Lincoln Square

[jonny d]

I saw this in the DOK, but was not sure if it was being discussed (didn't see a thread about it).

https://newsok.com/article/5610852/p...ation-district

[Pete]

Those guys have been acquiring property in that area for some time.

They are all almost exclusively investor/brokers, not developers. They did something very similar for what is now Deep Deuce; assembled, rezoned and then sold off parcels to others who actually built almost everything that is there now.

It's great property; really well located and somewhat pretty. But good grief, what a massive barrier I-235 is. A colossal failure of urban planning that we will be trying to undo for decades and at huge expense.

[turnpup]

No kidding. I'm reminded of this every time I look at old photos of the city before the highway was put in.

[catch22]

Really, it's a strange property. The railyard and cement plant (?) to the south and southeast. I-235 to the west. Lincoln Blvd is such a wide street that pedestrian connections to other areas will be tough to foster, especially at 4th because of the highway off ramp also. Some creative bike/pedestrian paths could help to open it up, say by the railroad tracks under 235.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^
There’s actually a stub of Sheridan that the I-235 cloverleaf feeds onto which could provide access. There are some railroad tracks there to negotiate and it would no doubt be a bit weird. And of course an interstate off ramp feeding ont the westbound street is seriously off-putting. But there is some potential for access directly from Bricktown.

[Pete]

These are from their Planned Unit Development filing:

[SagerMichael]

This has major potential. Similar to Strawberry Fields out west. Downtown will be very different once those projects start to change each end of the city. Now, how realistic is this whole deal and what is the timeframe for something like this?

[Pete]

I think it's going to be long time before either Strawberry Fields or this development gets much momentum. Let alone the Coop.

Page Woodson (right next to Lincoln Square) still has 3-4 more phases to build out.

[baralheia]

I really like how their master plan takes into account and appears to preserve the Jewel Theater and the Morgan Building. This area certainly has potential and I'd love to see it happen if they can make it work!

[Ross MacLochness]

First and last time I'll bring this up... Tear down this portion of I235! Tis a distant dream.

[Plutonic Panda]

First and last time I'll bring this up... Tear down this portion of I235! Tis a distant dream.

Or you know a more reasonable approach could be made and it could be tunneled using a cut and cover technique and then capped. Win-win for everyone. But OkDOT should soon start looking at starting an alternatives analysis to determine the best way to reconnect neighborhoods. This is a vital link for the metro as a whole and I will be against anything that removes it.

[baralheia]

It's important to note here that the three streets that would interact with this proposal - NE 4th St, N Lincoln Blvd, and E Sheridan, all pass under I-235. While I agree that it does still pose a visual and psychological barrier, in practice I-235 doesn't present as much of a physical barrier as you might think. NE 4th St has full sidewalks on both sides of the street as they pass under 235, and both Lincoln and Sheridan could easily have them added. It'd even be trivial to add a pedestrian connection from the southwest corner of this proposal (where the hotel would be), under the highway along the railroad, to connect with Lincoln and the rest of Bricktown.

[UnFrSaKn]

Really glad they are restoring that old church. I “found” it years ago on my own back when they were tearing down the old hair salon with the Coke sign in the wall. This whole area is like lost in time.

[BLJR]

First and last time I'll bring this up... Tear down this portion of I235! Tis a distant dream.

Agreed, but right now we need I235 as an alternate to all the other infrastructure fails and other constructions going on.

[turnpup]

Really glad they are restoring that old church. I “found” it years ago on my own back when they were tearing down the old hair salon with the Coke sign in the wall. This whole area is like lost in time.

Hi Will! Good to "see" you. And congratulations!

[Pete]

[hoya]

This is enormous. It's basically the size of Bricktown, and it's almost completely empty. It's going to take a very long time to fill this up.

I doubt they're interested in doing this, but personally I think this area is perfect for affordable, for-sale workforce housing. I'm thinking townhomes and condos where the prices are kept under $200K. If the footprint of a building is too large, they could even sell townhouses where each floor was a separate unit.

It seems to me that if they targeted a somewhat lower price point than downtown, they could fill up the area significantly more quickly. We could use a "working class" downtown neighborhood.

[Pete]

We now have several enormous projects competing for development on the outskirts of downtown: Lincoln Square, Producer's Coop, Strawberry Fields and the Wheeler District.

We also have Core to Shore, the property surrounding AICCM, west of Myriad Gardens and south of Myriad Gardens. AND, ultimately, the current site of the Cox Center and tons more infill, especially in Midtown, Auto Alley and big chunks of Bricktown.

[stlokc]

I know I share this feeling with others and have mentioned as such before, my biggest worry about the core is exactly that: we have too much raw land fighting for development. OKC would have to grow at Austin levels for 20-30 years before all of this can be built densely to all of our satisfaction.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with the poster upthread regarding the less expensive, workforce housing in this Lincoln Square area. I honestly wouldn't mind if this were more of a traditional, single family neighborhood as opposed to the live/work/innovation ideas proposed. My caveat would be that it be built with some urban principles: for example alleys and back facing garages as opposed to front driveways, commercial nodes on the corners, etc. Sort of a less expensive version of Wheeler. I mean, we do need innovation/live/work/urban units but maybe those should cluster closer to the med center, GE area, I-235.

[Pete]

^

Remember that Page Woodson has income-limited housing and it was off to a slow start but now seems to be filling up.

[Ross MacLochness]

I know I share this feeling with others and have mentioned as such before, my biggest worry about the core is exactly that: we have too much raw land fighting for development. OKC would have to grow at Austin levels for 20-30 years before all of this can be built densely to all of our satisfaction.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with the poster upthread regarding the less expensive, workforce housing in this Lincoln Square area. I honestly wouldn't mind if this were more of a traditional, single family neighborhood as opposed to the live/work/innovation ideas proposed. My caveat would be that it be built with some urban principles: for example alleys and back facing garages as opposed to front driveways, commercial nodes on the corners, etc. Sort of a less expensive version of Wheeler. I mean, we do need innovation/live/work/urban units but maybe those should cluster closer to the med center, GE area, I-235.

Urbanism/live work play environments and single family/traditional don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[hoya]

I believe if they had a price point that was competitive with new construction suburban neighborhoods, they'd access a much larger number of potential buyers.

Someone looking at a 2000 sq foot house in Moore might also be interested in a 1200 sq foot condo downtown. There are a ton of people who would love to buy once you drop below that $500K+ price range. Everybody is trying to target the same extreme high end buyer, and I don't think we have enough of them.

[Pete]

I can assure you that these groups that are acquiring large, contiguous parcels near the core cannot turn around and develop affordably priced single-family homes.

They aren't even building affordable multi-family unless they receive a lot of government aid.

The land costs are just too high, or at least what they have been paying makes such type of development unfeasible.

[hoya]

I'm not talking about single family homes, I'm talking about high density development. According to the county assessor's page, most of these plots have been purchased for between 20-50K apiece. Now when you're talking about buying up 15 blocks, that's still a lot of money. But each individual piece of property is quite reasonable considering where this is located. The prices are nothing like you'd pay in Deep Deuce. Compare the prices they've paid for land with, let's say what was paid for land that The Frank is sitting on. Now that was a multi-parcel deal, and I don't know what else was included, but the last sale price was almost $700,000. You could get the same amount of land in this area for less than half that, probably closer to a third or a fourth.

They can certainly target a lower price point. Now I understand they're going to want to make as much money as possible -- they aren't doing all this for free. But it seems to me that there's a significant cost to just sitting on the land, and with as many competing areas that are all trying to chase the same demographic, it might be 25 years before this area is full.

[Pete]

^

But the average cost per acre is going to be very high. They only have about 60% of that area and everything else is going to be expensive.

And it takes years and even decades to do this sort of large-scale acquisition.

These are private developers looking to make a profit which is why they are willing to buy and hold for years and years while they slowly assemble the properties.


The only way we are going to get affordable housing in the core is with a ton of government subsidy.