Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

[Plutonic Panda]

They are two separate modes of transportation and it is people that share you mentality that makes me more anti-transit than I should be.

[baralheia]

The Oklahoma Sub that extends from OKC down to Lawton is not in as good of shape as the Sooner Sub up to Tulsa. Many parts of the line are speed-restricted down to 10mph, due to lack of higher maintenance standards, and would require some pretty significant funding to rehabilitate to at least Class III standards. To add insult to injury, at this point, it's looking doubtful that the Eastern Flyer project, as originally envisioned, will actually happen; the operator that was selected, Iowa Pacific, reportedly barely has the money to keep their operations going, and the owner of the Sooner Sub, WATCO, is reportedly focusing more heavily on maintaining and growing their freight business over passenger or excursion projects. Various reports from a few Facebook groups run by Passenger Rail Oklahoma make it sound increasingly likely that WATCO may be planning to simply forefit the penalty funds for failing to comply with the passenger rail clause of the sale contract, currently held in escrow; it's a slap-on-the-wrist penalty of only a few million dollars. That said, WATCO is also reportedly looking for a new passenger operator to partner with for this project, so... we'll just have to see. But without some significant political will and funding - both at the local and state level, as well as with some federal funding mixed in - I'm starting to be pessimistic as to whether or not we'll actually see the Tulsa train come to fruition, much less expanding it down to Lawton.

I still hold out hope, however - a Lawton-OKC-Tulsa passenger train would connect the three largest metropolitan areas in the State and, to my mind, makes a TON of sense. Sufficient frequency (at least 2x a day in each direction) would ensure success of the train, too. But a lot of work still lies ahead to make that dream come true.

[Plutonic Panda]

Well your post is better than yet another anti-car nutjob trying to take jabs at me when I'm vocally supporting and trying to contribute information I come across here. Thank you.

[OKC_on_mines]

i was so elated about this. I heard on the local news outlets here that Amtrak and ODOT were asking for citizen input on some survey. I think it was due on August 10th. Did you guys participate or hear about it?

After seeing how the Tulsa route might be pushed back again in a bit bummed out. Would love to see routes from OKC to Kansas City but would also feel it a priority to connect to Tulsa from OKC as well.

[rte66man]

i was so elated about this. I heard on the local news outlets here that Amtrak and ODOT were asking for citizen input on some survey. I think it was due on August 10th. Did you guys participate or hear about it?

After seeing how the Tulsa route might be pushed back again in a bit bummed out. Would love to see routes from OKC to Kansas City but would also feel it a priority to connect to Tulsa from OKC as well.

https://ok.gov/triton/modules/newsro...ticle_id=34598

[baralheia]

All, just a heads-up: The interim study hosted by Representatives Monroe Nichols and Forrest Bennett on passenger rail expansion and funding (#17-107) is tomorrow - Wednesday, 06 September 2017, at the state capitol. They had to move to a different room; it's now in Room 432A. If you're on Facebook, more information can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/events/870955263055629/

[shawnw]

Went to this meeting today. Liked what i heard. Not a ton of new info. Was just good to hear that most folks at the capitol are trying to make things happen with rail transit in general, but in particular with OKC-Newton/KC and OKC-Tulsa. I was surprised to hear the ODOT ED so supportive of rail, but he made a good point about them not spending on rail to this point because the legislature has to provide them the mechanism to do so (although then someone else posted a law from like 1996 saying they already can).

[warreng88]

Interim study on passenger rail picks up momentum

By: Catherine Sweeney The Journal Record October 3, 2017

OKLAHOMA CITY – Discussions about passenger rail in Oklahoma turned to practical matters of speed and money Tuesday when a Tulsa lawmaker brought a contractor to the state Capitol to talk numbers.

Government officials, economic developers and industry experts have been talking about high-speed rail options for months. Argument points are nearly as predictable as a train schedule: Supporters say the transportation could help the state in several ways, but opponents point out that it’s difficult to estimate costs and financing.

State Sen. Kevin Matthews, D-Tulsa, sponsored an interim study on the topic that was presented Tuesday to the Senate Transportation Committee. Matthews brought general contractor Jon McGrath to the meeting because he has worked in the rail industry for decades. McGrath discussed how he would recommend implementing a high-speed rail system between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, which residents could use to get to work, basketball games at the Chesapeake Arena and concerts at the Bank of Oklahoma Center.

Matthews said Oklahoma is lagging other states across the country, particularly those with larger cities, which have already embraced passenger rail.

“I don’t think we should continue to be the last state to implement technology,” he said.

An Oklahoma City-Tulsa route would be a key step in integrating Oklahoma into Amtrak’s nationwide framework, plugging the region into hubs in the Dallas and Kansas metros. Oklahoma City is already attached to Dallas via the Heartland Flyer; riders can take connecting trains from Dallas to other Texas metros. A Tulsa extension could take riders to Newton, Kansas, where trains run to the other major Midwestern towns such as St. Louis and Chicago. The Amtrak system has connections to both coasts.

The first step would be connecting Oklahoma’s two largest metros, said McGrath, president of railroad consulting firm McGrath LLC. Passenger rail between the two would increase the quality of life in both areas, alleviate road congestion and promote healthier lifestyles.

He also said that if the rail system met the national standard, they could travel as quickly as 220 mph. That would make Oklahoma City-Tulsa trips take less than half an hour.

The total project would likely cost between $2 billion and $3 billion, he said, but a public-private partnership could shift most of that cost to a contractor. He recommended placing the burden of securing rights of way for the route on the government and leaving the rest to private entities.

Although Oklahoma already has a rail system running from Oklahoma City to Tulsa, McGrath recommended against using it. He said the existing track has nearly 150 curves, and for a train to hit is maximum speed, it needs a straight trajectory. Instead, he said, officials should build a line along Interstate 44.

He also said it would be best to elevate the railway, essentially placing it on a bridge so that it doesn’t intersect with road traffic. Traffic warning lights and crossing gates wouldn’t be of much use for a train traveling at more than 200 mph, he said.

“The public’s not used to that, and you can’t always see it,” he said.

Oklahoma Secretary of Transportation Mike Patterson said passenger rail would have limited benefit in the short-term because fewer than 200 people would be on the train at a time, a negligible difference to highway traffic that typically carries 80,000 automobiles per day.

“Based on our studies, it doesn’t make that much impact,” he said. “What it will do is help mitigate any future expansion requirements.”

As both cities grow larger and more interconnected, demand for transportation between them will continue to grow, he said. Diverting people early could help cut down the need for new construction projects.

He said that the rail option would provide another benefit as well.

“There are some people who prefer to travel by rail, either because they don’t want to drive or they can’t drive,” he said.

[Plutonic Panda]

http://kmuw.org/post/newton-poised-b...-expands-north

[Plutonic Panda]

Amtrak is further into a study for the Heartland Flyer Ext. to Newton.

http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_...nd-flyer-route

[warreng88]

With new budget, Heartland Flyer extension back on track

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record March 23, 2018

OKLAHOMA CITY – Congressional commitment to put nearly $2 billion into Amtrak in the new budget is good reason to believe a Heartland Flyer extension into Kansas might soon be realized, said Evan Stair, president of the nonprofit Passenger Rail Oklahoma organization.

The omnibus spending bill signed Friday by President Donald Trump follows on the heels of an announcement by the Kansas Department of Transportation that Amtrak is definitely moving forward with a feasibility study. Momentum seems to be building to a critical level after many years of effort, Stair said.

“I think this is looking really good now,” Stair said. “I think there’s an understanding, in conversations I’ve had with Amtrak and ODOT (Oklahoma’s transportation department) that they know they really need to extend this line into Kansas.”

Amtrak’s rail network primarily radiates out of Chicago, passing through Newton, Kansas, on the north side of Oklahoma and into Dallas-Fort Worth to the south. Amtrak’s Heartland Flyer connects Oklahoma City to Fort Worth, but the line falls far short of connecting to Newton and Wichita. Stair said that extension would fill a corridor gap that would allow Oklahomans to connect more directly to Chicago, saving at least 24 hours round-trip to current alternative routes.

According to the Rail Passenger Association’s analysis of Amtrak data, the Heartland Flyer carried 71,340 coach-class passengers in 2017 for an average trip of 175 miles. The most common connection was between Fort Worth and Oklahoma City.

Stair and other proponents of an extension such as Wichita City Council member Pete Meitzner said the economic potential and comparative investment is too obvious to be ignored. A 2010 study on intercity passenger transit systems at the Texas Transportation Institute cited the Heartland Flyer’s success: Passengers spent about $18 million annually on lodging, meals, shopping and entertainment on their trips, the study found. Passenger spending in communities along the route ranged from around $50 per passenger in Pauls Valley to $170 per passenger in Fort Worth. Passenger spending in Oklahoma City and Norman was computed to be around $120 per passenger, while Gainesville was slightly over $100 and Ardmore slightly under $90 per passenger.

“Connecting these two states and all the traffic it would generate, up into Newton and more long-distance routes, without any lakes or mountains or bridgework – it’s the lowest hanging fruit in Amtrak’s perspective for development,” Meitzner said. “Compared with other projects … this one is not going to take a lot of work or a lot of money.”

[baralheia]

In more good news for the potential Heartland Flyer extension: Wichita is also looking at applying for a Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements grant that could fund a large portion of the work needed to extend the Heartland Flyer north through Wichita. https://www.kfdi.com/news/city-looks...amtrak-service

[catch22]

Very promising news. I hope this comes to fruition.

[Plutonic Panda]

The Heartland Flyer is in good shape to receive a much needed expansion and upgrades to it's existing service. I hope new trains are considered as the current ones are quite old but I won't be complaining if we at least get an expansion to Newton.

I know Phialpha mentioned upthread Wichita is getting a big upgrade so now all that is needed for them is track upgrades. Edmond will need a completely new station built from scratch and I know Edmond is wanting a multimodal transit hub downtown with a pedestrian bridge over the tracks anyways so maybe that could fast tracked if this happens sooner rather than later. Guthrie's will need a bit of TLC. I don't know much about the other towns that have proposed stops(Perry, Ponca City, and Ark City) would be willing to invest in their stations.

Has anyone heard anything about the proposed stop at Winstar? It would need a completely new station if I remember right. They need more track improvements in several areas to try and shave off at least 30-40 minutes. The ride surprisingly doesn't take much longer than the drive, being about an hour longer. So even shaving 20 minutes off would be nice.

[Johnb911]

Question for people more knowledgeable than me: If this connection is built, how realistic is it really to take a train from OKC to Chicago? I guess, more specifically, for pleasure. I was in Topeka this past weekend and talking to some friends from high school, and one mentioned he'll take the train to Chicago. From there it's a 10 hour trip, $50 both ways. What kind of time are we talking about adding onto that? Another 5 hours? Another $35 each way? The train in Topeka leaves at 5 am. Would the whole timetable be rearranged or would you be stuck hanging out from 10 to midnight in Newton KS waiting for your connection?

Hope I'm not sounding negative. I love the idea, just wondering how the details would all be worked out, and if people more in the know thought that the demand would actually exist to make it work.

[Richard at Remax]

My mother takes the southwest chief all the time. Both east/west trains comes through newton, ks in the 2-3am hour. Eastbound departs Newton at 2:59am. A coach seat from Newton, KS to Chicago is $68 and ride is 12 hours 16min. The northbound train ends in okc around ~9:30pm. So if it continued northbound it would get into Newton in the 1am-2am range. As for pricing I would probably make it an even $100 from OKC to Chicago in coach and would probably take around 18 hours total.

[shawnw]

My understanding from the one or two meetings on the matter I've attended is that a northbound trip from OKC even just to KC would be an "overnight" trip.

[d-usa]

I'm guessing that the train would leave and arrive here in coordination with the current route to Texas. So it would head north around 9:45 PM and get here around 8:15 AM.

[Johnb911]

Thanks for the info. 18 hours seems like a barrier, for us at least. Not that much more expensive to grab a southwest flight and use public transportation once you get there. Of course you have to weigh the extra cost vs the time savings. Just seems like spending 36 hours round trip to get to Chicago is a lot of hours.

I suppose if you're comparing taking the train to driving, then that's an easier decision. 12 hours is more comparable than 18. Plus you're spending gas money and you don't get to relax, have a drink, whatever if you're operating a motor vehicle.

[d-usa]

Those are the routes where lack of high-speed rail really stands out.

Personally, I won’t ride on any trains until Positive Train Control is finally implemented across the route.

[baralheia]

Question for people more knowledgeable than me: If this connection is built, how realistic is it really to take a train from OKC to Chicago? I guess, more specifically, for pleasure. I was in Topeka this past weekend and talking to some friends from high school, and one mentioned he'll take the train to Chicago. From there it's a 10 hour trip, $50 both ways. What kind of time are we talking about adding onto that? Another 5 hours? Another $35 each way? The train in Topeka leaves at 5 am. Would the whole timetable be rearranged or would you be stuck hanging out from 10 to midnight in Newton KS waiting for your connection?

Hope I'm not sounding negative. I love the idea, just wondering how the details would all be worked out, and if people more in the know thought that the demand would actually exist to make it work.

It's quite realistic, as long as you do not mind sleeping on the train; it would be an overnighter. Sleeping in coach isn't bad, but accommodations in a sleeper car, such as a roomette, are a lot more comfortable since you can lay totally flat. Either way though, sleeping on the train is not difficult at all. The trip actually can be made today, via a charter bus between Oklahoma City (OKC) and Newton, KS (NEW), fully booked through Amtrak. The bus leaves OKC at 10:40pm and arrives in NEW at 2:15am, at which point you'd wait in the station building for the #4 Southwest Chief to arrive. The scheduled departure from NEW is 2:59am, and then you'd arrive at Chicago Union Station (CHI) at 3:15pm the next day. The total trip time today is 16 hours, 35 minutes; I expect that when the Heartland Flyer is extended to NEW and replaces the bus, the overall trip time and scheduled stops will still be similar. Most of that time will be overnight though, so it won't feel as long, and even with the transfer in NEW it's still less hassle than flying and the seats are WAY roomier and more comfortable.

The lowest fare I see for this trip, looking several months in advance, is $137 one-way in Coach, so not bad. TOP - CHI is $81 for the same "Value" fare class. (TOP - CHI's absolute lowest fare class - "Saver" - appears to be $65, for reference, but that's for a non-refundable ticket that isn't offered on the Heartland Flyer route and is only available if booked online more than 14 days in advance)

[BoulderSooner]

Or for random dates in June I could leave my house at 7am catch an 8:05am flight to Chicago and land at 10am coming back direct for 212 round trip. Spend less than 30 on parking (or 2 10 buck Uber’s).

And save money. I don’t under stand how flying is a “hassle”. On direct routes.

So less money sleeping in my own bed and total travel time is less than 6 hours door to door.

Or. 36 hours door to door and more money and sleeping 2 nights in a coach seat on a train.

That doesn’t compute

[Johnb911]

Yep, when compared to flying, it doesn't really make sense, at least for us. If there was a high speed option that might make more sense. If you positively couldn't fly for whatever reason, then I would look more closely at the train.

As an aside, I tried to look up getting from OKC to KC via train once, and it was a hilarious 36 hour journey, going south to Fort Worth, over to Houston, to New Orleans, up through St Louis to Chicago and then down to KC. Might not have all those details correct but it was something hilarious like that.

[Ross MacLochness]

I would love to take the train to Chicago for the experience of seeing the country in a new way but I wouldn't use it as a means of efficient travel.

[baralheia]

Or for random dates in June I could leave my house at 7am catch an 8:05am flight to Chicago and land at 10am coming back direct for 212 round trip. Spend less than 30 on parking (or 2 10 buck Uber’s).

And save money. I don’t under stand how flying is a “hassle”. On direct routes.

So less money sleeping in my own bed and total travel time is less than 6 hours door to door.

Or. 36 hours door to door and more money and sleeping 2 nights in a coach seat on a train.

That doesn’t compute

The reason it does compute for me is because I'm a bigger guy that does not easily fit in airline seats, and even when I did when I was younger, I never enjoyed dealing with security, the baggage carousel, or constant noise, or the way cabin air pressure makes me feel. On the train, the seats are bigger, bathrooms are bigger, you don't have to deal with the security craziness, the train is much quieter, there is much more opportunity to get up and move around, and even get off the train mid journey at stops where there's an extended stop. You can take much, much more baggage with you for no additional charge as well - my large 27" suitcase qualifies as a carry on, and I am allowed 2 of them on Amtrak, in addition to two personal bags like backpacks, etc. The scenery is much better too, in my opinion. Now, all of that said, that's why it makes sense to me, but I fully recognize that others may not share those issues so it's not gonna make sense for everyone. It just depends on what you want to do.

Also keep in mind that we're specifically talking about traveling to Chicago here; when my husband and I went to Tucson for Thanksgiving last year, two round-trip tickets with first-class sleeper accommodations ended up being cheaper than flying out there in coach when I booked. That's certainly not always the case, but there are definitely many times where Amtrak is cheaper than flying. Again, YMMV.