University Town Center

[Plutonic Panda]

Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium. There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game. I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come.
If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).

Regardless it’s part of the school and the students should have the option of walking to buildings and areas that are made more walkable. Real world experience currently tells me most students at universities want to walk and bikers, not drive to, buildings on campus or that should be on campus.

[dankrutka]

Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium. There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game. I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come.
If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).

My real world experience contradicts yours as I walked to every football home game between 2000-2011 wherever I lived in Norman (save one year out of Norman) and never walked to a single basketball game. Every football game day I see hundreds of people walking from all over. Yes, I do think tons of people will talk to games. It's not going to happen in Norman between the main campus and the LNC, but all evidence suggests that tempeture does not dissuade people from walking/biking in actual walkable environments. Tons of cold places on earth have huge numbers of pedestrian and bike commuters. It's all about building it. Anyway, I do think an on campus basketball arena would help bring more students to games. Just my opinion.

[macfoucin]

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7181a...c1b154140c.pdf here is the master plan from www.universitynorthpark.com

[macfoucin]

^ not sure if there is any new info here

[jonny d]

I love seeing that the Town Center is under development...yeah, since 2008!

[Pete]

They are really lobbying for a big TIF to fund the arena in their proposed Entertainment District.

This would be on top of the TIF they already have for that entire development.

[onthestrip]

My real world experience contradicts yours as I walked to every football home game between 2000-2011 wherever I lived in Norman (save one year out of Norman) and never walked to a single basketball game. Every football game day I see hundreds of people walking from all over. Yes, I do think tons of people will talk to games. It's not going to happen in Norman between the main campus and the LNC, but all evidence suggests that tempeture does not dissuade people from walking/biking in actual walkable environments. Tons of cold places on earth have huge numbers of pedestrian and bike commuters. It's all about building it. Anyway, I do think an on campus basketball arena would help bring more students to games. Just my opinion.

This is obvious imo. Im sure if you looked at all D1 schools that have on campus arenas vs off campus and their attendance, on campus would be higher. And hard to measure but the tougher playing environments have to be from on campus arenas that have solid student fan attendance.

They are really lobbying for a big TIF to fund the arena in their proposed Entertainment District.

This would be on top of the TIF they already have for that entire development.

Why bother with a fund raising campaign or raising student fees again when you can just have local taxpayers pick up the tab without their say so.

[Pete]

A reminder that a key requirement of any TIF district in Oklahoma as set by law is that the area be 'blighted'.

As you can see, we have completely bastardized that stipulation and intent over and over again.

[BoulderSooner]

A reminder that a key requirement of any TIF district in Oklahoma as set by law is that the area be 'blighted'.

As you can see, we have completely bastardized that stipulation and intent over and over again.

Where is that requirement in the statute?

[FighttheGoodFight]

Noticing a lot of signs around town for "Yes! UNP!" and "Stop TIF for UNP. Balance the Budget."

[mattjank]

Noticing a lot of signs around town for "Yes! UNP!" and "Stop TIF for UNP. Balance the Budget."

I'm sure its a done deal. Really wish the city would pump the brakes on this. It seems like more of the same. Looking back at what was promised and what has been delivered is so disappointing. No reason this is not going to turn out the same way.

[Rover]

UNP seems like from a commercial standpoint it has been very successful. I know the hard urbanists here would rather there be no parking and it look like a 1940 downtown, but the truth is that you can spend all day there and for the most part walk and shop the whole time. For being in a city of 100,000 people, it always seems very busy. And they keep adding national brands new to OK, or OKC, especially eating establishments. It seems like a great spot to add the entertainment module with a mid-sized arena.

[OUman]

^On the weekends, it's almost too busy. I went to get some carryout at Torchy's one weekend a few months back and traffic was pretty bad. Looked like Austin. I actually saved time by heading north to Tecumseh, then heading back south on Flood on my way home. Just as an aside, I think the 2015 estimate of Norman's population is over 120,000 now.

I have heard and read though that Norman serves as a shopping stop for the smaller communities surrounding it, especially on the southern sides - Noble, Goldsby, Washington, Little Axe and Purcell, among others. This might explain some of the weekend influx of traffic, especially on the weekends.

[Ross MacLochness]

fwiw, you could fit way more people and stores there if it was a truly walkable people place. I don't think any urbanist type would say that UTC is not successful, but boy could it have been a better/more profitable experience if it had been designed better.

[Pete]

The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.

[jonny d]

The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.

If it had been built 5 years previous, it would have been built as promised, I believe. They just have the town center in the master plan. The economic recession and oil price drop hurt this development a lot.

[Pete]

Right, but the effect is still the same.

One huge problem with these sorts of subsidies is that they are very unfair to competitors.

[soonermike81]

Going slightly off-topic, but has anyone else seen the CarMax being constructed in the area? Seems like a much smaller footprint than all the Carmax locations I’ve seen. Is this something that they are doing for new locations going forward?

[mattjank]

If it had been built 5 years previous, it would have been built as promised, I believe. They just have the town center in the master plan. The economic recession and oil price drop hurt this development a lot.

Then the Foundation should at least admit that this is the same situation. The economic numbers presented by the Foundation seem to be super inflated. They assume that all new residents to the area will be 1) new to Norman, and 2) have an income 33% greater than the current average income. Even if its built as stated, which I believe is highly unlikely given the track record, I have no doubt it will continue to poach existing businesses. If housing is actually completed this time, I have no doubt those will also poach from the rest of Norman as well, and not be new to the city.

[Pete]

^

Right, the underlying assumptions of the benefits of subsidies are rarely challenged and often put forth in glossy presentations that frequently provide only one side and are based on premises that cannot be proven.

And communities often employ full-time economic development staff who have every motivation to get such incentives passed. Makes them look good in their job and doesn't cost them anything. IMO, it's a fundamentally flawed approach which is why I write about it so much.

[Rover]

fwiw, you could fit way more people and stores there if it was a truly walkable people place. I don't think any urbanist type would say that UTC is not successful, but boy could it have been a better/more profitable experience if it had been designed better.

More profitable how?

[Rover]

The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.

Seems like there are tons of new concepts in Norman now and an overall improvement of goods and services available. Seems like more and better is a good thing for Norman.

What has the net effect been on sales tax so far?

[Pete]

Seems like there are tons of new concepts in Norman now and an overall improvement of goods and services available. Seems like more and better is a good thing for Norman.

What has the net effect been on sales tax so far?

We're talking about taxpayer subsidies. Impossible to prove that all or most of this wouldn't have happened without those public gifts. And before anyone agrues "No way you can prove it would have" I will point one the burden of proof is on those advocating for millions of tax dollars being spent in this way.

Especially since Norman, Moore and almost everywhere in OKC is seeing a commercial boom and 99.8% of that development does not receive public assistance of any kind.

[Ross MacLochness]

More profitable how?

I have no data to back this up but it seems as though it would be more profitable due to more shops/more people/"better" experience per amount of infrastructure (parking lots, streets, lighting, plumming, etc) provided. People would be more likely to stick around and meander from place to place, perhaps visiting stores they wouldn't enter unless they just happened to be passing by. Perhaps folk wopuld be more inclined to buy, say, an ice cream cone or coffee as an extra expense as they strolled to their stores. Purely speculation so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

[mattjank]

I have no data to back this up but it seems as though it would be more profitable due to more shops/more people/"better" experience per amount of infrastructure (parking lots, streets, lighting, plumming, etc) provided. People would be more likely to stick around and meander from place to place, perhaps visiting stores they wouldn't enter unless they just happened to be passing by. Perhaps folk wopuld be more inclined to buy, say, an ice cream cone or coffee as an extra expense as they strolled to their stores. Purely speculation so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

Agreed. I've never eaten at Tuckers, Torchy's, Zoe's Red Rock, and then thought about walking around the strip mall. Likewise, if I go to Target or Crest, that's the only place I go. I'd much rather drive home and walk my neighborhood, than walk through parking lots. This was sold as a lifestyle center, and I think of that as similar to the Domain in Austin, which once you get into the shopping/restaurant area you want to walk from place to place. There's shade, nice wide sidewalks, and plenty of spaces where the street is narrowed for pedestrian crossings. We got none of that. I haven't been shown that this development will be any more. We'll get an arena on a prime piece of land surrounded by parking. No thanks.