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Thread: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

  1. #676

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    My work usually books us on AA, and with the increased leisure options I might have to switch my meager miles to AA.

  2. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    So come February, AA will have:
    DFW 9x
    ORD 3x
    CLT 3x
    LAX 2x
    PHX 2x
    PHL 2x
    DCA 1x

    Is this correct, catch?

    If so, that's pretty dang impressive. Would think a 1x MIA and a 1x LGA could round things out and complete N/S service to all their hubs/focus cities.

  3. #678

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    CLT 2x ^ but yes very impressive schedule.

  4. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    I'm guessing AA's first in line to get at least one of the four new gates when the first phase of the east concourse opens.

  5. #680

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Here's the AA schedule for OKC for Feb 18, 2019. It does not appear to be final as a few turn times are unrealistic.

    Arrival time, city, equipment, departure time; relative to OKC. If there are two cities, it comes from one, and turns to the other. E.G. PHX-OKC-DFW
    ---- DFW S80 0510
    ---- ORD CR7 0540
    ---- PHX CR9 0555
    ---- PHL E75 0600
    ---- LAX E75 0620
    ---- DCA E75 0655
    ---- DFW 738 0700
    ---- CLT CR9 0705
    0801 DFW 319 0835
    0951 DFW S80 1032
    1025 PHL E75 1055
    1134 DFW S80 1219
    1150 ORD CR7 1220
    1250 CLT CR9 1325
    1344 DFW E75 1425
    1428 LAX E75 1505
    1517 DFW CR9 PHX 1550
    1522 ORD CR7 1600
    1623 PHX CR9 DFW 1653
    1731 DFW 738 1820
    1840 ORD CR7 ----
    1932 DFW S80 2020
    1955 CLT CR9 ----
    2020 DCA E75 ----
    2158 DFW 738 ----
    2258 PHX CR9 ----
    2320 PHL E75 ----
    2321 DFW S80 ----
    2345 LAX E75 ----

  6. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Interesting: Charleston SC is getting a seasonal British Airways non-stop to LHR, twice weekly. Looking at the data, it looks like Charleston's passenger numbers are nearly identical to OKC. Too bad we don't already have the expansion built.

    https://www.postandcourier.com/news/...9947a444b.html

  7. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brianinok View Post
    Interesting: Charleston SC is getting a seasonal British Airways non-stop to LHR, twice weekly. Looking at the data, it looks like Charleston's passenger numbers are nearly identical to OKC. Too bad we don't already have the expansion built.

    https://www.postandcourier.com/news/...9947a444b.html
    It's all about touristic draw with CHS, though. We might have similar numbers, but Charleston is a pretty big leisure destination in the southeast. And, as always, DFW is just so close...relatively speaking.

  8. #683

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Makes me wonder if OKC even tries for international flights...

  9. #684

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    Makes me wonder if OKC even tries for international flights...
    At the moment, probably not, considering we don't have the facilities to accept international flights right now.

  10. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrator View Post
    It's all about touristic draw with CHS, though. We might have similar numbers, but Charleston is a pretty big leisure destination in the southeast. And, as always, DFW is just so close...relatively speaking.
    OKC's passenger numbers are nearly identical. So, whatever their numbers are: leisure, business, manufacturing-- they add up to equal the same as OKC.

  11. #686

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    A couple things:

    1) Charleston is closer: less fuel; lower crew costs; less aircraft time = lower risk, lower break even.

    2) British Airways is targeting London point of sale traffic; as mentioned the US South is a tourist draw for Europeans.

    3) Passenger numbers may be similar, but passenger type is not. A leisure dominated route can thrive on 2x weekly, where OKC is a steadier mix of business and US POS leisure traffic. A flight twice a week would not be competitive enough for business traffic. If you have to be in London at 4pm tomorrow, you simply cannot wait 3-4 days for a nonstop flight. You will connect or drive to DFW.

    4) American Airlines and British Airways have a transatlantic metal neutral joint venture. This means that any flights between Europe and the United States on either American or BA are part of this joint venture. The airplanes are neutral, and the profit from each flight is divided up between the two carriers. In order for the AA/BA JV to launch OKC-LHR, they will have to make a decision to overfly 3 hubs (PHL,ORD,CLT) in order to do so, whereas Charleston really only overflies one (PHL). Airlines much rather you go to a hub, and in order for an airline to overfly a hub, they have to be very sure that the nonstop will command a fare premium. This means that people will pay more to not connect or drive to DFW. The OKC market has very poor evidence of people even paying a premium to fly nonstop from OKC to domestic markets, choosing to drive to DFW or connect for cheaper instead. Why would we assume people will suddenly pay more for this flight, versus connecting or driving; just as they do now?


  12. #687

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Well that should end that discussion. If you want to argue with catch it’s just cause you want to argue. He’s pretty much dead on there.

  13. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gopokes88 View Post
    Well that should end that discussion. If you want to argue with catch it’s just cause you want to argue. He’s pretty much dead on there.
    Yep, well put and illustrated!

  14. #689

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    A couple things:

    1) Charleston is closer: less fuel; lower crew costs; less aircraft time = lower risk, lower break even.

    2) British Airways is targeting London point of sale traffic; as mentioned the US South is a tourist draw for Europeans.

    3) Passenger numbers may be similar, but passenger type is not. A leisure dominated route can thrive on 2x weekly, where OKC is a steadier mix of business and US POS leisure traffic. A flight twice a week would not be competitive enough for business traffic. If you have to be in London at 4pm tomorrow, you simply cannot wait 3-4 days for a nonstop flight. You will connect or drive to DFW.

    4) American Airlines and British Airways have a transatlantic metal neutral joint venture. This means that any flights between Europe and the United States on either American or BA are part of this joint venture. The airplanes are neutral, and the profit from each flight is divided up between the two carriers. In order for the AA/BA JV to launch OKC-LHR, they will have to make a decision to overfly 3 hubs (PHL,ORD,CLT) in order to do so, whereas Charleston really only overflies one (PHL). Airlines much rather you go to a hub, and in order for an airline to overfly a hub, they have to be very sure that the nonstop will command a fare premium. This means that people will pay more to not connect or drive to DFW. The OKC market has very poor evidence of people even paying a premium to fly nonstop from OKC to domestic markets, choosing to drive to DFW or connect for cheaper instead. Why would we assume people will suddenly pay more for this flight, versus connecting or driving; just as they do now?

    Isn't perception reality? OKC will never be seen as big league without an international flight. It's the only NBA market without an international flight. Not saying we need 5, but a flight like this would put the US on notice. Just my opinion, and I respect all of the points you made.

  15. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    Isn't perception reality? OKC will never be seen as big league without an international flight. It's the only NBA market without an international flight. Not saying we need 5, but a flight like this would put the US on notice. Just my opinion, and I respect all of the points you made.
    MKE is one of the smallest NBA markets and it just has YYZ and a bunch of Mexico service, most of it leisure for those cold Wisconsin winters, but certainly we should strive for Canada and Mexico service, too. See, MKE suffers from market drain to ORD for long haul int'l service, just like us and DFW. Would Canada and Mexico flights count for you to be "big league?" I think those are within reach. NOLA, the smallest NBA market, has a huge touristic draw, so it's hard to compare us with them.

  16. #691

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrator View Post
    MKE is one of the smallest NBA markets and it just has YYZ and a bunch of Mexico service, most of it leisure for those cold Wisconsin winters, but certainly we should strive for Canada and Mexico service, too. See, MKE suffers from market drain to ORD for long haul int'l service, just like us and DFW. Would Canada and Mexico flights count for you to be "big league?" I think those are within reach. NOLA, the smallest NBA market, has a huge touristic draw, so it's hard to compare us with them.
    True. But I wasn't really fully looking at size. If OKC could get a flight to Mexico, that would be huge. Heck, Toronto may be doable. But I think OKC could support an international flight. But I get what you are saying.

  17. #692

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Wouldn't it be more valuable to the well being of the airport and the metro to be a hub versus international?

  18. #693

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Wouldn't it be more valuable to the well being of the airport and the metro to be a hub versus international?
    Maybe we can be a big Navy port too ?

    Seriously, the hub is a dying breed and to be realistic, there are not enough inhabitants in the whole state to justify one. Furthermore with a huge metropolis and world hub just 3 hours away, it would not make sense. But again OKC is just too small for a big airport.

    Enjoy the one here. It is very convenient and we are adding more direct flight so use them people !

  19. #694

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrator View Post
    MKE is one of the smallest NBA markets and it just has YYZ and a bunch of Mexico service, most of it leisure for those cold Wisconsin winters, but certainly we should strive for Canada and Mexico service, too. See, MKE suffers from market drain to ORD for long haul int'l service, just like us and DFW. Would Canada and Mexico flights count for you to be "big league?" I think those are within reach. NOLA, the smallest NBA market, has a huge touristic draw, so it's hard to compare us with them.
    MKE has double the passenger traffic that OKC has... January - August 2018, it was at 6.2 million. OKC, January - September, is 3.2 million.

  20. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by amocore View Post
    Maybe we can be a big Navy port too ?

    Seriously, the hub is a dying breed and to be realistic, there are not enough inhabitants in the whole state to justify one. Furthermore with a huge metropolis and world hub just 3 hours away, it would not make sense. But again OKC is just too small for a big airport.

    Enjoy the one here. It is very convenient and we are adding more direct flight so use them people !
    Well put and reasonable. A hub is likely out of the question for the near term, but hopes of starting out with int'l flights to Canada and Mexico are good and realistic goals for the time being. The dynamics of the business and of the area/state will also have to change dramatically for us to compete with DFW operationally. Might happen, but likely WAY, WAY down the line.

  21. Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LakeEffect View Post
    MKE has double the passenger traffic that OKC has... January - August 2018, it was at 6.2 million. OKC, January - September, is 3.2 million.
    Wow, that's interesting--and a bit surprising to me. Wisconsin population is 5.7 million where OK's is almost 4 million. Milwaukee metro has pop. of 1.5 million, OKC has 1.3 million. Perhaps just sheer people accounts for it and perhaps MKE has a bigger economy or at least more business flyers. That's a LOT more traffic though--big difference.

  22. #697

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Are all of these passenger counts commercial carriers only or does it factor in the private air travel in and out of OKC airports? It would be interesting to see how much private/charter passengers we have compared to other cities in our size range.

  23. #698

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Commercial only at Will Rogers.

  24. #699

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrator View Post
    Wow, that's interesting--and a bit surprising to me. Wisconsin population is 5.7 million where OK's is almost 4 million. Milwaukee metro has pop. of 1.5 million, OKC has 1.3 million. Perhaps just sheer people accounts for it and perhaps MKE has a bigger economy or at least more business flyers. That's a LOT more traffic though--big difference.
    Basically, Milwaukee is the only game in Wisconsin. OKC competes with Tulsa.

  25. #700

    Default Re: 2018 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    Basically, Milwaukee is the only game in Wisconsin. OKC competes with Tulsa.
    They also get a bunch of bleed over traffic from Chicago. You live in north Chicago it’s about the same to get to either

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