Norman asks BIRD to remove scooters.

[Jersey Boss]

http://www.oudaily.com/a_and_e/city-...0069f987d.html
Scooter rental company Bird has until 10 p.m. Wednesday to remove their scooters from Norman's rights-of-way, The Norman Transcript reports.
The Transcript reported that the city asked Bird to voluntarily remove the scooters last week and file the proper permits to operate legally in Norman.

[OUman]

I'm glad something's being done about this. I'm not against scooters or anything but you can't just leave these anywhere you'd like. People are leaving these on the sidewalks or whereever else they please.

[jedicurt]

I'm glad something's being done about this. I'm not against scooters or anything but you can't just leave these anywhere you'd like. People are leaving these on the sidewalks or whereever else they please.

they are also extremely dangerous on gameday... last week, i saw 3 different people either almost get ran over or almost run into a car, because they just went right through stop signs while on them. granted, i know this isn't Birds fault necessarily, but it is something that needs to have further discussions of how to prevent

[chuck5815]

they are also extremely dangerous on gameday... last week, i saw 3 different people either almost get ran over or almost run into a car, because they just went right through stop signs while on them. granted, i know this isn't Birds fault necessarily, but it is something that needs to have further discussions of how to prevent

Darwinism generally solves issues like that.

[Bunty]

I'm glad something's being done about this. I'm not against scooters or anything but you can't just leave these anywhere you'd like. People are leaving these on the sidewalks or whereever else they please.

Stillwater is leaving them alone for the time being, while figuring out how to change its code to deal with them. I usually see them parked on the edge of the sidewalk, like where I saw three of them neatly lined up by Chick-fil-A. I wouldn't want to ride one without a crash helmet. I think safety issues while riding them are more serious.

So they got impounded: http://www.oudaily.com/a_and_e/norma...d94f279be.html

[OUman]

they are also extremely dangerous on gameday... last week, i saw 3 different people either almost get ran over or almost run into a car, because they just went right through stop signs while on them. granted, i know this isn't Birds fault necessarily, but it is something that needs to have further discussions of how to prevent

People who are blowing through stop signs are obviously at fault, if you ride on a public street all traffic laws apply to you as well. Whenever I ride my bike on the road (even if I'm riding on the sidewalk) I stop at all stop signs and give appropriate hand signals when there are cars approaching me at the stop sign. I've seen cyclists do stupid things before though so what you said doesn't surprise me.

[Mel]

People who are blowing through stop signs are obviously at fault, if you ride on a public street all traffic laws apply to you as well. Whenever I ride my bike on the road (even if I'm riding on the sidewalk) I stop at all stop signs and give appropriate hand signals when there are cars approaching me at the stop sign. I've seen cyclists do stupid things before though so what you said doesn't surprise me.

You're one of the good guys on a cycle. So many Farms have sold out and new neighborhoods are growing like weeds. Along with this is an increase in Cyclist. Not all are abiding by Street signs and lights. Makes it a bit nerve racking when you're older and your reaction time is slower.

The Scooters themselves are not a bad idea, it's the people using them. The same people that leave their baskets pushed over into a handicap spot rather than push the cart 10 feet to a corral.

[Urbanized]

Requiring bicycles (or scooters) to stop when there is clearly no cross-traffic or when they would have the ROW after stopping anyway is only a way to punish bicyclists for daring to try to share the road with automobiles. And it has the unintended and ironic consequence of causing them to be MORE in the way of cars as it takes them far longer to get back up to speed after stopping. It completely robs bicycles of the efficiency of motion that makes them a viable mode of transportation.

The alternative is the Idaho Stop, which is slowly becoming law all over the country (though if we are true to form means we will be the last place to get it, a few decades from now).

The rate at which bicyclists are scofflaws is no different than the rate of automobile drivers, and often bicyclists are only breaking laws out of a sense of self-preservation (as OUman unwittingly just admitted to doing himself by mentioning he rides on sidewalks, which is also illegal in most places).

Here, this explains it:

https://vimeo.com/4140910

[OUman]

Requiring bicycles (or scooters) to stop when there is clearly no cross-traffic or when they would have the ROW after stopping anyway is only a way to punish bicyclists for daring to try to share the road with automobiles. And it has the unintended and ironic consequence of causing them to be MORE in the way of cars as it takes them far longer to get back up to speed after stopping. It completely robs bicycles of the efficiency of motion that makes them a viable mode of transportation.

The alternative is the Idaho Stop, which is slowly becoming law all over the country (though if we are true to form means we will be the last place to get it, a few decades from now).

The rate at which bicyclists are scofflaws is no different than the rate of automobile drivers, and often bicyclists are only breaking laws out of a sense of self-preservation (as OUman unwittingly just admitted to doing himself by mentioning he rides on sidewalks, which is also illegal in most places).

Here, this explains it:

https://vimeo.com/4140910

As far as I know riding on the sidewalks in Norman is legal in most places; I've been riding in Norman on the sidewalks where permitted for the better part of 16 years now. I haven't been stopped by any cop either. Yes, I'd rather ride on the sidewalks then risk my life (even with a helmet - but that's another topic in and of itself) with many drivers acting like they own the road. I've even been told off and shouted at to ride on the sidewalk by one self-righteous motorist in Norman (on Boyd Street, well after it became one of the city's shared-use streets).

Where it's clearly marked, I don't ride on the sidewalks, e.g. Campus Corner. Even there however, I tend to avoid the main roads and ride via back alleys where I can. I'm just one of those people that avoids taking chances if I can do it legally. Besides, aside from Boyd Street and certain parts of downtown, there are hardly any pedestrians on sidewalks elsewhere (O.U. Campus is the obvious exception, but there you are actually entitled to ride on the sidewalks). If I do come across a pedestrian, I'll either get on the road to give them way or I'll go around them.

I probably should've clarified that, of course, if there is absolutely no one around you at a stop sign then it obviously makes no sense for a bicyclist to stop. What I was referring to was cyclists or those riding Bird-type scooters blowing through stop signs or failing to yield to right-of-way traffic.

Anyway, my point in my previous post was that cyclists can (and should) also do their part to help motorists see them clearly and observe traffic rules where applicable. I've seen cyclists try to cross the road on an active 12th Avenue with cars going at 40mph, come out of nowhere on poorly lit streets with no indication to make them more visible and sometimes use poor judgement (just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should).

You're one of the good guys on a cycle. So many Farms have sold out and new neighborhoods are growing like weeds. Along with this is an increase in Cyclist. Not all are abiding by Street signs and lights. Makes it a bit nerve racking when you're older and your reaction time is slower.

The Scooters themselves are not a bad idea, it's the people using them. The same people that leave their baskets pushed over into a handicap spot rather than push the cart 10 feet to a corral.

Thanks man! I try to do my part as a cyclist. And agree with what you said.

[mkjeeves]

idaho stops

The linked video focuses on energy efficiency.

Might as well let motorists roll stops when it's clear too. Think of the millions of barrels of oil we could save.

[dankrutka]

The linked video focuses on energy efficiency.

Might as well let motorists roll stops when it's clear too. Think of the millions of barrels of oil we could save.

Yes, exactly, it's about energy efficiency, which should help you understand the different practices. Riding a bicycle requires human energy and is obviously far slower. If I always waited for a red light to turn green to go then I will slow down all the cars in my lane. If I treat a red light like a stop sign then I can move through the intersection and avoid slowing down traffic. It also makes sense from an energy standpoint on stop signs because it allows me to keep up momentum, which is far more important for a cyclist than a driver. I've always practiced the Idaho Stop before I knew what it was called. It's very intuitive if you're a cyclist.

[mkjeeves]

Yes, exactly, it's about energy efficiency, which should help you understand the different practices. Riding a bicycle requires human energy and is obviously far slower. If I always waited for a red light to turn green to go then I will slow down all the cars in my lane. If I treat a red light like a stop sign then I can move through the intersection and avoid slowing down traffic. It also makes sense from an energy standpoint on stop signs because it allows me to keep up momentum, which is far more important for a cyclist than a driver. I've always practiced the Idaho Stop before I knew what it was called. It's very intuitive if you're a cyclist.

Oh, I get it. I don't think I've had many of my 60+ years when I didn't own at least one bike. (I have two now.) I also have a 4 way stop sign in front of my house on a popular bike route. I've lived there for about 20 years. I've never seen a bike come to a stop and it's still against the law. Pet peeve, especially when the subject of bike/motorist laws/culture come up.

[Urbanized]

The linked video focuses on energy efficiency.

Might as well let motorists roll stops when it's clear too. Think of the millions of barrels of oil we could save.

The false equivalency is astounding, but of course a shared viewpoint of most people who drive automobiles but rarely if ever ride bicycles. I actually fall into this category, by the way. I constantly preach bicycle infrastructure and mode-specific rules because after years of being mostly ONLY a car driver I started to give some actual thought to what bicycles (and walking) bring to the equation not only for participants themselves but ALSO to the community, INCLUDING those of us in automobiles.

If you can get past the envy that someone else should get to behave a way that seems privileged - which is ironic, if you think about it as cars really enjoy almost ALL of the privilege by default - and read what Dan says above with an open mind you might change your mind, as I did. Or, go online and read some data (even from non-bicycle and non-urbanist publications) on how bicycle use benefits not only the environment as you mention but ALSO benefits retail businesses, pedestrians, and yes, even automobiles when properly encouraged and accounted for by infrastructure.

But in a nutshell, if you get irritated about bicyclists slowing you down when you are driving, insisting that they come to full stops in exactly the same circumstances in which cars are expected to will actually make your own experience as a car driver WORSE. Like you said, it is a pet peeve. For you and many others. But the unintended consequences of forcing those stops you'd like to see is that it would make things WAY worse for cars.

[mkjeeves]

The false equivalency is astounding, but of course a shared viewpoint of most people who drive automobiles but rarely if ever ride bicycles. I actually fall into this category, by the way. I constantly preach bicycle infrastructure and mode-specific rules because after years of being mostly ONLY a car driver I started to give some actual thought to what bicycles (and walking) bring to the equation not only for participants themselves but ALSO to the community, INCLUDING those of us in automobiles.

If you can get past the envy that someone else should get to behave a way that seems privileged - which is ironic, if you think about it as cars really enjoy almost ALL of the privilege by default - and read what Dan says above with an open mind you might change your mind, as I did. Or, go online and read some data (even from non-bicycle and non-urbanist publications) on how bicycle use benefits not only the environment as you mention but ALSO benefits retail businesses, pedestrians, and yes, even automobiles when properly encouraged and accounted for by infrastructure.

But in a nutshell, if you get irritated about bicyclists slowing you down when you are driving, insisting that they come to full stops in exactly the same circumstances in which cars are expected to will actually make your own experience as a car driver WORSE. Like you said, it is a pet peeve. For you and many others. But the unintended consequences of forcing those stops you'd like to see is that it would make things WAY worse for cars.

Two things...it was a point in the video you linked and you have made false assumptions. Read my post before yours. I will admit while I still own two bikes, I have knee and other problems that interfere with riding and I haven't ridden them in awhile.

[Urbanized]

Here's an article backing up my last point: https://www.bicycling.com/rides/a200...-obey-the-law/

Be careful what you ask for. On July 29, San Franciscan drivers—who often complain about cyclists flouting regulation—got a taste of what happens when cyclists strictly comply with traffic laws.

Across America, the law stipulates that cyclists and drivers follow the same traffic regulations, like following all street signs, signals, and markings. However, it’s no secret that some cyclists ignore road signs by yielding at stop signs or traffic lights instead of coming to complete stops. Captain John Sanford of the San Francisco Police Department gained notoriety last month after calling for a crackdown on cyclists who ignore these rules and, in doing so, endanger others. In response, protestors took to the streets to show just how bad traffic gets when bicyclists comply.

At 5:30 p.m. in the heart of popular urban bike route “The Wiggle,” dozens of cyclists organized via a Facebook page rode single-file into the street. They proceeded to stop at every intersection along the mile-long route and wait patiently for their turns—one-by-one. Traffic slowed immediately. Not too long after, a parade of cyclists rode up from Duboce Park, filling the streets with hundreds of law-abiding protestors. According to SF Weekly, frustrated drivers caught in the traffic had to wait at least 10 minutes to clear the city block and—in a damning twist—were caught breaking the law themselves, weaving into oncoming traffic and dangerously gunning straight through intersections.

“The thing you say you want—every cyclist to stop at every stop sign—you really don't want that,” protest organizer Morgan Fitzgibbons told SF Weekly. “You’re going to destroy traffic in every neighborhood that has a heavy dose of cyclists.”

What people should want, the protestors say, is adoption of the progressive “Idaho Stop Law.” In 1982, the State of Idaho enacted a law permitting cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs, and red lights as stop signs. The Idaho Stop Law allows cyclists to get in front of traffic and become more visible, thereby improving their safety. There has been debate over whether the law negatively impacts safety, but statistics show no increase in cyclist injuries or fatalities in places with this law.

And here is the linked video:

[mkjeeves]

This is the video you linked I referred to: https://vimeo.com/4140910

Do you have an answer for why it's safe for a bike to roll a stop when the intersection is clear and not a car?

[Urbanized]

Two things...it was a point in the video you linked and you have made false assumptions. Read my post before yours. I will admit while I still own two bikes, I have knee and other problems that interfere with riding and I haven't ridden them in awhile.

I've read all of your recent posts. Explain to me the false assumptions. You mean that it annoys you? You say so yourself when you called it a "pet peeve."

I don't think anyone is advocating that cars blow stop signs to save gas. The point is that the physics of bicycles and cars are very different. A car can get back up to the flow of surround traffic quite quickly; a bicycle cannot. Therefore, requiring them to fully stop ALSO slows down cars. But of course the biggest difference in physics is that a bicyclist can do very little damage to its surroundings or others if its rider makes a misjudgement, whereas an automobile will almost certainly kill its fellow travelers - or at the very least extract very life-altering damage - above a certain speed.

[Urbanized]

This is the video you linked I referred to: https://vimeo.com/4140910

Do you have an answer for why it's safe for a bike to roll a stop when the intersection is clear and not a car?

Sure. The answer is contained in the post right above this one.

[mkjeeves]

I've read all of your recent posts. Explain to me the false assumptions. You mean that it annoys your?

Here's three you made when you quoted me:

The false equivalency is astounding, but of course a shared viewpoint of most people who drive automobiles but rarely if ever ride bicycles.

If you can get past the envy

But in a nutshell, if you get irritated about bicyclists slowing you down when you are driving,

[Urbanized]

But if you'd like more, happy reading:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/...ng-6535635.php

https://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2016...safer-cyclists

http://www.thewashcycle.com/2015/12/...-is-safer.html

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a2002...es-idaho-stop/

[Urbanized]

Here's three:

The false equivalency is astounding, but of course a shared viewpoint of most people who drive automobiles but rarely if ever ride bicycles.

If you can get past the envy

But in a nutshell, if you get irritated about bicyclists slowing you down when you are driving,

How are these false assumptions? You are taking this very personally. As I point out, I myself fall in a similar category to you (a car driver and not a regular bike rider, though I'd like to be), and for a long time I also was irritated seeing bicyclists blow stops. I got past the irritation/envy when I began to read into why allowing bicycles to roll stops is the safer and more efficient method for ALL on the road, including cars.

Point by point:

1. It clearly IS false equivalency. The physics of a bicycle are completely different, including power delivery, time to get to speed, and also most importantly the damage each type of vehicle can inflict on others. But as I am quick to point out it is a false equivalency shared by a massive segment of the population. Easily a majority, I'm sure. I felt that way myself for years. There is no reason to take this comment personally.
   
   
2. This was intended to be a general "you," not an mkjeeves "you." Sorry that wasn't more clear. Most people are irritated when they follow rules and they see others not following. It's human nature. I have no idea what causes your particular brand of irritation, but you clearly admit to it being a pet peeve.
   
   
3. Again, a general "you." As in, people in general don't like bikes on the road with them because they feel like bikes are slowing them down, or they don't like having to watch out for them, or a host of other common complaints. The REAL problem is that limited bicycle-friendly infrastructure puts them in conflict with one another.
   

Not sure why you are taking things so personally, unless you just don't feel people should get to disagree with you. But then again, I will point out that you are the one who entered the fray first to post a dismissive comment directed at something I posted.

[Mel]

I should have mentioned in my previous post, I was talking ab out Mustang. Several of the younger Farmers are getting undercut by Super Farm companies and do not like the low profit margin. The Bicycle presence has really grown with the younger couples fleeing to smaller outlying towns. It's a learning curve for both parties. It's mostly in the Neighborhoods that they blow stop signs, and on a curvy road, that can really catch the driver off guard. Even at 25 MPH. I'm getting old and my reaction time is slowing down. I usually don't go off on bad car drivers due to the shear number of them I try to avoid anytime I'm out and about.