OKC Boulevard

[king183]

This kind of thinking is why our legislature is so unprepared to lead OK into modern times. Just lazy thinking and no leadership. Let’s get him voted out. He doesn’t get it.

Lazy thinking is a perfect way to describe it. Too many in the legislature have no interest critically thinking through issues, and this is a perfect example of it. Forrest is a very nice guy who, unfortunately, often doesn't think for himself.

[Anonymous.]

The only time someone "passing through" is going to decide to take the Boulevard instead of continuing on I-40 is if there is a wreck or something that they can bypass. This only further proves that this Boulevard wasn't built for the people who are actually going to interact with it.

[LocoAko]

http://newsok.com/article/5574882?ut...areBar-Twitter

“There was a lot of conversation during the design process that they did not want the median,” Wenger said. “They didn’t want it to be in competition with the park. They wanted to make sure it was very passable so pedestrians did not have to cross over the top (of the median).”

Who thinks the road median will "compete" with the park? What in the world??? Why not include a wide sidewalk cut out of the median like so many other cities do on their main thoroughfares? And, of course, the real irony of forcing bikes to share the sidewalk with people is that if the sidewalks are as busy as the renderings would have us believe they will be, effective cycling will be difficult if not impossible.

[HangryHippo]

Hiring Hargreaves appears to have been a serious miscalculation on the part of the city (if they were, in fact, involved in this).

[dankrutka]

All the comments coming out on the boulevard decisions are really absurd. They want bicyclists riding on sidewalks in the core of the city?!? Is this 1970s planning? No one will take responsibility for the decisions either. This has been an epic failure every step of the way. It's time for the City of OKC to find new leadership from people who understand what makes cities great.

[Pete]

^

So who is they?

Well, Wenger couldn’t provide with any names, other than this was an outcome from discussions among the various project consultants (park, streetcar, convention center).

This is just Wenger and city staff bs-ing.

Happens all the time which is one of the reason I harp on hard reports on various projects that show original scope, time and budget and then contrast that to what actually gets delivered.

It's the job of City Council to demand such accountability but they provide zero check or balance because almost all just go along with what is presented before them without even asking questions.

[Pete]

So I ask – was this another request by the folks at Hargraves? You remember Hargraves, the firm hired by the city to design the park but did nothing with the historic Union Station? They also opposed having the streetcar travel along the boulevard because they hope the street can be closed as part of a hope that the annual Festival of the Arts will be relocated to Scissortail Park. Or maybe you heard how their designs for the lower segment of the park includes no parking, no way to get there?

It’s the firm that is creating an amphitheater and restaurant at the new park, duplicating what we already have at the Myriad Gardens?

This Hargraves ax-grinding has been going for years.

How about holding City Hall and City Council accountable? They have final say-so on everything. In fact, the key players were just on the Oklahoman's Downtown in Review panel.

The Oklahoman is just way too cozy with the people the city entrusts with these oversight responsibilities and it shows up in all their reporting.

[Anonymous.]

This forum and the resources shared through it - is legitimately the only place I can find anything about these leadership and project failures that we keep getting exposed to. The Oklahoman doesn't provide any actual investigating that helps inform the public. The readers there are clueless on everything if you see any of the comments ("Why are we building this stupid trolley? Give this money to the teachers!")

This boulevard is officially a joke and this forum knew it over five years before its construction. I have tons of friends who have no idea what the boulevard is, who took part in the design, and what its purpose is. All they know is "the construction downtown right now is total BS".

[CloudDeckMedia]

From the perspective of a cyclist, if it isn't clear where I'm supposed to ride, then I'll stay in lanes with vehicular traffic and remain clear of pedestrians. This is especially true of a congested urban area such as this one, where cars & bikes move at approximately the same speed, and the increased numbers of pedestrians pose a greater threat to bicyclists (and vice-versa).

If you want to see the hazards of bikes & pedestrians on a shared path, I suggest a visit to Lake Hefner. I know too many people who have been injured in the confluence of bikes, walkers, runners, rollerbladers, strollers and dogs.

[Pete]

This forum and the resources shared through it - is legitimately the only place I can find anything about these leadership and project failures that we keep getting exposed to. The Oklahoman doesn't provide any actual investigating that helps inform the public. The readers there are clueless on everything if you see any of the comments ("Why are we building this stupid trolley? Give this money to the teachers!")

This boulevard is officially a joke and this forum knew it over five years before its construction. I have tons of friends who have no idea what the boulevard is, who took part in the design, and what its purpose is. All they know is "the construction downtown right now is total BS".

Really proud of the fact the "Better Boulevard" movement started here and had at least some impact on this project.

But in the end, City Hall can pretty much do what they want and I have thought for a long time there is not nearly enough accountability on their part.


Think about how every little issue in state and federal government is under the magnifying glass of hundreds and thousands of reporters, all hoping to expose fraud, corruption and incompetence.

Who does that for the City of OKC? All I see is PR about how great everything is and zero independent investigation and research, just repeating what is being told by the very people you are supposed to be watch-dogging.

It's why I've personally taken up several issues even at the risk of being labeled a 'hater'.

[king183]

This forum and the resources shared through it - is legitimately the only place I can find anything about these leadership and project failures that we keep getting exposed to. The Oklahoman doesn't provide any actual investigating that helps inform the public. The readers there are clueless on everything if you see any of the comments ("Why are we building this stupid trolley? Give this money to the teachers!")

This boulevard is officially a joke and this forum knew it over five years before its construction. I have tons of friends who have no idea what the boulevard is, who took part in the design, and what its purpose is. All they know is "the construction downtown right now is total BS".

This is an excellent and underappreciated point. The Oklahoman, the state and the city's, primary source of news is failing at its job to inform the public of issues of importance related to the City of OKC. They've done a great job when it comes to state issues on education, criminal justice, and health, in my opinion. But the coverage of the city is inexplicably bad and vacuous. When I click on headlines related to city information, it's either a puff piece or it's has no information besides the very basics. When major news organizations fail in this manner, the public doesn't understand decisions being made, can't hold leaders accountable, and can't adequately participate in the civic process. I don't know if the reporters at The Oklahoman are lazy (I doubt it) or they want to maintain relationships with city officials (more likely) or they don't have the resources to properly do their jobs (conceivable).

I get so much better information from OKCTalk. It's informative, detailed, and provides previously unknown context. It's now the first place I go when I wake up to read the news related to OKC. I truly wish The Oklahoman were a stronger investigative and reporting entity. If it were, perhaps this Boulevard wouldn't have turned into such a massive mess. Can you imagine how much more of a disaster it would have been without OKCTalk? Oh god.

[Pete]

If people weren't worried about the lack of real reporting on the City before, the recent incident regarding the public incentives for the Omni Hotel is something that was so egregious, it should concern all and bring the bigger issue to the fore. IMO, it is a microcosm of things that have troubled me since I started closely following local issues about 5 years.


Brief summary of the Omni incident:

1. Through the Alliance for Economic Development (a body recently formed which is not subject to state meeting or record laws) the city actively negotiated terms for the Omni convention hotel and those terms had not been previously revealed.

2. I came to understand the terms would be on the agenda for approval for a particular meeting that was scheduled for a Tuesday of the following week.

3. Law dictates that agendas be posted 48 hours in advance, and therefore I knew the deadline for posting would be the previous Friday afternoon.

4. On that Friday I see the agenda hit the City system, immediately find the item regarding the Omni and download the presentation.

5. Quickly perusing it, I put in a call to Cathy O'Connor who heads the Alliance as I had several questions, specifically about the cost to finance the $85 million Omni was requesting so they could receive it before they ever started work.

6. After placing the call I noticed that the Oklahoman had already posted a full story about the Omni and the incentives, complete with interviews. It was clear this story had been written sometime earlier, perhaps days.

7. The Oklahoman's story did not include a cost to finance the $85 million.

8. Cathy O'Connor returned my call and I immediately asked her why she had provided this important civic information to the Oklahoman long before it was made public. She provided no real answer and when I asked if I would be given the same opportunity in the future she said "I don't know" which I took as an indirect way of saying 'no'.

9. I also asked O'Connor about the finance cost and was told, "We have never included that in our presentations" and then when pressed she said she didn't have the exact figure. In attempt to get some sort of perspective on the amount, I asked if the interest would push the total cost to more than $100 million? She said yes but declined to give further specifics.

10. Through Ed Shadid I was able to get a quick and precise answer to that question from the City's finance director. The sum? A staggering $50 million.

11. I went back through my notes and found that exact figure had been discussed in private meetings with the city council; a tactic the City frequently uses to float ideas and business without being subjected to open meeting laws by keeping the meetings below a quorum (I've discussed this tactic with the municipal counselor but that's a whole other tangent and something I may eventually challenge through the legal system at a later time). Cathy O'Connor was the one who had provided that precise $50 million figure in the small-group council meetings several weeks before.

12. I report the $50 million additional cost to taxpayers but the Oklahoman's story was already out and none of the other local outlets reported financing costs.

13. Subsequent reports by the Oklahoman have only mentioned the $85 million figure, not the full $135 million including interest.


This is a big deal and IMO clearly demonstrates an intentional effort to deceive the public, mainly by the city but the Oklahoman has been complicit as well.


Here is the underlying point: How would anyone know if something very bad was happening at City Hall? Not saying there is, just that there is no way we wold know. And I've posed that question to many civic leaders and they have all agreed.

This is a bad situation for a functioning democracy.

[jerrywall]

The Oklahoman is just way too cozy with the people the city entrusts with these oversight responsibilities and it shows up in all their reporting.

I'm sure this is no surprise, but I know from a friend who works for the Oklahoman that this frustration is shared by many of the reporters. They operate with a strong amount of editorial control.

[Pete]

I'm sure this is no surprise, but I know from a friend who works for the Oklahoman that this frustration is shared by many of the reporters. They operate with a strong amount of editorial control.

I also know that some reporters there use that as a blanket excuse for not doing their job properly.

And if it's such a draconian environment, then exercise some integrity and stop contributing to a very unethical journalistic process and leave.


Don't mean to be harsh but I've been under the opinion that that excuse is a huge rationalization for continuing to work there while they keep cashing their paychecks.

[jerrywall]

I don't disagree and was not offering it up as an excuse, but more of an aknowledgement of how the Oklahoman operates. As for moving on, well, the post journalism career path is typically Starbucks so I'm a little more sympathetic there. I mean, in Oklahoma where is a reporter going to go? The Lost Ogle?

[Pete]

I don't disagree and was not offering it up as an excuse, but more of an aknowledgement of how the Oklahoman operates. As for moving on, well, the post journalism career path is typically Starbucks so I'm a little more sympathetic there. I mean, in Oklahoma where is a reporter going to go? The Lost Ogle?

Yes, The Lost Ogle. Or OKCTalk, Red Dirt Report, the Gazette, Journal Record, Free Press OKC, or start you own business or do freelance work.

Tons and tons of traditional journalists have lost their jobs over the last couple of decades and few starve to death. I know a bunch and they've all found ways to pay the bills.

It's the nature of the shifting workforce that as some jobs become antiquated there are many more that spring up as a result. I've done a ton of different things in my career.


I don't have any sympathy for someone who continues to take a paycheck from an organization they themselves have declared to be highly unethical. I quit a job over this exact issue.

[dcsooner]

All the comments coming out on the boulevard decisions are really absurd. They want bicyclists riding on sidewalks in the core of the city?!? Is this 1970s planning? No one will take responsibility for the decisions either. This has been an epic failure every step of the way. It's time for the City of OKC to find new leadership from people who understand what makes cities great.

Agree

[bchris02]

All the comments coming out on the boulevard decisions are really absurd. They want bicyclists riding on sidewalks in the core of the city?!? Is this 1970s planning? No one will take responsibility for the decisions either. This has been an epic failure every step of the way. It's time for the City of OKC to find new leadership from people who understand what makes cities great.

I do agree, but I don't think the city of OKC is the problem here. The boulevard is and has always been an ODOT thing. ODOT, as we all know, is still stuck in the 1970s.

[pw405]

If people weren't worried about the lack of real reporting on the City before, the recent incident regarding the public incentives for the Omni Hotel is something that was so egregious, it should concern all and bring the bigger issue to the fore. IMO, it is a microcosm of things that have troubled me since I started closely following local issues about 5 years.


Brief summary of the Omni incident:

1. Through the Alliance for Economic Development (a body recently formed which is not subject to state meeting or record laws) the city actively negotiated terms for the Omni convention hotel and those terms had not been previously revealed.

2. I came to understand the terms would be on the agenda for approval for a particular meeting that was scheduled for a Tuesday of the following week.

3. Law dictates that agendas be posted 48 hours in advance, and therefore I knew the deadline for posting would be the previous Friday afternoon.

4. On that Friday I see the agenda hit the City system, immediately find the item regarding the Omni and download the presentation.

5. Quickly perusing it, I put in a call to Cathy O'Connor who heads the Alliance as I had several questions, specifically about the cost to finance the $85 million Omni was requesting so they could receive it before they ever started work.

6. After placing the call I noticed that the Oklahoman had already posted a full story about the Omni and the incentives, complete with interviews. It was clear this story had been written sometime earlier, perhaps days.

7. The Oklahoman's story did not include a cost to finance the $85 million.

8. Cathy O'Connor returned my call and I immediately asked her why she had provided this important civic information to the Oklahoman long before it was made public. She provided no real answer and when I asked if I would be given the same opportunity in the future she said "I don't know" which I took as an indirect way of saying 'no'.

9. I also asked O'Connor about the finance cost and was told, "We have never included that in our presentations" and then when pressed she said she didn't have the exact figure. In attempt to get some sort of perspective on the amount, I asked if the interest would push the total cost to more than $100 million? She said yes but declined to give further specifics.

10. Through Ed Shadid I was able to get a quick and precise answer to that question from the City's finance director. The sum? A staggering $50 million.

11. I went back through my notes and found that exact figure had been discussed in private meetings with the city council; a tactic the City frequently uses to float ideas and business without being subjected to open meeting laws by keeping the meetings below a quorum (I've discussed this tactic with the municipal counselor but that's a whole other tangent and something I may eventually challenge through the legal system at a later time). Cathy O'Connor was the one who had provided that precise $50 million figure in the small-group council meetings several weeks before.

12. I report the $50 million additional cost to taxpayers but the Oklahoman's story was already out and none of the other local outlets reported financing costs.

13. Subsequent reports by the Oklahoman have only mentioned the $85 million figure, not the full $135 million including interest.


This is a big deal and IMO clearly demonstrates an intentional effort to deceive the public, mainly by the city but the Oklahoman has been complicit as well.


Here is the underlying point: How would anyone know if something very bad was happening at City Hall? Not saying there is, just that there is no way we wold know. And I've posed that question to many civic leaders and they have all agreed.

This is a bad situation for a functioning democracy.

Pete for Governor!!!

[dankrutka]

I do agree, but I don't think the city of OKC is the problem here. The boulevard is and has always been an ODOT thing. ODOT, as we all know, is still stuck in the 1970s.

Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think OKC has control over this project, especially the design elements of grade level parts of the boulevard.

[HOT ROD]

Pete for Governor!!!

No, Pete for Mayor!

[Urbanized]

The people making comments about Forrest Bennett are 100% off-base. He is not one of the long-tenured lazy thinkers you are railing against and want to throw out; he is a very recent addition at the capitol, a SCHOOLTEACHER who came to the capitol for the same reasons: to oust the old stuck-in-the-mud thinking. He is a major proponent of education and...TRANSIT. If fact, he puts his money where his mouth is and RIDES THE CITY BUS TO WORK DAILY. The comments he made about compromise were completely political in nature, because occasionally you have to pick which hill you are willing to die on. That is an unfortunate reality.

[Pete]

The people making comments about Forrest Bennett are 100% off-base. He is not one of the long-tenured lazy thinkers you are railing against and want to throw out; he is a very recent addition at the capitol, a SCHOOLTEACHER who came to the capitol for the same reasons: to oust the old stuck-in-the-mud thinking. He is a major proponent of education and...TRANSIT. If fact, he puts his money where his mouth is and RIDES THE CITY BUS TO WORK DAILY. The comments he made about compromise were completely political in nature, because occasionally you have to pick which hill you are willing to die on. That is an unfortunate reality.

I was going to say something similar.

I've been really impressed with Forrest and his comments were about 'compromise', meaning he advocated for all the things being discussed here but in the end the city is the one making the final decisions, even though this is an ODOT project.

[catch22]

Once the city has the "keys" we can fight for some changes, most really involve spray-sanding off some paint and applying new paint. It's really not the end of the world. One change I would like the city do ASAP is install a midblock crosswalk similar to what is on Sheridan in front of Devon,

[Rover]

The people making comments about Forrest Bennett are 100% off-base. He is not one of the long-tenured lazy thinkers you are railing against and want to throw out; he is a very recent addition at the capitol, a SCHOOLTEACHER who came to the capitol for the same reasons: to oust the old stuck-in-the-mud thinking. He is a major proponent of education and...TRANSIT. If fact, he puts his money where his mouth is and RIDES THE CITY BUS TO WORK DAILY. The comments he made about compromise were completely political in nature, because occasionally you have to pick which hill you are willing to die on. That is an unfortunate reality.

Capitulating doesn't change the culture, its just a part of it. If you run to change things, then show you have the mind and spine to CHANGE THINGS. Riding the bus doesn't prove he understands urban design. His expressed thoughts just send an okay message to same-o same-o thought processes.

I totally respect you as a poster - maybe the most balanced and pragmatic one on the board, but don't accept this stuff as okay.