Quail Springs Mall

[Urbanized]

The issue is that consumer tastes have shifted away from enclosed malls nationwide. The industry is in free-fall; new enclosed malls are essentially not being built at all and properties are shuttering all over the country at a rapid clip. OKC is simply behind the curve on this, in part because of chronic slow growth in more modern shopping options. That’s changing though, and it will only spell bad news for traditional enclosed malls here.

The strong emergence of online buying has also been tough on malls.

Penn Square benefits from an incredible location, nearby housing density, excellent product mix (thanks to limited competitive upscale retail centers), and that property will chug along for a while yet, though if the Triangle ever takes shape as originally proposed I’d expect it to take some wind out of PSM’s sails.

Quail on the other hand is in trouble I expect. When Chisholm Creek is fully realized and other similar developments inevitably follow I think it will eventually follow Crossroads into the dustbin.

[Pete]

Quail was in trouble the day it opened.

It was built way, way before there was much of anything out there and decades later the majority of the land around it is still empty.

Possibly the biggest (lack of) planning blunder in the history of OKC and that is saying something.

[Urbanized]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.191f8b143da4

http://time.com/4865957/death-and-life-shopping-mall/

[Urbanized]

Quail was in trouble the day it opened.

It was built way, way before there was much of anything out there and decades later the majority of the land around it is still empty.

Possibly the biggest (lack of) planning blunder in the history of OKC and that is saying something.

Yep. By the way if you read the second link I posted above, you’ll see that the guy who essentially invented the enclosed shopping mall in the 1950s disavowed what they turned into, which didn’t match his original vision. He wanted malls to be town centers to an extent, with office, housing schools etc all connected. Very similar in concept to the better developed “town centers” of today, except inward-facing and indoors.

One of the things mentioned in one of the articles I found interesting to think about: the rise of malls happened when many people didn’t have air conditioning in their homes, and they became a hospitable hangout. I think you can take that one further and consider that many people also didn’t have A/C in their cars until maybe 30 years ago ago. Driving from one place to another to shop carried a heavy discomfort penalty. Much better to land in one air conditioned place and stay there. It’s not nearly so bad these days since pretty much every car has A/C.

[Pete]

^

One of the main reasons I used to go to Shepherd Mall (and French Market Mall and Northpark Mall) was that you could queue for movies in climae-controlled comfort.

It wasn't that long ago that many theaters required you to line up outside while you waited for the biggest blockbuster.

[bchris02]

Quail Springs Mall is in trouble for no other reason than its management is out of touch with current consumer tastes and especially what it takes to do an enclosed mall successfully in 2018. The area around QSM is one of the best suburban areas in OKC. The mall should be doing better than it is. It's not suffering from declining demographics in the surrounding neighborhoods like Crossroads did in the early 2000s.

[jn1780]

Quail Springs Mall is in trouble for no other reason than its management is out of touch with current consumer tastes and especially what it takes to do an enclosed mall successfully in 2018. The area around QSM is one of the best suburban areas in OKC. The mall should be doing better than it is. It's not suffering from declining demographics in the surrounding neighborhoods like Crossroads did in the early 2000s.

No, but there is a lot of surrounding competition with lots more on the way. I think the indoor mall concept is outdated simply for the reason that people are lazier and don't want to haul what they buy around. Maybe if malls actually became what they were originally envisioned people would have more of a reason to go.

[Urbanized]

Quail Springs Mall is in trouble for no other reason than its management is out of touch with current consumer tastes and especially what it takes to do an enclosed mall successfully in 2018. The area around QSM is one of the best suburban areas in OKC. The mall should be doing better than it is. It's not suffering from declining demographics in the surrounding neighborhoods like Crossroads did in the early 2000s.

Nobody suggested anything about declining demographics. Only changing consumer tastes. It’s a pretty well-documented national trend; it’s just that OKC is late in following it. The only malls doing well nationally tend to be in dense areas with favorable demographics, and specifically catering to upscale buyers. The only mall in OKC that (sort of) fits the bill is PSM.

[Geographer]

Nobody suggested anything about declining demographics. Only changing consumer tastes. It’s a pretty well-documented national trend; it’s just that OKC is late in following it. The only malls doing well nationally tend to be in dense areas with favorable demographics, and specifically catering to upscale buyers. The only mall in OKC that (sort of) fits the bill is PSM.

This is true of Dallas/Fort Worth as well....the only mall that's REALLY doing well (and will continue to do well over the long haul) is Northpark Mall...and that's because it's near some of the wealthiest zip codes in Texas and across the road from a light rail station.

The other malls in D/FW like Grapevine Mills, Valley View, Hulen, Ridgmar, and to a lesser extent thus far, Stonebriar Mall and the Parks Mall are on the decline or have completed the tumble already.

[Urbanized]

I just this morning read a great article on the success of mall retrofits in Canada right now (sorry, should have grabbed a link). The thing I found most interesting is that it wasn’t necessarily advocating for repurposing a la Shepherd Mall but instead showed that malls were having success by redeveloping their massive parking lots with office and especially housing, and that by doing so they were stabilizing prospects for the retailers, putting people in regular proximity, and even better inviting people from surrounding neighborhoods by making the connection walkable.

It also echoed Pete’s comment that many malls built in farmer’s fields on highways (like Quail) were complete disasters from a planning perspective, in retrospect. It blamed many of the thousands of mall failures on land use rather than changes in consumer buying habits.

[oklip955]

The reasons why I no longer shop at a mail is that for so many years they catered to the teens. If you where an older woman it was hard to find stuff. With the exception of like Dillards or so extend JC Penny most of the stuff was way too young for my taste. No fun stores = no shopping. I used to go to Sears for tools and that was about it.

[bchris02]

The reasons why I no longer shop at a mail is that for so many years they catered to the teens. If you where an older woman it was hard to find stuff. With the exception of like Dillards or so extend JC Penny most of the stuff was way too young for my taste. No fun stores = no shopping. I used to go to Sears for tools and that was about it.

And that's where Quail Springs Mall is failing. They are targeting that middle class family/teen demographic that was the bread and butter of suburban malls twenty years ago. Penn Square is a little more upscale which is why it's doing well. Go to any major city and it's the same story. Difference is that other cities seem to have an easier time attracting upscale retailers than OKC does.

What Quail Springs Mall needs is a remodel and a few more upscale new-to-market tenants. It would also be beneficial for them to give the theater a face lift as it's starting to become a little dated. If Warren ever builds their planned north side theater, that will spell trouble for the Quail Springs AMC.

As for competition, everything I've seen thus far as that Chisholm Creek is primarily bars/restaurants and destinations like TopGolf and iFly. It doesn't seem like a lot of traditional retail is going in there. That could change, but that's what it seems like at this point.

[bchris02]

This is true of Dallas/Fort Worth as well....the only mall that's REALLY doing well (and will continue to do well over the long haul) is Northpark Mall...and that's because it's near some of the wealthiest zip codes in Texas and across the road from a light rail station.

Unless it's taken a sharp downward turn in the past couple of years since I've been there, I would say the Galleria is also doing pretty well.

[Rover]

What seems to be interesting is that most of the middle aged and older patrons of QSM I know quit going there 10 years ago because of all the teenagers roaming around. Now those teens are millenials and they no longer want to go there. LOL.

I also thought it interesting in the article posted (link) a little while back from Time indicated that the first malls were designed to create density, a sense of community, walkability, etc. And now they evolved the opposite way. Guess all the thought on urbanism doesn't pan out but every generation is convinced their way is the ultimate way. LOL.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
The point they were making was that very few were built the way the original developer intended; including the density, housing, etc. Instead subsequent developers cherry picked the easy part and fastest route to cash, which was plopping a shopping center into a farmer's field and screw all of the rest of that nonsense. But those are the ones which are first to pay the price of that very disposable style of development.

This is very similar to the way that some architectural ideas over the years were bastardized in the name of easy profit, for instance Frank Lloyd Wright's Usonian houses, which unwittingly became the template for cheap, assembly line ranch houses in a lot of mediocre suburbs.

[Rover]

Seems like they were built exactly as intended but didn’t induce the kind of other development as expected. The original designer didn’t design in the rest of the developments but expected it.

[Geographer]

Unless it's taken a sharp downward turn in the past couple of years since I've been there, I would say the Galleria is also doing pretty well.

Forgot about the Galleria...thanks.

The Galleria is a little unique (and gets at what Urbanized was saying a bit) in that it has multiple uses other than just strictly retail. You have a mix of hotel and office in the Galleria complex as well.

[ourulz2000]

The other malls in D/FW like Grapevine Mills, Valley View, Hulen, Ridgmar, and to a lesser extent thus far, Stonebriar Mall and the Parks Mall are on the decline or have completed the tumble already.

Grapevine Mills is an outlet mall**. Hulen, Ridgemar and Valley View are ghetto malls. Stonebriar is the 4th largest mall in TX and in the fastest growing city in USA. Parks & the Galleria still doing fine and so is Willow Bend.
DFW has 3 major outlets now though at Texas Motor Speedway, Allen, and Grand Prairie plus all of what Dallas has to offer with Mockingbird Station, West Village, Highland Village.

[Pete]

One of the big issues about malls and the lack of mixed-use is that mall developers and owners are almost universally only experienced in retail development.

Simon (Penn Square), General Growth Properties (Quail) and Macerich... Retail is about all they know and it seems their latest solution is always somehow retail / theater / restaurant oriented.

Macerich is the big owner out in California and they have spent tons of money trying to reinvent most their malls. And yet, their solution always seems to be more and more retail, just a different kind.

[Rover]

The Curve wanted to develop multi-family housing as part of its dense development and is now fighting a legal battle over it.

[onthestrip]

One of the big issues about malls and the lack of mixed-use is that mall developers and owners are almost universally only experienced in retail development.

Simon (Penn Square), General Growth Properties (Quail) and Macerich... Retail is about all they know and it seems their latest solution is always somehow retail / theater / restaurant oriented.

Macerich is the big owner out in California and they have spent tons of money trying to reinvent most their malls. And yet, their solution always seems to be more and more retail, just a different kind.

And here Edmond had a prominent mall developer looking to actually build a mixed use development, shopping with apartment housing, and Edmond residents emphatically said no. Guess they are fine with continuing to send a lot of their retail dollars to OKC.

[bchris02]

The Curve wanted to develop multi-family housing as part of its dense development and is now fighting a legal battle over it.

It's frustrating that there have been so many developers who have wanted to raise the retail bar in OKC yet every one of them has faced fierce NIMBY opposition. The most baffling one is the Classen Curve expansion.

[Pete]

The Curve wanted to develop multi-family housing as part of its dense development and is now fighting a legal battle over it.

I seriously doubt anyone would object to adding residential, office or much of anything else to Quail Springs Mall, especially since it is completely surrounded by the same.

And I'll bet that the Classen Curve project gets done after they move past the litigation.

[bchris02]

And I'll bet that the Classen Curve project gets done after they move past the litigation.

Do you know how much longer it will be? It's probably been 4-5 years at this point since that was announced.

[Pete]

Do you know how much longer it will be? It's probably been 4-5 years at this point since that was announced.

I don't think they are in a huge rush. They've been busy trying to expand and lease up both Nichols Hills Plaza and Classen Curve.

They've signed a ton of new deals.

BTW, the lawsuit was filed in December of 2015, so it's barely been 2 years.