Streetcar

[Urbanized]

There is definitely a platform.

The stop and recharge period is required because of so much time off-wire along the route.

[catch22]

There is definitely a platform.

The stop and recharge period is required because of so much time off-wire along the route.

Thanks for the clarification on the platform. I still think it is a design flaw - we shouldn’t have such long stretches off-wire if it results in this.

[Urbanized]

Personally I would have left the whole thing on-wire (other than you still would have to lower the pantograph to make it under the Sheridan and Reno bridges, so there would still need to be hybrid technology to make it into/out of Bricktown). I'm not troubled about the appearance of the OCS at all, though others on the site have grumbled about it.

All of that said, in reading up on the trains we are getting, I think if battery technology improves enough by the time we have to replace these batteries that it's possible they could retrofit all stations with induction plates that would fast charge at every stop. That is something that apparently Brookfield is working on (and which I think has been done already in China), and it would eliminate the need for OCS entirely.

[warreng88]

Phone it in: New OKC transit fare system is an app

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record April 18, 2018

OKLAHOMA CITY – The Central Oklahoma Transportation & Parking Authority is upgrading its passenger payment systems ahead of the installation of a new downtown streetcar.

A new mobile ticketing and fare inspection application will complement the existing system rather than be a replacement, spokesman Michael Scroggins said. It will rely primarily on a downloadable app rather than more expensive hardware to read so-called contactless chip-embedded credit and debit cards.

City officials are still negotiating details of the $150,000 contract bid. Scroggins said a final deal is expected to be submitted for approval at the next board meeting and then sent to the City Council for consideration. Implementation is expected before the end of the year.

The request for proposals posted in November drew six bids, five of which were deemed appropriate. The selection committee, with advisement from Four Nines Technologies, narrowed the proposals to two: Corethree in the United Kingdom and Token Transit Inc. in California.

The city’s current collection system for its buses is based on cash fare boxes that issue passes. Multi-use passes can be purchased at the transit hub. The new system will be accessed entirely through smartphones.

Scroggins said COTPA officials looked at radio-frequency-enabled debit and credit cards for the streetcars, an option that has been incorporated into larger transit systems elsewhere in the country such as New York City’s Metropolitan Transportation Authority. But Oklahoma City is in a difficult position between being able to start fresh with cutting-edge technology and not having enough travelers for some systems to be cost-effective.

City Hall recently unveiled the new MAPS 3 streetcar storage and maintenance facility at SW Seventh Street and Hudson Avenue. Installation work continues on nearly 7 miles of rail and 22 stops throughout downtown. Each streetcar will carry up to 104 passengers.

[bradh]

Would that be something like you could add to an Apple Wallet and use your iPhone for payment?

[Urban Pioneer]

Just a bit of additional clarification on the "super-charging" station stop at the OKC Boulevard. Trains are designed to pass through that area without necessarily having to stop and recharge every time. D-Line trains have more juice in their batteries however as they have been on-wire for a longer period of time overall. However, B-Line trains are only on-battery in the Bricktown area but are technically under less stress as most of that route is without major grade changes.

The theory is that trains may be forced to dwell at that location longer than other stops to deal with bigger influxes of people as well due to the new Convention Center, Park, and Chesapeake Arena. So this stop is actually fairly ambidextrous in purpose. Trains can sit there as long as needed for whatever reason on either side of the stop. It is the only double-sided stop in the system with automatic driver actuated switching mechanisms.

The committee is committed to making recommendations if additional catenary wire is needed. The only way to know for sure is to stress test the system over several months. Not having the wire is pretty much a Devon driven issue. Nobody on the committee is opposed to more catenary if it proves that there is a problem in real life that the modeling used by our engineers didn't factor.

The "station-to-station" charging system concept is used by the Seimens Corporation in Qatar. We're not there yet and may actually put up more wire if it turns out there are problems. We are also proposing a backup generator as part of our upcoming expenditures so that the Bricktown OG+E service can go down and we can use the super-charger as a redundant mechanism to keep trains up an running.

We believe this is so worthwhile longterm that we have already installed duct banks for it back to the maintenance facility where it would be located. The MF would also be backed up on the same generation circuits.

Sorry for the dissertation. I just want to make sure everyone understands that we are being very cautious and thinking ahead.

[David]

Makes sense. Needing charging times on account of the off-wire time seems like potentially an annoying problem, but the solution of just adding more wire isn't exactly a huge engineering challenge.

[OKC Guy]

Questions:

1. Are the cabs air conditioned and if so how will they work in our extreme summer temps? And will the use of AC drain batteries faster possibly resulting in using AC less to conserve batteries, thus making the ride miserable?

2. This is not a complaint rather my uneducated questions/comments. Since we have 3 peak car rush hour periods in each work day meaning there are lots of cars driving these same streets - how will the tram navigate traffic without getting stuck in same traffic and thus possibly hirting ridership if late arriving? For example if traffic is backed up at a light at noon it has to also wait for same light. Then on green light only so much traffic can move because the road after the light is backed up so only so many cars get thru. So if a car ahead of tram is not able to go before next red that means tram is stuck too. Am I wrong in how this will work? I am thinking morning/noon/afternoon is about 6 to 7 hours total of packed traffic where tram might get stuck. And then during big events like Thunder games if the roads are full of non moving car traffic how is tram going to keep a schedule? Maybe I don’t know enough and cars will be blocked from tram lanes?

Thanks in advance

[d-usa]

I think the lights will be prioritized to the streetcar.

[OKC Guy]

I think the lights will be prioritized to the streetcar.

I think the lights will be prioritized to the streetcar.

Thanks. So wouldn’t that mean drivers also learn to take advantage knowing those lights are timed to get more traffic flow, thus still creating a backup of traffic? I am trying to see how trams can move any faster than traffic. Since it appears the trams are not in a dedicated lane I am not seeing how they will move faster. Especially during lunch hour if one takes tram they might be delayed getting to/from location this reducing ridership at peak times? Maybe I am just not aware of how that will be handled.

And do you have any ideas on the AC/summer question? It can get awful hot here and we want out of towners to at least have a great tram experience.

On the roads I am thinking if traffic bottlenecks significantly and slows down trams they might have to block one lane to traffic to allow tram to keep schedules. Maybe I just don’t know enough yet.

I seen mentioned the medical district. One other concern is with no tram on that side of 235, and since a lot of medical folks go over to West of 235 to eat lunch - they will still drive cars and that keeps roads clogged. Not enough eating places on East side so most go West over 235 to eat. The medical district was never designed to be entertainment or eating area thus why most venture over 235 for better/more choices.

Thanks

[catch22]

They don’t have to move faster than traffic. They are an alternative to driving. The only time transit needs to move faster than traffic to be enticing is for commuter purposes. I.e. Edmond/mwc/Norman to OKC.

[Plutonic Panda]

They don’t have to move faster than traffic. They are an alternative to driving. The only time transit needs to move faster than traffic to be enticing is for commuter purposes. I.e. Edmond/mwc/Norman to OKC.

Any mass transit should move faster than traffic or otherwise what’s the befit to the commuter?

[catch22]

Any mass transit should move faster than traffic or otherwise what’s the befit to the commuter?

I specifically addressed commuter transit should move faster than traffic. A downtown circulator is not a commuter mode.

[LocoAko]

I specifically addressed commuter transit should move faster than traffic. A downtown circulator is not a commuter mode.

Plus, while not your point, it can be nice to zone out and not have to focus on driving after a day at work, read a book, check one's phone, etc. even if you moving at the same speed as other cars. My father back in Jersey City opts to take the bus in the same traffic he used to drive in just to avoid putting the miles on his car and to be able to rest/check his emails on his commute.

[Plutonic Panda]

Plus, while not your point, it can be nice to zone out and not have to focus on driving after a day at work, read a book, check one's phone, etc. even if you moving at the same speed as other cars. My father back in Jersey City opts to take the bus in the same traffic he used to drive in just to avoid putting the miles on his car and to be able to rest/check his emails on his commute.

While true right now, autonomous cars will make this advantage mass transit currently has invalid. The only remaining advantages transit will have is that is more eco friendly to pack people like sardines and transport them than their own personal car and a more prevalent social aspect for transit users.

While the streetcar might not be used for commuting purposes, I still think it is important to give it as many advantages as possible. Like it or not, many of OKC's benefits that currently exist such as low housing costs and low traffic won't in the near future. I have noticed a major increase in traffic since I've been back for the past several weeks. While traffic isn't necessarily backing up, it would seem the steady river of traffic that flows down freeways now exist in OKC and I have never seen that before. There was usually large gaps between 'pools' of drivers on most freeways. It isn't long until chronic congestion hits the freeways in OKC and the downtown area. It will be important that any mass transit has its own dedicated lanes to move past traffic especially in downtown where a lot of people are generally in a hurry.

[OKC Guy]

On the traffic, right now 235/44 work acts like a traffic throttle. Once 235/44 is completed you will “rush” cars downtown faster to the roads in tram area. Thus that will create more backed up roads. Traffic does back up even now during rush hours and lunchtimes.

I think its important the tram can navigate faster than most traffic. Otherwise it could be a novelty ride and not a preffered ride. There are good points not having to drive but there are those who will want to use car if its same speed. Maybe they can put traffic aids similar to what some cities do for ambulances which turn lights green for them. But even so then traffic will learn this and use that lane knowing they can get around faster.

If there is no traffic advantage my question is, wouldn’t a fancy bus have been much cheaper and more comfy and able to adjust routes as downtown grows? I want the tram to work but the traffic issue during most busy times is worrisome. Of course off work hours will be fine except during big events like Thunder games. Roads are a parking lot after games so the tram won’t move anyone for at least an hour or so.

I am curious if any studies have been completed to document how many total hours it will run and then how many hours of mass traffic exist (in the total run hours). And has anyone test driven a car all of those exact opersting hours on the exact route to figure out the bad hours - to know best how to work the schedule. If a car takes 20 minutes to do the route on a Sat and takes 45 minutes during peak traffic hours - this would help decide hiw to make schedules that are accurate. If people are using this during lunch they want to know if its on time.

Thanks for the replies and also all the info in this thread is great.

[catch22]

I believe signal prioritization is included in the project. Once the streetcar is ready to enter the intersection the lights will change.

Portland streetcar operates in vehicle traffic lanes and it functions well enough even in Portland’s mind numbing traffic.

[Urbanized]

While true right now, autonomous cars will make this advantage mass transit currently has invalid. The only remaining advantages transit will have is that is more eco friendly to pack people like sardines and transport them than their own personal car and a more prevalent social aspect for transit users...

PluPan, this “magical solution” view is rapidly being discounted by traffic planners and city planners as they put more thought into the autonomous future. Total conversion to individual autonomous vehicles and amandonment of mass transit causes all sorts of inefficiencies and unintended consequences. Even the most ardent defenders of the autonomous future are starting to move away from the idea that it would be mostly single-occupant, single-destination vehicles and are instead accepting that the best and most efficient use of self-driving technology would be SHARED autonomous vehicles which would supplement rather than compete with other forms of transportation.

Simply put, individual-use autonomous vehicles do basically NOTHING to solve problems of geometry - that is, how much road space is occupied to serve an individual user - and in fact have great potential to make it worse via increased trips due to convenience, increased driving miles due to a lessening of the windshield time penalty associated with sprawl, unoccupied block circling, unoccupied drives to remote free parking, etc.. It also leads to innefficiencies during high-volume times such as rush hour, event let-out, or bar closing times (you can already see this happening in cities thanks to Uber and Lyft).

Simply put, the more dense an area is, the more likely it is that mass transit will remain the best and most efficient option, especially with dedicated ROW. Other modes (walking, cycling, shared autonomous) also work very well at the beginning or end of such trips.

I know you stay pretty open minded and I’ve seen you shift some of your views based on new information, so if you have time I’d like for you read some or all of these articles and tell me what you think of the points made within:

https://ggwash.org/view/65239/catos-...corporate-them

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/17...se-congestion/

https://seattletransitblog.com/2016/...nsit-obsolete/

https://grist.org/business-technolog...ransportation/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ciocent.../#5a9fdb27bf4c

https://blog.transloc.com/blog/will-...public-transit

http://activetrans.org/blog/why-uber...public-transit

[cinnamonjock]

I think some people are focusing too much on how fast the tram will be and not on how convenient it will to not have to park. Once you get to work downtown and put yourself on the 3rd or 4th floor of a parking garage, you don't necessarily want to drive back down the garage, find somewhere to park again, and then drive back up the garage again. Same for thunder games and concerts: you won't have to find a spot to park close to the arena once you park where you want to eat beforehand.

[Laramie]

It's a real challenge to envision all of this coming together; streetcar, traffic signals & right of way with the current on-going construction. Urbanize, Pete & Urban Pioneer, you guys are a blessing with the knowledge you have shared with us on this forum.

Rendering of the Oklahoma City Streetcar's Myriad Gardens stop. Photo – Embark

Once we get past this building maze in the core, we'll have a better view of the grand scheme in 2020:

Convention Center
OKC Boulevard completion
Omni Convention Center Hotel
Santa Fe Station Intermodal Hub
Scissortail Park
Streetcar

OKC's $2.3 billion (MAPS 3, MAPS 3 extension, GOBonds) investment will transform our entire community; think about the private development that will coincide with the current transformation.

[Anonymous.]

I think some people are focusing too much on how fast the tram will be and not on how convenient it will to not have to park. Once you get to work downtown and put yourself on the 3rd or 4th floor of a parking garage, you don't necessarily want to drive back down the garage, find somewhere to park again, and then drive back up the garage again. Same for thunder games and concerts: you won't have to find a spot to park close to the arena once you park where you want to eat beforehand.

This.

Many downtown workers have to walk to the office from a parking garage or lot. Being able to just walk to the streetcar stop and then ride to lunch with coworkers is a totally different experience than figuring out who is driving, walk to the garage, exit the garage, find a parking spot @ the destination, returning and repeating the first steps in reverse. The concern about it not moving as fast as cars is pointless, even if it did move the same speed - it is still way better for all the reasons posters above have mentioned. But then again, after time - the signal prioritization will be mastered and the streetcar will definitely be faster than cars.

[Urban Pioneer]

I put this on our Facebook page but thought it would be of interest here.


PROJECT UPDATE- Just now, the Auto Alley streetcar stop under construction at 8th and Broadway.
Workers scramble to prepare Broadway Ave. for the OKC Memorial Marathon this weekend. Streets are being paved and interrupted construction work prepped for this major event.
For those of us experiencing construction fatigue, here are some promising system-wide numbers-
99% of Utilities are clear
77% of Street demolition for Tracks is completed
70% of the Track has been installed
89% of Foundations for Catenary Poles have been installed
13 of 22 Stops have been completed
34% of Overhead contact wire has been installed
100% of Energy substations have been completed
4 of 7 Trains have been delivered
That being stated, be sure to support our local retailers and businesses in the affected areas. It is a tremendous amount of pain to endure the construction impacts. The result will be extraordinarily however for all our citizens and businesses.
Completion and full operation is still on schedule for November - December. Testing of trains is anticipated to start on the B-Line in May.- Jeff Bezdek, Streetcar Oversight Committee Member

[OKCbyTRANSFER]

You said it well, construction fatigue, I admit living downtown right now is a major heartache. Between the street car, P180 & now OKC Blvd, I'm struggling. I'm all for progress, but yeah, fatigue is settling in. Glad to see those numbers showing how far along it's progressed.

[CCOKC]

I'm just glad I do live and work downtown. My car rarely leaves my parking garage and I don't have as large of a headache as the drivers do.

[Urbanized]

I noticed at various places all along the Bricktown loop that during the day yesterday they had blown out and/or powerwashed the track grooves, cleaning out dirt, sand and construction debris. Also noticed today some obviously-technical and probably supervisory personnel from one or more of the firms/organizations involved doing close inspections of the track, measuring between the rails using specialized tools, taking notes etc.. Since all track sections on the Bricktown loop are now complete I took this as an indication that they are doing final technical inspections before they hand track over, and the cleaning probably means that train testing is about to be expanded to the Bricktown loop portion.