors you listed above, do you personally think that there is room for another theater in Oklahoma City geared towards acommodating concerts in the 2-3k size range? I think we have a good enoug infrastructure to accomodate club and arena tours, but not so much for the theater circuit.

[jbrown84]

The Civic Center Music Hall is booked more or less close to 300 days per year by its RESIDENT artist groups;

I figured as much, which is why I kept saying that it seemed pretty booked up from my view.

Thanks, Jen, for weighing in on this and providing great info. I think we should be VERY glad that we have these resident companies that keep the place full. Many cities are not so lucky.

[FritterGirl]

I know the casino group in / near Shawnee is building a 4,000-seat performing arts space.

I also know that either Arts Council or Allied Arts conducted a study about three years ago regarding theatre ranges and sizes in the area. To be honest, I never saw the results of that, however, and so cannot comment on what those findings were.

[jbrown84]

Yeah, the casino's are bringing in some top names in music. Both Fire Lake Grand and Riverwind.

[zuluwarrior0760]

Parks Gal, great points, and an insider's track nonetheless.....

But the end result is world class acoustics and no dedicted concerts,
which is a real shame.....

I'd be curious to know how Don Henley justified an acoustic performance
there a few years back (it ended up cancelled due to illness), but as
I recall, tickets were a tick over 100.00 ea....

If we really do have 65 free dates a year, then they should try to give us
just 6 concerts a year (I DONT CARE WHO IT IS), but if they're an act
that the Civic Center could showcase in terms of acoustics, then they
could charge a premium ticket price and there might be people
who will be scared away, but I'm guessing with the proper promotion,
there would be at least 2500 who would come pay a premium for the
acoustics and the acoustics alone, which is ALL I care about in regards
to concerts at the Civic Center versus somewhere else.....

As an example, Alison Krauss is playing 1/3 of the Ford Center tomorrow night....
she's kind of a niche act, beautiful voice, bluegrass ensemble, grammy winner,
but not in the draw league of Martina McBride who will be playing the entire
Ford Center in July. It is well known that the floor of the Ford Center
sounds better than the upper sections, but even the floor is roughly 1/20th
the acoustic potential of the Civic Center for an act like hers.......

I just paid 125.00 per ticket on ebay to be on the floor, and if she had
been at the Civic Center, I would have paid as much as $300.00 and I'm not
alone......

so, I say give people a chance to say whether they'd pay 120.00
per ticket for a knockout acoustic concert at the Civic Center (pick your artist)....
That would be a 300k gross, which I'm sure would please just about any promoter....

I'm not saying the situation is ideal by any means, but a handful per year
is not a lot to expect. There were far more than that before the renovation,
and it didn't hold many more people then than it does now......

[FritterGirl]

Zulu,

A couple of more points to contend with.

#1. The day after "Wicked" moved out (Sunday night/Monday), another performance group moved in (Tuesday). In between that time, CCMH staff had to clean and reconfigure the stage requirements as set in place by another large Broadway production. These are very labor-intensive and time-consuming shows, especially to do two back-to-back, as is in this case. Lyric is in rehearsal now for its summer season, which starts next Tuesday with the Centennial performance of "Oklahoma!"

#2. Season shows usually book out - or at least hold their dates - a year to 2-years in advance. Even if the full season line-up is not solidified by each of the performance groups, the dates are still held in place, with season contracts signed, solidifying those dates.

As it stands, the bulk of the remaining dates to book shows at the CCMH are Sundays and/or Mondays - NOT your best concert-going nights, especially if you are charging a premium ticket price.

#3. Touring shows usually only book 45-90 dates out, which is why they can be so troublesome. It can be a marvelous boon to facilities which have openings, but to those that don't, it is unfortunately, a loss. Regardless, the management has to weigh whether 'tis better to: 1) bring in a "rehearsal" date that it KNOWS will bring in money to the organization, and/or 2) keep an open date in the remote possibility that a promoter may come a'callin'. In most cases, the guarantee of some income is better than the risk of no income at all.

#4. The City is no longer in the business of actual show promotion, simply because it is such a high-risk enterprise. While CCMH staff does work closely with a number of promoters locally and regionally to book touring acts, we'd rather the promoters themselves assume the financial risk than risk tax-payers' dollars on a $150-ticket, Monday-night-show, that may prove a loss to us. Promoters are smart (most of them). They know when and at what price they can risk their dollars.

The reality is at this point, in most cases, when a touring show comes a calling, the dates are simply not available because they are already booked by the season shows.

Please do not blame this on laziness or incompetence of the CCMH workers. If you were fully able to realize the amount of work they put in to manage and operate a hall of this quality on a piece-meal budget and paltry staff size when compared to other facilities of this size and scope, you would be in awe. They work wonders with very, very little. For the record, the CCMH is one of the last-remaining municipal-run performing arts facilities in the U.S..

I assure you there is no lack of attempt on the part of the CCMH. What venue wouldn't want to bring in a "guarantee" of dollars from an outside promoter. But, if a date is not available, it's simply not available.

[Easy180]

Well the heck with the Civic Center then...Sounds as if they are booked solid with money making artsy crap so I will move on to griping about other venues that allow quality musicians to continually bypass us

Just wish there actually were any other decent venues to gripe about

Just one of the few drawbacks to living in this city I guess...Maybe in time when we land an NBA team of our own a House of Blues type of place will come a calling

[bombermwc]

I'm all on ParksGal's side here. Zulu's "underutilized" comment just doesn't have a place with the Civic Center. It may not be showing the things you think should be there, but that doesn't make it "underutilized". As she said, it's book basically every day of every year....where are you going to squeeze in some concert like that?

And to make a point about the acoustics....they are meant for groups like the Phil, not a concert. The acoustics are meant for groups like that which don't use a lot of amplification in their events. A concert like you are talking about would bring in amps and speakers or use the house equipment, and then what's the point in the acoustics? The acoustics in your home stereo are not what they are going for. It IS a mainly classical venue...and no one has ever tried to say that it isn't. AND it is doing EXTREMELY well with that label and audience.

I'm not sure how many times I can say that just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not working well. We do have other venues in town that can host events like you are talking about, so why aren't they being booked there?

Maybe the new Oklahoma Oprey would be a good place for the type of event you are talking about....but not the CC. And BTW, acts chose to play the Ford Center, they aren't forced into it. Companies do their job to recruit acts there just as the CC does. Plus, I'd rather not have the folks at those concerts at the CC since they would probably tear it up.

[jbrown84]

It may not be showing the things you think should be there, but that doesn't make it "underutilized".

I basically said that, and I got accused of throwing flames.

[kmf563]

Well the heck with the Civic Center then...Sounds as if they are booked solid with money making artsy crap so I will move on to griping about other venues that allow quality musicians to continually bypass us

Just wish there actually were any other decent venues to gripe about

Just one of the few drawbacks to living in this city I guess...Maybe in time when we land an NBA team of our own a House of Blues type of place will come a calling

If you haven't noticed people in oklahoma city aren't very supportive of the music industry. THIS is the biggest problem with bringing shows here. Getting people to get involved is like pulling teeth. They would rather go to an open field country fest or butt rock fest and relive the past than support any kind of acoustic set or midsize show like you are speaking of. I have a feeling we could plop a House Of Blues right in the middle of OKC and give free parking and it still wouldn't sell out.

[Easy180]

If you haven't noticed people in oklahoma city aren't very supportive of the music industry. THIS is the biggest problem with bringing shows here. Getting people to get involved is like pulling teeth. They would rather go to an open field country fest or butt rock fest and relive the past than support any kind of acoustic set or midsize show like you are speaking of. I have a feeling we could plop a House Of Blues right in the middle of OKC and give free parking and it still wouldn't sell out.

Very true kmf...Only likely sellouts in an OKC HOB would be country (Kill me please) and like you said a freakin Bon Jovi type of concert

Oh well...I'm comfortable with being one of the few in this town with good musical taste

[kmf563]

Very true kmf...Only likely sellouts in an OKC HOB would be country (Kill me please) and like you said a freakin Bon Jovi type of concert

Oh well...I'm comfortable with being one of the few in this town with good musical taste

LOL. agreed. Although....I love my Bon Jovi. They are my secret guilty pleasure. However...I would much rather see an acoustic Jon and Richie show at a HOB than a full show at the Ford Center. I really don't like large arena shows.

I know what you mean though, I'm tired of my choices being some random country guy, some 70's person/big hair 80's name at the zoo, or a teenage hormone fest at the bricktown event center.

[CCOKC]

KMF, I would like to support local bands and go to concerts for good music. The problem is that I am 40 and don't go to clubs and such and don't know who the good bands are and where they are playing. I look at the gazette and that tells me where the bands are playing but I just don't know much about them. I voted yesterday for Aranda on the lollapolooza site because you asked me to but I did not know anything about them until yesterday. I also noticed that there were several bands from OKC on the list that looked pretty interesting. Maybe, just maybe, you could make a list weekly on the site to let us know who is worth seeing. I personally would like it and maybe other viewers would as well.

[kmf563]

KMF, I would like to support local bands and go to concerts for good music. The problem is that I am 40 and don't go to clubs and such and don't know who the good bands are and where they are playing. I look at the gazette and that tells me where the bands are playing but I just don't know much about them. I voted yesterday for Aranda on the lollapolooza site because you asked me to but I did not know anything about them until yesterday. I also noticed that there were several bands from OKC on the list that looked pretty interesting. Maybe, just maybe, you could make a list weekly on the site to let us know who is worth seeing. I personally would like it and maybe other viewers would as well.

well, thanks for voting!

The problem with making a list for you is that musical taste varies so much that what might be a good show to me may not be a good show for you. Most people are one tracked when it comes to music - they either listen to rock, country, or whatever the radio tells them to listen to. I guess I could make a weekly list with different genres of music?? Or maybe I could feature a different local band every week?? I'm going to start a new thread on this topic and see what the overall opinion is because I would be more than willing to do any of the above.

[FritterGirl]

You all have hit on another very important nuance regarding our market. Of our 19 "major" radio FM radio network stations in the metro, we really have an abysmal lack of programming variety.

Our 3 primary genres are:

Pop (includes CH/UrbanChUrban (KJ103 and Wild FM); Adult Alt (KYIS); Soft Pop (Magic 104)

Rock (includes Classic Rock (KRXO 107.7 and KQOB 96.9); Album Rock (KATT); New Rock (The Buzz)

Country (includes KXXY / KTST / KKNG) - and this is a REDUCTION of country stations. At one point, we had 5.

Outside of that, we have a smattering of other genres including Oldies, NPR, Classical and News/Talk. We also have a sports talk station that dominates the ratings for the male 24-54 demo, especially between August and April. With this lack of variety and agriegious lack of support for up and coming artists, including local artists, there should be no wonder our concert avails are suffering greatly - at any venue.

Most of the concerts I have attended over the past 3 years have been out of state.

[OKC PATROL]

I'm all on ParksGal's side here. Zulu's "underutilized" comment just doesn't have a place with the Civic Center. It may not be showing the things you think should be there, but that doesn't make it "underutilized". As she said, it's book basically every day of every year....where are you going to squeeze in some concert like that?

And to make a point about the acoustics....they are meant for groups like the Phil, not a concert. The acoustics are meant for groups like that which don't use a lot of amplification in their events. A concert like you are talking about would bring in amps and speakers or use the house equipment, and then what's the point in the acoustics? The acoustics in your home stereo are not what they are going for. It IS a mainly classical venue...and no one has ever tried to say that it isn't. AND it is doing EXTREMELY well with that label and audience.

I'm not sure how many times I can say that just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not working well. We do have other venues in town that can host events like you are talking about, so why aren't they being booked there?

Maybe the new Oklahoma Oprey would be a good place for the type of event you are talking about....but not the CC. And BTW, acts chose to play the Ford Center, they aren't forced into it. Companies do their job to recruit acts there just as the CC does. Plus, I'd rather not have the folks at those concerts at the CC since they would probably tear it up.

I saw Seinfeld at the Civic Center. It was a great show. The acoustics are outstanding at the CC and should be given more credit. I could have heard a needle drop on stage. But I sat next to a person with a 'Bad Company' shirt with holes and mutiple stains. Many times the rich/Old in OKC/Nichols Hills/Heritage Hills will see Phil/Theatre/musical in another Country or New York. Many Civic patrons will find poorly dressed individuals. This is a real turn off to our upper class, who were more inclined to go to the CivicC when a formal dress code was enforced or just acknowledged out of respect for the artists and venue. They go to venues in big cities and see people wearing ties and fit in. They have abandoned the idea of going to the old Civ to see major cultural shows. The Rich give more support for culture with private 'money' which controls The City and The Civic Center. We need to cater to these people...... not trying to be weird or anything.

[BDP]

And to make a point about the acoustics....they are meant for groups like the Phil, not a concert. The acoustics are meant for groups like that which don't use a lot of amplification in their events. A concert like you are talking about would bring in amps and speakers or use the house equipment, and then what's the point in the acoustics? The acoustics in your home stereo are not what they are going for..

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. There is just as much influence by a room's acoustics with amplified sounds as there is with unamplified sounds. And many performances at the CCMH use amplification. The theaters I listed above became music venues because they were old theaters that were built with more consideration for acoustic than your typical convention space. There is a MUCH better chance for controlled acoustics, whether amplified or not, in a place like the Warfield, the Wiltern, the Beacon, and especially OKC's CCMH because they were built for performing arts with acoustics in mine. The Coco Cola and the Ford Ceneter NEVER considered acoustic in their design or build and it shows. If they did, they completely failed.

Again, I saw Coldplay at the CCMH and the Ford Center. It's obvious which one sounded better and that was a direct result of the acustical reinforcements and materials that were used when remodeling the CCMH. I have been to musicals, classical performances by the Philharmonic, Pops shows, and two fully amplified concerts (coldplay and natalie merchant) at the CCMH. I know it may pain some of the designers to hear it (though it probably wouldn't surprise them), but, without a doubt, the two amplified concerts sounded the best in that room. By contrast, Phantom of the Opera, sounded very flat and unexciting compared with the Curran in San Francisco and much of it was amplifed as well. I have been to Philharmonic shows that were also flat and jumbled, but that probably has a lot to do with where I was sitting. Ultimately, a lot of it has to do with the engineers, but there is nothing about the CCMH that is not acoustically compatible with fully amplified rock, jazz, or pop concerts.

And as far as your home stereo goes, I can guarantee you it would sound tons better if you simply applied some of the same sound reinforcement techniques to your living room as were used in the CCMH redesign. You'd probably actually get more bang for you buck doing that than "upgrading" your hardware. The point is that amplification in no way mitigates the need for acoustic reinforcement.

[Karried]

I saw Seinfeld at the Civic Center. It was a great show. The acoustics are outstanding at the CC and should be given more credit. I could have heard a needle drop on stage. But I sat next to a person with a 'Bad Company' shirt with holes and mutiple stains.

I think that attire was probably more suited to a Seinfield comedy show. If this person had shown up at a classical music performance wearing a stained t-shirt, I'm sure the hoity toity's would wrinkle their noses... but chances are, none of them were at the Seinfield show.

[flintysooner]

On the rare occasion we are able to attend a symphony event we enjoy dressing up. It feels right for some reason. The Civic Center was really something I enjoyed very much. But probably as much as anything it is because I seldom have the opportunity and that makes it more special for me.

[OKC PATROL]

I think that attire was probably more suited to a Seinfield comedy show. If this person had shown up at a classical music performance wearing a stained t-shirt, I'm sure the hoity toity's would wrinkle their noses... but chances are, none of them were at the Seinfield show.

I would agree Karried. But overall the attendees are not the country club types anymore, so no more wrinkled noses. Its not a knock, but the last Phil performances I have seen this year all had poor attire. Im not trying to be an elitist with my view. I just feel the City(CC) needs to have a more formal environment for its most uppity of events. Many get away with sweaters and ect.- I have done the same purely because i realized the environment had changed.
No more debs and no more really, rich people anymore. I could care less about these people- but they give the image/support we need for these particular events. I sometimes hang out with these crowds and it is always shame whenever I bring up the Civ(with pride) and everyone acknowledges the great job the City did- but many havent even been to see a show yet! - Its their loss to me. I like to get jazzed up....sometimes(dirty artist from yuppy family). But I do miss the emphasis of detail like it was 10- 20 years ago.

[Matt]

Again, I saw Coldplay at the CCMH and the Ford Center. It's obvious which one sounded better and that was a direct result of the acustical reinforcements and materials that were used when remodeling the CCMH.

I was at the Civic Center show and I didn't even bother with the Ford Center show a couple years later 'cause I knew it would pale in comparison to the Civic Center show.

I'd love it if more bands I was into would play the Civic Center. It sucks having to see a great band in crappy venue like the Ford Center or Coca-Cola Bricktown Events Center.

[FritterGirl]

I agree with those of you who say that an evening of the theatre should include people dressing up. The Civic Center used to regularly recommend (we certainly can't enforce) that people wear "church" attire.

Well, guess what?! So many churches now allow jeans, shorts, dockers, other casual wear, that this is now deemed appropriate in other once-dressy venues and events.

To me, this is a reflection of society as a whole. Gone are the days when you have do dress up to go to a lovely restaurant and see good live theatre.

On the flip side of that, I like to think this sense of "casuality" is, in fact, making the arts more accessible to people for whom it may not have been before. Those who perceived the arts as only for the rich or elite may now feel more comfortable going into the theatre because they don't have to dress"to the nines" for an evening of live classical music or a Broadway production. In the end, it's reaching the masses with fine arts performances that matters most.

If you still enjoy dressing up as I do, by all means, PLEASE do so. Perhaps this will influence those who choose not to engage in this behavior.

[Easy180]

I was at the Civic Center show and I didn't even bother with the Ford Center show a couple years later 'cause I knew it would pale in comparison to the Civic Center show.

I'd love it if more bands I was into would play the Civic Center. It sucks having to see a great band in crappy venue like the Ford Center or Coca-Cola Bricktown Events Center.

Don't doubt the civic center Coldplay concert was better, but I can tell you the followup in the Ford Center was also a great concert...Huge videoboard and light shows and the band actually looked like they wanted to be there...Don't always get that attitude in the major concerts here in Okie land