Stadium District (formerly Producers Coop)

[yukong]

Ah, OK, my bad, I didn't do my research, did not know that the contamination went all the way back more than 100 years and was oil/gas well related. Kind of makes sense now, but presumably someone more intimately involved with the site knew all that, even if I didn't, and they should've planned for the worst, not planned for best-case (or even middling-case) scenarios. I'm a sys admin, and I was taught to always plan for all possible outcomes/inputs when coding things, always assume someone will do the worst thing they can do and prevent them from doing it, thought other industries did the same, but maybe not.

There is no argument that the longtime co-op owners could have known more. But then, they are now paying for not being more proactive. I will also say that it is fairly common knowledge that the whole lower downtown area, to the river, was historically oil fields and refineries. From east I-35 at the fort smith junction, all the way past the farmers market. The area north of Reno out by I-35 is an old superfund site. The area along Reno at Lottie was contaminated by heavy metals. Don Karchmer spent a ton cleaning it up. (He didnÂ’t own it when it was a metal site.). I would suspect that the Strawberry Fields project will require remediation. The park next door did. The main problem is as I said...a 100 years ago, no one thought about the long term consequences of dumping sludge and byproduct in pits and burying them. There are some old sludge pits out south of Reno east along I-40. Been there decades. Then if you want to talk about other contaminants...back in the 40s-70s there were dry cleaners all over OKC. Most of those sites are contaminated. Some extremely bad. And those contaminates cause cancer. Vapor degreasers. TCE and PCE. Those are also found around mechanic shops and airports. The old Gulfstream site is one such. Bethany is suing Gulfstream in federal court on that one. There is an old cleaners building in a strip mall that cannot be used except for storage because the vapor intrusion of PCE is too high for people to work there even a few hours a day. Many of these cleaners are in residential areas. But again...no one knew what those chemicals would do. We have only learned in recent years how dangerous these contaminates are. The Eagle Industries site is another. It will most likely be a superfund site. Tinker is a superfund site. Mostly PCE. We are learning more every day. But no one knows for sure how extensive sites are until you start testing. The Co-op was one such site.

[HOT ROD]

Just think if somehow we could have cleared this land and put the American Indian Cultural Center there and an "indian village" type of master plan. ...

We can do the exact same at the current site (and I hope we do) but just imagine if it were here, so close to downtown. ..

But yes, I agree better to wait and get the right master plan while the rest of downtown densifies than to start yet another district while existing ones are still not fully developed.

[jonny d]

Considering it will be nearly impossible and pretty expensive to remove those railroad easements (because they never cooperate, and only care about money) it might be a long time before anything happens here.

[bombermwc]

a well placed bag of tnt might take care of those rail lines...muahahaha.

[citywokchinesefood]

a well placed bag of tnt might take care of those rail lines...muahahaha.

A dedicated group of speedfreaks given the green light would clean it up mostly in a single night.

[Pete]

The rail lines are already gone... It's the remaining easements that are the issue.

[jedicurt]

The rail lines are already gone... It's the remaining easements that are the issue.

and let me guess... rail line easements are not able to be purchased through eminent domain process, even though that is probably how the railway got the easements in the first place?

[Pete]

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

[jedicurt]

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

while i agree... there are many city and state governments who disagree with that limit on land use and have done so regardless.

[Pete]

while i agree... there are many city and state governments who disagree with that limit on land use and have done so regardless.

Courts have frowned on this. The practice generally does not hold up if prosecuted.

[baralheia]

n/m; didn't read entire thread before replying

[hoya]

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

So now we know the path for the canal extension.

[shawnw]

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

IMO the city should proceed with an eminent domain case just to get what's surely to be an arduous process out of the way, and then put the easements in OCURA hands for now (e.g. not private). The private developer (of the coop site) will still need that land presumably, but OCURA can then leverage any handing off of that land, whether by RFP or whatever, based on the site plan of that development...

[Geographer]

Under certain circumstances, it IS legal to use eminent domain for the purpose of economic development - check the Supreme Court ruling on Kelo v New London.

"The majority held that the city's taking of private property to sell for private development qualified as a "public use" within the meaning of the takings clause. The city was not taking the land simply to benefit a certain group of private individuals, but was following an economic development plan."

[chuck5815]

Under certain circumstances, it IS legal to use eminent domain for the purpose of economic development - check the Supreme Court ruling on Kelo v New London.

"The majority held that the city's taking of private property to sell for private development qualified as a "public use" within the meaning of the takings clause. The city was not taking the land simply to benefit a certain group of private individuals, but was following an economic development plan."

I don't believe Kelo would control in Oklahoma. It was always an interesting decision, but most states have either judicially or legislatively taken measures that would make it difficult, if not impossible, for a developer to take private property for a private use (See, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.3c6624056a79).

Oil and Gas development is an obvious exception to the above rule. But there are many wells that would never get drilled without the assistance of the OCC, Texas Railroad Commission, etc.

[mugofbeer]

Courts have frowned on this. The practice generally does not hold up if prosecuted.

I wonder about how the court would feel if the RR can't produce any examples of practical uses for the right of way yet doesn't want to give it up for a better use.

[Plutonic Panda]

So now we know the path for the canal extension.

That is exactly what I thought. The city could take it and build a canal, streetcar corridor or street?

[yukong]

That is exactly what I thought. The city could take it and build a canal, streetcar corridor or street?

The city, even through eminent domain, would have to pay an extraordinarily high amount of money for the RR ROW. Railroads are so highly protected by federal law. They would remove the case to federal court...and the city would not get any reasonable relief. Railroads are near impossible with which to deal.

[bombermwc]

Interestingly enough, Midwest City's Town Center is a perfect example of how the public/private partnership can use eminent domain, lose the court case, but still win. The Midwest City Memorial Hospital Authority purchased up the land on 29th street as a non-profit. They did this from the money they received in leasing off Midwest City Regional Hospital (formerly Midwest City Memorial Hospital, now known as Alliance Midwest). They then had Sooner Investments develop the land.

Problem is, a few residents decided to fight the eminent domain declaration. While they did lose their homes and got only the market value for them, the court did finally decide (after the project had finished dozing all they needed to and had developed 3/4 of the property already) that the partnership was wrong and that it was an improper use of eminent domain. So they got a payoff.

But who really won there? The city did have to pay the residents in the case, but they also got a cash cow of tax revenue in the Town Center. So even though the city was shown to be in error, looks to me like they still won in the end.

[Geographer]

I don't believe Kelo would control in Oklahoma. It was always an interesting decision, but most states have either judicially or legislatively taken measures that would make it difficult, if not impossible, for a developer to take private property for a private use (See, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.3c6624056a79).

Oil and Gas development is an obvious exception to the above rule. But there are many wells that would never get drilled without the assistance of the OCC, Texas Railroad Commission, etc.

I agree that it would be nearly impossible for a private developer to try to use eminent domain for a private development....but I believe if its a City, Economic Development Authority, or especially the obscurely powerful OCURA, I believe they could use eminent domain on the property under the auspices of cleaning up the property for the public good and then turn around and sell it for private development.

[Pete]

[jonny d]

Hard to believe that railroad easements may prevent this project from ever getting off the ground. Kinda crazy how federal law protects them so much.

[Pete]

[skanaly]

Procrastinating on my finals, decided to mock up a future site plan for this area. Feel like this could be reasonable development??

[shawnw]

Driving by the other day I saw equipment actively doing things and a big dirt pile I didn't think was there before. I thought this site was stalled?