Costco

[Plutonic Panda]

As exciting as the prospect of a Costco for OKC is, this would be a good opportunity for OKC to put its foot down and turn down and let them walk away if they want incentives. OKC should be a big enough city where it doesn’t need to offer incentives for warehouse stores to locate there and if they go to Edmond or Norman then let them. It won’t make or break the city. I’m not sure if cities like OKC are offering incentives for Costco or the like.

[josh]

As exciting as the prospect of a Costco for OKC is, this would be a good opportunity for OKC to put its foot down and turn down and let them walk away if they want incentives. OKC should be a big enough city where it doesn’t need to offer incentives for warehouse stores to locate there and if they go to Edmond or Norman then let them. It won’t make or break the city. I’m not sure if cities like OKC are offering incentives for Costco or the like.

Costco definitely asks for incentives in cities they otherwise wouldn’t voluntarily go to. An example is El Paso. They used incentives to bring Costco and Top Golf to their city.

[Plutonic Panda]

El Paso is a much smaller city than OKC if you exclude Juarez across the border which makes sense. What about San Antonio? I realize SA is much larger than OKC but are you aware of SA giving an incentives to Costco or similar stores?

[stile99]

Didn't we already have the "incentives are bad" "everyone else gets them so why not" "they shouldn't be needed, that's all I'm saying" discussion?

[josh]

El Paso is a much smaller city than OKC if you exclude Juarez across the border which makes sense. What about San Antonio? I realize SA is much larger than OKC but are you aware of SA giving an incentives to Costco or similar stores?

There are three Costco’s In San Antonio and non of them were given incentives to build.

[Pete]

There are three Costco’s In San Antonio and non of them were given incentives to build.

I would bet that the large majority of Costco's have received zero incentives.

There were tons all over California where retail incentives are rare.

[josh]

I would bet that the large majority of Costco's have received zero incentives.

There were tons all over California where retail incentives are rare.

Yeah, in Texas, the only places I see give incentives to retail or entertainment businesses are El Paso, Corpus Christi and the Rio Grande Valley.

[jerrywall]

Incentives have always been a mixed bag for me. I understand why they happen, and I wish cities wouldn't participate in the competition but as long as it happens they seem to be necessary. But I don't get why there's value in giving incentives to Bass Pro and not to local outdoor supply places like Backwoods. I guess in Costco's case, they pay better than minimum wage and offer some good benefits, so there's some benefit there, but if the market is there for them in OKC wouldn't they come regardless? I could see Moore, Edmond, or Norman needing to incentivize them but it feels like OKC has the base to get them without incentives. I think we're for the better with Costco but unlike other unique style businesses we're lacking like an Ikea or a Container Store, Costco doesn't bring in anything new or unique to the metro.

[Swake]

I think it's been about a month since the announcement of the City of OKC negotiating with Costco over a reported 3 million dollar tax deal.

I would have thought this would have been finished now and building plans filed, permits ordered, whatever, but not a peep since then.

I wonder if this deal is even viably working?

I've been a Costco member for about 10 years. I used to buy in DFW, Albuquerque and California but now I usually just drive to Tulsa every 4 to 6 weeks.

I wouldn’t worry about the deal. These things take time.

Tulsa’s Costco was officially announced in April 2014 but construction didn’t start until March 2015. The store didn’t open until April 2016, two full years after it was announced.

[josh]

The difference seems to be the OKC Costco won’t actually materialize unless the 3 million dollar incentive gets approved. So, there’s an extra step that needs to happen before an official announcement that CostCo is opening a store can even happen.

That extra step is what I believe they’re worried about.

[Pete]

Tulsa provided similar incentives to Costco and the process was more or less the same.

[josh]

Tulsa provided similar incentives to Costco and the process was more or less the same.

Ah. He didn’t mention incentives. So, Tulsa also provided incentives. Makes sense.

[Plutonic Panda]

Incentives have always been a mixed bag for me. I understand why they happen, and I wish cities wouldn't participate in the competition but as long as it happens they seem to be necessary. But I don't get why there's value in giving incentives to Bass Pro and not to local outdoor supply places like Backwoods. I guess in Costco's case, they pay better than minimum wage and offer some good benefits, so there's some benefit there, but if the market is there for them in OKC wouldn't they come regardless? I could see Moore, Edmond, or Norman needing to incentivize them but it feels like OKC has the base to get them without incentives. I think we're for the better with Costco but unlike other unique style businesses we're lacking like an Ikea or a Container Store, Costco doesn't bring in anything new or unique to the metro.

They weren't necessary for San Antonio.

[Urbanized]

Yeah, in Texas, the only places I see give incentives to retail or entertainment businesses are El Paso, Corpus Christi and the Rio Grande Valley.

Sorry, this is total BS. Here is what I came up with using only minimal effort:

http://www.cityofcarrollton.com/depa...ent-incentives

Specialty Retail & Restaurant Incentive Policy

GENERAL PURPOSE
The City seeks to recruit new and retain existing unique, specialty retailers and restaurants that help to differentiate Carrollton from dining and entertainment venues in other communities within the Dallas Metroplex and to contribute to the City Council’s overall vision of enhancing quality of life for Carrollton’s residents. The proposed Specialty Retail & Restaurant Incentive Policy serves the community’s desires for attracting and retaining unique, quality retailers and restaurants that do not already have a strong presence in the marketplace.

http://rowlettonthemove.com/incentives-policy.php

B. Specialty Retail, Entertainment, and Restaurant
The City may consider providing incentives to “destination” retailers and restaurants that have the capability to attract customers from outside the area and fit well into the existing retail/restaurant economy to provide new and different shopping, dining, and/or entertainment experiences. Local, Regional, and National retailers or restaurants may apply if they meet the above qualifications. This incentive may also be considered for existing “destination” retailers and restaurants that are expanding or relocating if their added square footage is a minimum of 50% larger than their current space.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/n...-on-grand.html

Grand Prairie is working with IKEA on economic incentives for building roads and utilities on the plot of land. Roth said the company will be reimbursed based on how much it builds, but did not have a range of how much that might be.

By the way, the Frisco IKEA also was landed using incentives. Frisco is crazy with incentives of all kinds. So are tons of others. It only requires a simple Google search to know this. Not sure why people post things they either know to be untrue or at the very least know that they don't know for sure in this, the era of Google searches.

Speaking of crazy with incentives, there is also this one:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news...il-development

THE COLONY — In a sparse field off State Highway 121, work is beginning on what will soon be the largest furniture store in North America.

But the Nebraska Furniture Mart is notable for more than its size. In luring the chain to town, The Colony has promised one of the most generous economic development packages ever offered in North Texas and beyond. Documents show that the city of about 40,000 plans to spend up to $802 million to help build the store and its surrounding developments.

That commitment amounts to more than 15 times the city’s annual budget.

By the way, this web search was enlightening, thanks for driving me in that direction. Not retail-oriented, but turned up a few jewels regarding incentives in general that completely fly in the face of the statements regularly made on here about this topic. Here's a taste: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/u...pagewanted=all

...Texas gives out more of the incentives than any other state, around $19 billion a year...

(This was in 2012)

And more: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...-zero-sum-deal

...Across Texas, municipal economic development corporations paid out $139 million in 2015 in grants, tax rebates and rent subsidies to businesses, according to the most recent report from the Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts. That’s up 53 percent from 2007....

[Urbanized]

Again, I'm not advocating for or against incentives in making these posts; only trying to keep the conversation honest.

[jerrywall]

Urbanized. I'm curious, because you're more connected than me. On the issue of incentives, any thoughts on what makes a business more "deserving" for lack of a better word, of incentives. I imagine quality of life contributions, or something unique to the market. I just don't always understand the criteria. Or should there be in your opinion? Obviously with the qualifier that I'm not expecting you to be pro or con on incentives. Sort of a if you were pro question based on your experience.

[josh]

Sorry, this is total BS. Here is what I came up with using only minimal effort:

http://www.cityofcarrollton.com/depa...ent-incentives



http://rowlettonthemove.com/incentives-policy.php



https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/n...-on-grand.html



By the way, the Frisco IKEA also was landed using incentives. Frisco is crazy with incentives of all kinds. So are tons of others. It only requires a simple Google search to know this. Not sure why people post things they either know to be untrue or at the very least know that they don't know for sure in this, the era of Google searches.

Speaking of crazy with incentives, there is also this one:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news...il-development



By the way, this web search was enlightening, thanks for driving me in that direction. Not retail-oriented, but turned up a few jewels regarding incentives in general that completely fly in the face of the statements regularly made on here about this topic. Here's a taste: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/u...pagewanted=all



(This was in 2012)

And more: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...-zero-sum-deal

I’m not sure how what I did was BS when I stated as what I’ve seen and not some overall absolute statement regarding Texas.

I didn’t google any information, those cities are cities I read about either in the news or on respective forums dedicated to those cities that posted about Costco, Top Golf and other entertainment and retail businesses that those cities used incentives for.

I never read about Carrollton or whichever other small cities in north Texas that used incentives so I didn’t list them above.

[Urbanized]

I’m not sure how what I did was BS when I stated as what I’ve seen and not some overall absolute statement regarding Texas.

I didn’t google any information, those cities are cities I read about either in the news or on respective forums dedicated to those cities that posted about Costco, Top Golf and other entertainment and retail businesses that those cities used incentives for.

I never read about Carrollton or whichever other small cities in north Texas that used incentives so I didn’t list them above.

Dude. Here is your DIRECT QUOTE (which I also quoted in that response:

Yeah, in Texas, the only places I see give incentives to retail or entertainment businesses are El Paso, Corpus Christi and the Rio Grande Valley.

And by the way, you make it sound like towns like Carrollton and Frisco are the same as Luther or Else Reno or something. OKC and Tulsa would KILL to have some of the retail and economic development happening in backwaters of the Dallas metroplex.

Should Dallas itself be doing retail incentives? Probably not. It's a top five market in the U.S., and has disproportionate concentrated disposable income. OKC ain't Dallas. Neither, by the way is Fort Worth (who DOES use retail incentives) or Austin. Or San Antonio. If you're comparing OKC to Dallas you'd might as well compare us to NYC or San Francisco.

But that is NOT what you were doing. You very clearly suggested that in Texas, retail incentives were pretty much only happening in El Paso, Corpus and the Rio Grande Valley. Which is clearly BS.

I mean, are you saying I read your comment wrong? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Urbanized]

By the way, just because Dallas proper may not be incentivizing retail doesn't mean they aren't doing hella corporate incentives, for instance TIF. This search really opened my eyes. Dallas is spending CRAZY MONEY on incentives.

[Urbanized]

Urbanized. I'm curious, because you're more connected than me. On the issue of incentives, any thoughts on what makes a business more "deserving" for lack of a better word, of incentives. I imagine quality of life contributions, or something unique to the market. I just don't always understand the criteria. Or should there be in your opinion? Obviously with the qualifier that I'm not expecting you to be pro or con on incentives. Sort of a if you were pro question based on your experience.

My personal opinion is that unilaterally disarming when literally nearly every major city in America is doing them currently would be terrible strategy and would only guarantee that we aren't considered. So I think they have to be a part of the overall picture, for better or worse, until things change nationally.

Regarding the other part of your question I think that the "but for" argument is the most compelling. Also I think an honest attempt must be made to determine whether the incentive will be offset by economic and tax gain. Pete has made some good points about how this is figured. You can certainly get whatever numbers you want in a projection if you are only trying to prove your case. Confirmation bias also comes into play.

That said, I don't think the process can/will ever be as transparent as some would like. Negotiations happen behind closed doors for many reasons, none of which must be nefarious. By the way, as I've pointed out before, the City and its agencies negotiate million+ dollar deals every day, on average. If there is an expectation that this would ever be done around the City Council horseshoe, that will never be the case.

[Urbanized]

Also by the way to the point of letting something like COSTCO slip to Edmond or MWC or wherever, I think OKC absolutely has to protect its own interests here. Those retailers and employers want to be in the metro because of OKCs efforts, I'm sorry. Including retail recruitment efforts.

So if OKC's recruitment efforts combined with quality of life and corporate community is what attracted a retailer, then OKC needs to receive the tax benefit. I hate to be harsh toward our suburban partners, but we have to be in the self-preservation business thanks to our budget model, which relies nearly completely on sales tax. In fact due to his I'd almost rather a major employer slide to an OKC suburb than a major retailer.

One of the articles I ran across (thanks josh!) was about how dog-eat-dog it is in the DFW metroplex right now with cities there cannibalizing each other and using incentives to do so.

OKC must remain top banana in central Oklahoma, and we need to be able to pay for city services etc without seeing our income leached off.

[gopokes88]

Texas cities are the gold standard for incentives. Hell Arlington just gave the rangers a few hundred million in incentives not 30 years after giving them incentives for the first stadium.

[josh]

Dude. Here is your DIRECT QUOTE (which I also quoted in that response:




And by the way, you make it sound like towns like Carrollton and Frisco are the same as Luther or Else Reno or something. OKC and Tulsa would KILL to have some of the retail and economic development happening in backwaters of the Dallas metroplex.

Should Dallas itself be doing retail incentives? Probably not. It's a top five market in the U.S., and has disproportionate concentrated disposable income. OKC ain't Dallas. Neither, by the way is Fort Worth (who DOES use retail incentives) or Austin. Or San Antonio. If you're comparing OKC to Dallas you'd might as well compare us to NYC or San Francisco.

But that is NOT what you were doing. You very clearly suggested that in Texas, retail incentives were pretty much only happening in El Paso, Corpus and the Rio Grande Valley. Which is clearly BS.

I mean, are you saying I read your comment wrong? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

No offense, but it’s obvious you and your other handle that’s DMing me are taking this way too serious. In the quote you quoted, I said “I see” because that was what I have seen with my own eyes. I never said it was the only places or that Texas was immune for it besides those three cities. If you have such an inferiority complex that you need to attack me because you decided to misinterpret what I said, then that’s on you.

I apologize if I don’t follow the north Texas suburbs as closing as you’d like me to do that I could be as informed as you’d like me to when I make a personal claim that isn’t absolute andvthat is incredibly harmless, to 99.9% of the existing population.

Also, where did I state in anything I posted that Dallas or Texas don’t use incentives for corporations or urban development? Every large city/metropolitan area does so. Hell, Amazon was just able to get hundreds cities to do it just relatively recently.

San Antonio uses incentives all the time for corporations and urban development. San Antonio just recently used 8 million to have a local company relocate from the suburbs to a new 10 story office building under construction in the Pearl area near downtown in the urban core.

But we we’rent talking about corporate incentives or developmental incentives, were we? No, we were talking about Costco.

With that all said, you may choose to continue the debate but that was my piece and I will no longer engage you in this.

[Urbanized]

Pete, I know you can see IP addresses. Please consider doing everyone a favor and telling this person I’m not DMing him from a different handle (or my own, for that matter). It’s a bizarre claim and I believe it should be publicly set straight.

As far as what you said and what you didn’t say josh, I’ll let the quotes stand on their own merit. Everyone can see them and make their own interpretation.

Regarding industrial and non-retail incentives, just to clear things up for you and anyone reading, I wasn't suggesting you made any remarks about them. My inclusion of those was part of a larger conversation that exists on this board regarding incentives of all types. Since I get the impression you rarely stray very far from the Dallas thread, it’s understandable that you might not know about this conversation, but I’ll promise you that most everyone here knew why I mentioned it. I’ll agree though, that had nothing to do with you.

Regarding your comments about inferiority complexes and whatever else, well, I guess I’d just call those puzzling and possibly...revealing..? Disagreement is not a personal attack. And neither is correcting provably incorrect statements.

[josh]

Did you mean San Antonio thread? I live I San Antonio and started the San Antonio thread. I’ve pribably gone into the Dallas thread twice, maybe. I’m not a big DFW fan, btw.