MAPS III Redux

[floater]

Can someone please explain to me why we need to build ANOTHER university on such a prime piece of land?!?! OCU is only 2 miles north.. Just because it's not downtown doesn't mean it can't be Oklahoma City's university..Last I heard OCU was working on getting back in the NCAA, Why would we need 2 NCAA schools in OKC? I've been looking at a few concept drawings for that area, and that idea is just absurd. Surely OKC can think of something alot better for that area. I like the high rise residential idea....maybe extend the canal...build the high rise on the canal. I don't know, i just think that would be a better start than another university.

Perhaps it’s because we associate universities too much with sports than with academia and cutting-edge research why people have this opinion. Let me clarify again: it would be good if OKC had a smaller university or institute (under 15K students) of technology with topnotch graduate programs. We’re not talking ITT, but more like Georgia Tech.

OKC is still in a position where it needs as much technology knowledge as it can get. The biosciences are not enough in today’s economy. OU and OSU are fine programs, but neither has the respect or standards as a GT, Carnegie Mellon, or Lehigh. And as I explained earlier, companies interested in the research being done at OU or OSU will locate close to campus in Stillwater or Norman, not OKC. For example, look at downtown: the companies leasing space at Presby Research Park are across Lincoln from the programs at the health sciences center.

It’s worth repeating: cutting edge research attracts world-class talent, which produces excellence in a certain field, which can usually be commercialized into a niche sector, which attracts money and suppliers/subsectors, which altogether create higher-paying jobs (usually) and diversifies the economy, not to mention the local reputation. To give it a sports analogy, ask yourself this: why did Roy Williams, Josh Heupel, Courtney Paris, or other out-of-staters with no connection to Oklahoma go to OU? Because the football and women’s basketball teams have national respect; talented people want to go where they can be challenged and collaborate with other talented people to make great things happen.

It’s ideal for this type of institution to locate downtown because it creates energy in terms of streetlife and commercial activity. There will be more young people to shape the neighborhood. Those startup companies will lease downtown office space, show their recruits downtown places, and go to downtown restaurants. Some of their employees will live in downtown housing. You’ll hear something besides business and law talk in downtown cafes. When visitors see a sign of a technology company downtown, they’ll realize we’re more than cowboys and roughnecks. It benefits the school and their offshoots because it’s attractive to recruits, and they are in close proximity to potential business/civic partners. And OKC still needs people magnets downtown.

In these respects, a school will do a lot more for downtown than a riverfront residential highrise. Housing is one part of the local economy I have faith in; if people cluster in an area, housing in all forms will follow. We do have some highrise space the Core to Shore renderings, but we still need to give people reasons to cluster downtown.

[jbrown84]

Your right about that, floater, but once again, we can't just build a reputed research-driven university overnight. That would take decades.

[oudirtypop]

What are your thoughts on moving OSU-OKC's campus to this area south of Bricktown and merging it with a "central" OCCC, like how in Tulsa they have a flagship downtown TCC campus as well as campuses in north, south, and west Tulsa. Also include a design school, culinary school, etc. and create large areas of affordable housing for these students in the areas along the river as outlined in the plan.

BG, you do know that OSU/OKC and OCCC have nothing to do with one another. OCCC wouldn't give up here multi million campus to move to downtown, that would be retarded.

[floater]

Your right about that, floater, but once again, we can't just build a reputed research-driven university overnight. That would take decades.

It's just an idea to float in people's heads and to stress the importance of broadening our technology sector. And the Core-to-Shore plans, it's always stressed, are concepts designed to guide development for the next 20 - 30 years.

[okclee]

it would be good if OKC had a smaller university or institute (under 15K students) of technology with topnotch graduate programs. We’re not talking ITT, but more like Georgia Tech.

OKC is still in a position where it needs as much technology knowledge as it can get. The biosciences are not enough in today’s economy. OU and OSU are fine programs, but neither has the respect or standards as a GT, Carnegie Mellon, or Lehigh. And as I explained earlier, companies interested in the research being done at OU or OSU will locate close to campus in Stillwater or Norman, not OKC. For example, look at downtown: the companies leasing space at Presby Research Park are across Lincoln from the programs at the health sciences center.

It’s worth repeating: cutting edge research attracts world-class talent, which produces excellence in a certain field, which can usually be commercialized into a niche sector, which attracts money and suppliers/subsectors, which altogether create higher-paying jobs (usually) and diversifies the economy, not to mention the local reputation. To give it a sports analogy, ask yourself this: why did Roy Williams, Josh Heupel, Courtney Paris, or other out-of-staters with no connection to Oklahoma go to OU? Because the football and women’s basketball teams have national respect; talented people want to go where they can be challenged and collaborate with other talented people to make great things happen.

It’s ideal for this type of institution to locate downtown because it creates energy in terms of streetlife and commercial activity. There will be more young people to shape the neighborhood. Those startup companies will lease downtown office space, show their recruits downtown places, and go to downtown restaurants. Some of their employees will live in downtown housing. You’ll hear something besides business and law talk in downtown cafes. When visitors see a sign of a technology company downtown, they’ll realize we’re more than cowboys and roughnecks. It benefits the school and their offshoots because it’s attractive to recruits, and they are in close proximity to potential business/civic partners. And OKC still needs people magnets downtown.

In these respects, a school will do a lot more for downtown than a riverfront residential highrise. Housing is one part of the local economy I have faith in; if people cluster in an area, housing in all forms will follow. We do have some highrise space the Core to Shore renderings, but we still need to give people reasons to cluster downtown.

I love this idea, you are absolutely right. I would like to add the idea of an International exchange program along with this Tech / Research Univerisity.

[Easy180]

I'm thinking it may soon be clear Maps III needs to include $250 Million or so for a first class arena along the river

[okclee]

Don't forget about a practice facility too.

[OKC PATROL]

The second university idea might happen- but that U will be a smaller less distingished U. Okahoama City University obviously wins out. Not only does it carry the cities name, the proximity to downtown is a walk away. OCU at the current time is buying up land around it to become a larger soon to be recognised U. OCU is cleaning out old hoods and constructing buildings of research quality that rival schools at OU. The Music and Dance facitlities are of higher quality and larger than at OU which is a research U. The menu for OCU is to dominate all other universities in its area- this includes SNU, OBU, and Oklahoma Christian University. OCU is one of only 3 Us in Olahoma that has a law school. It is already established and wants to separate itself from a pack THAT DOESNT EVEN HAVE A LAW SCHOOL. It makes no sense at all to try to start up another U, because it takes so much time for development.
Many people cant figure out what the name of the REAL private U in town because of all the small Us and many that start with the letter O. This has become a problem that is being resolved by previous alumni/private donations and University outreach. OCU has a huge connection to China and Signapore with Us abroad in these countries. This has given back to the established asian district and obviously OKC. It would be a silly waste with all the Us we already have. SNU is an up and coming also. OCU will be in the NCAA D1 soon, it is only a matter of time until we have a U akin to TU. I feel that OCU will pass TU in student body very soon and could have a campus as large as OU if it could be given more donations and help from the city. OCU is streching to Classen and is trying to go north of its campus. A large Arena could be built NW of OCU and be a stunning masterpiece to that area. Classen Tower and dome will create another world along with the diversity of Little Saigon and Paseo and so on. It would be a better investment to keep OCU growing and turn it into the "world class U" it could be.(Istar U/all mac school).

[jbrown84]

The City cannot give money to OCU unless it wants to give the exact same amount to OC and OBU, both of which have campuses in OKC city limits. And even still that is iffy.

[stlokc]

I am not associated in any capacity wih OU, OSU, OCU, OBU or any other school in OK. But I have been a very active volunteer with the University of Missouri for some time, and in my opinion Missouri and Oklahoma are similiar enough in size, wealth, education, etc., for me to offer the following opinion:

The last thing taxpayers and residents of Oklahoma should want is another publicly funded university siphoning off money that could go towards strengthening programs at existing publicly funded universities. If OK is anything like MO, tuitions are going up at existing state universities because of tight state budgets. And there is an ongoing fight in MO about whether every school needs every department or if programs should be consolidated across public universities. What kinds of programs would this new school offer that do not already exist at OU, OSU, OU Health Sciences Center? If somebody like Bill Gates came in and offered billions of dollars of private money to open a Harvard South Branch, great. Take the money and run. But otherwise, the city/state would be better off supporting the colleges and universities that are already there. I have always thought the student presence at OU Health Sciences Center was an exteremely under-utilized asset for Downtown. Encourage those kids to move into apartments in Triangle, Bricktown, etc. Create a "Campus Corner" atmosphere on Lincoln Blvd. between the Health Park, OSSM, etc. Capitalize and build on what is already there.

[jbrown84]

I agree with all of that.

[Kerry]

I am glad the downtown university idea isn't dead. I have been working in Atlanta for the past 4 months and there is a small technical university not far from me. It is a low-cost equivalent of Geogia Tech. The school has a nice campus and focuses on technlogy. It is called Southern Polytechnic. While the campus was originally part of GT it is now its own school.

Think Oklahoma City Polytechnic. No sports teams, just high tech research and education.

Southern Polytechnic State University

[metro]

I've been to Southern Polytechnic! Anyhow, I don't see the city or state assisting OCU financially because it is a privately funded religious school. This would cause too much controversy and uproar.

[jbrown84]

and it's illegal.

[metro]

very true jbrown, I just meant even if it was legal, these others would be huge enough obstacles it would never happen. not sure how others got off on the "reality" that it was feasible. I suppose the OKC-U could become a public university, but I doubt the United Methodist church wants to give up one of their prized universities.

[jbrown84]

If it became a non-affiliated private university, it might work.

[JWil]

Well, reading this thread reminded me about the stuff I submitted. I figure since others have put their thoughts out there for people to tee off on, why not join the fray? Here's my 2,200-word piece:
_______________

I think the core of MAPs3 should focus on downtown and the new space opening up south of Reno when the I-40 Crosstown Bridge moves southward. The bulk of my proposal focuses on continuing to re-shape downtown and make it a round-the-clock place for our citizens to see and take part in. I’ve traveled some in my time, so some of these ideas are borrowed from others cities and I’ll mention them in notation as I go.

ANOTHER NEW ARENA/NEW CONVENTION CENTER
I was one of those who had season tickets to the Hornets the two seasons they played here. And while I know that the NBA coming back to OKC is basically a slam dunk at this point, we need to be proactive and start looking ahead to building another arena in the downtown OKC area in the next 10-15 years. Ford Center is a nice arena and it met its mission statement (to attract a professional franchise to OKC) in less than five years. That arena gave OKC the stage it needed and its $89 million price tag has proven to be more than worth the initial risk of building an arena like that and potentially having it sit empty. Aside from the Hornets, it’s made OKC a big concert stop as well. But we all know that Ford Center was built rather Spartan so it could fit in The City’s budget at the time, and that it likely doesn’t have a long shelf life at the NBA level. Much like Chicago’s Comiskey Park missed out on the retro ballpark mania of the 1990s by only a year (Baltimore’s Camden Yards came out the following year and set the table for a decade-long baseball stadium renaissance), the Ford Center missed out on the “next-generation” arena design. Built on the 90s-era Arrowhead Pond in Anaheim and Savvis Center in St. Louis, Ford was quickly outpaced by such complexes as Dallas’ American Airlines Center, St. Paul’s Xcel Energy Center and Los Angeles’ Staples Center. The Ford was nice for a two-year surprise Hornets stint, but it won’t be a feasible place to host an NBA team for 40 or 50 years.

And that’s what we need to shoot for. I think the centerpiece for MAPs3 should be a new arena built either just south of the Ford Center or on the footprint of the current placing of the Cox Convention Center. I realize that we made a lot of improvements to the old Myriad recently, but even still, the bulk of that building is almost 35 years old. I noticed in the “Core to Shore” program that’s on your page, there are a lot of designs for a new convention center either just south of Bricktown or just south of Ford Center. No matter where you put a new arena, I think it’s important to keep the convention space, new arena and Ford Center lumped together, as it makes it easy for fans and out-of-town convention types to get around.

Along with the arena, it’s important we reserve space for a practice facility/team offices to be placed either in the arena or alongside of it. Those items are absolutely vital for the long-term stability of an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City.

I could go on and on about this issue, but the point has been made. A new arena is important to the future of downtown OKC, as it would guarantee the long-term security of keeping an NBA team here for years to come.

SKYWALK OKC
One of the neatest things that Kansas City has is a skywalk that connects downtown buildings with an indoor mall. I realize The City has just invested a lot into the Underground, but I think creating a downtown-wide Skywalk would be more popular. We already have one section in place (it runs from the Cox Center to the Santa Fe parking garage), so why not extend it? The summers in OKC are beautiful, but the heat makes it brutal. What about a system of walkways that connects the bombing memorial to Bricktown? Think of how I-635 in Dallas goes all the way around that city? Well, I think a skywalk that encircled the core of downtown OKC and connected the hotels to the hot entertainment/tourist spots would be very popular – in summer or winter. And encouraging someone to come in and build a small downtown mall (like half the size of Quail Springs but still attractive for shoppers) would be good. And as a frequent visitor to St. Louis, having a mall downtown is a great way to kill time before events. They turned their old Union Station into a mall. Maybe OKC should turn our beautiful Union Station into a mall too? In any event, I think an above-ground walkway that connected the arts district to automobile alley and Bricktown to the bombing memorial would be ideal.

BUILD UP THE MOVIE DISTRICT
The movie industry can be big economic boom for a city. And once I found out that the Main Street/Sheridian corridors were once littered with satellite movie studios in the 1920s and 30s, I saw a perfect way to revitalize the downtrodden side of the west end of downtown: Turn it back into an entertainment area. How? By attracting those in Oklahoma who are interested in moviemaking to set up shop in that area. Clean out and refurbish those old studios and ensure they go to folks who want to attract the movies back to Oklahoma. Maybe create an “Oklahoma Entertainers Hall of Fame” and build a museum that focuses on the likes of Chuck Norris, Ron Howard, James Garner, etc., and have a Walk of Fame ala Hollywood and hand out stars to Oklahoma musicians and actors? The goal there being to build up the Movie District as a two-fold center of actual entertainment business and entertainment tourism, publicizing all the great performers that Oklahoma has had over the years. It could be a huge thing, if done correctly.

A RIVERSIDE CONCERT VENUE
I went to Austin one time and saw BB King live. It was awesome. The music was great. But what really made it outstanding was the setting: On the banks of the Colorado River just south of downtown with its downtown buildings as a backdrop for the performance. I think building an outdoor amphitheater on the south banks of the Oklahoma River with the crowd being able to see the downtown skyline behind the stage would be an amazing venue. Imagine having a concert there at night, with Bricktown and downtown all lit up and bustling behind it? The place I’m thinking of is along Byers just north of SE 15th Street. I realize that land has some other stuff on it right now, but it has – by far – the best view of downtown from the south side of the river. And once the freeway moves south and Pull-A-Part and the Cotton Gin plant moves away and that land between Bricktown and the river fills in with more attractions, it will become a jewel that would be unmatched for holding concerts in an outdoor setting.

CALL IT “BRICKTOWN BOULEVARD”
This is very short, but in terms of marketing, I think naming the surface street that will replace the I-40 bridge “Bricktown Blvd.” would make a lot of sense. Why? Well, when I-40 finally moves, the old I-40 will become an exit point to downtown off of the freeway. So, having a sign on the new I-40 that said: “Bricktown Blvd. – Downtown, Bricktown” would be free advertising to those driving cross-country who might be curious as to what exactly Bricktown is.

EXPANSION OF THE CANAL
The Canal is great, but there’s not a big point to it because it doesn’t take you anywhere. In San Antonio, their RiverWalk also serves as a viable transportation vehicle for visitors, taking them from place to place. I’ve seen your Core to Shore plans and they have extensions to that are already on there, but I wanted to mention that anyway. Since Bricktown Blvd. will become the main street into downtown, maybe you could tear out Reno Ave. from Mickey Mantle Blvd. to Hudson and have that be a route that could drop people off at Myriad Gardens? In any event, making the canal or circle of some sort and connecting it would be a good idea.

WHAT ABOUT A LIGHT RAIL?
I know that installing these can be cost-prohibitive, but what about a light rail system that’s designed mainly for visitors to OKC? I understand that a city-wide light rail network would be difficult to do, but what about installing a rail system that just focused on connecting Will Rogers World Airport to the Meridian Ave. hotel corridor to downtown? Start it at the WRWA terminal and build it about 20 feet off the ground and connect it to the hotels that range from Reno to SW 44th? I realize this is probably more of a monorail since I mentioned building it off the ground, but I think this is something that could work pretty well as it would be based on serving people not from here who don’t have regular transportation. And before I go on, let me say that visitors NEVER feel like taking a bus system of whatever town they’re in. That’s just a fact. Maybe make it a Subway – LA has one and they live in their cars. Anyway, I just think a dedicated rail system that connected the airport to the Meridian hotels and ended at Bricktown could be a great idea. And maybe do another line that connects Bricktown to the Capitol and then on up to the Zoo/Omniplex/Softball area? I realize that all these areas don’t really have rail tracks currently in place, but with gas prices climbing, it might be the perfect time to start buying right-of-ways to have a solid transportation venue in place for down the road.

And if not something like that, what about a commuter rail system that ran East/West from Shawnee to El Reno and North/South from Guthrie to Norman with the lines meeting downtown? I’m afraid to say this, but I think there will soon be a time where most middle-class people won’t be able to afford to buy gas, so examining a long-term transportation solution might be a good idea to address earlier rather than later.

EXTEND BRICKTOWN TO LINCOLN BLVD.
I can already see this happening, but I think it’s important to mention. Right now, Bricktown basically ends at Stiles Ave. Now that the core part of Bricktown is filling up fast, I think we should focus our efforts on extending Bricktown to Lincoln Blvd. The areas now filled by Fox Auto Collision and those warehouses should be replaced with attractions that Bricktown doesn’t currently have that would be friendly to locals and tourists alike – things like a miniature golf course, more restaurants (fast or sit-down), a small mall, etc. Basically, I just think that area should be home to things that Bricktown currently lacks that would be a potential draw for the area. Plus, doing that would make all of Bricktown look better.

UTILIZE “CORE TO SHORE” IDEAS INTO MAPs3
I’ve looked over your Core to Shore plans and I think they should be included into any MAPs3 proposal. I know we keep focusing on downtown, but I’m a big believer that having a strong downtown will radiate through the rest of the city. I think a downtown marina and Central Park-style park surrounded by new places to live would be fantastic. I think that area between the I-40s should be focused on east-coast style living. By that I mean, nice apartments and town homes that are close together (ala row housing), with small convenience stores and markets sprinkled around. I think a very important thing to do is create an area for people who live downtown to get their essentials. As of now, they have to go to Belle Isle or elsewhere to shop for food and whatnot. I think the next phase in turning downtown OKC into something great is to increase its appeal in terms of living down there. We have to make it attractive to people to not just move downtown, but to live and focus their spending dollars there as well.

OKC already has a strong commerce section (downtown) and a strong entertainment/dining section (Bricktown). Now it needs a strong residential section. I think the area just south of downtown is a great place for that kind of growth.

IN CLOSING
I don’t know if what I’m submitting is longer or shorter than the average, but these are all things I’ve thought of recently that I believe would be very beneficial to OKC. I believe OKC continuing to solidify its downtown core is vital to our future. Speaking as someone who is not from central Oklahoma and is now very proud to call Oklahoma City home, I think we have OKC going on the right track. The City has revolutionized itself in the last decade and it’s been a truly beautiful thing to see. I love being here as OKC molds itself into something new and amazing. But I think we can do more. And I fully support MAPs3, as I believe that program will be the next important phase for the future of a city that is newly major-league and wants to stay that way.

[diesel]

I was hearing on Channel 5 (ABC) around 7:20 that the governor would be speaking about what they have decided around 8:30... I was asleep at 8:30.. Did anyone catch this or did it happen?!?!

[Blairman]

Govenor or did you mean Mayor ? Unless Henry has a MAPS for Shawnee.

[diesel]

Govenor or did you mean Mayor ? Unless Henry has a MAPS for Shawnee.

I was sleepy when i heard it.. I guess it could have been the mayor.. I emailed channel 5 and they said that it would be on at 6PM

[jbrown84]

JWil, those are pretty good ideas except

1. I don't like the skywalk idea because, much like the underground, it would take away from streetlife. It's very rare that our weather is extreme enough that people can't just walk outside.

2. "Bricktown Blvd" doesn't make sense because 2/3rds of it will not be in Bricktown.

[JWil]

JWil, those are pretty good ideas except

1. I don't like the skywalk idea because, much like the underground, it would take away from streetlife. It's very rare that our weather is extreme enough that people can't just walk outside.

2. "Bricktown Blvd" doesn't make sense because 2/3rds of it will not be in Bricktown.

Thanks...

1. Looking back, I tend to agree. That's just something I saw up there and liked. Of course, I was using it in December. haha.

2. Well, is ANY of Tulsa Ave. in Tulsa? Since it would be an entirely new street, I just figured it would be a built-in way to market Bricktown. Plus, The City has already said that they would like the new street to be the entry point into the established part of downtown, so why not? After all, if you're going west on I-40 and get off on that street, you'll immediately be in Bricktown. Wouldn't be all that much of a stretch IMO.

[Nixon7]

Love the venue idea on the banks of the river. that is a MUST!!!

[metro]

JWil, you bring up some good points, some old, some not. I have to agree with jbrown's stance on some of them.

1.) New Arena/New Convention Center - this has been discussed numerous times officially and unofficially and has been included in CORE TO SHORE (C2S) discussions as well as MAPS3 proposals. More than likely this will happen with one of these two initiatives.

2.) Skywalk OKC - there are many more skybridges in downtown OKC than you mentioned. There is a skybridge that connects the Cox Convention Center to the Renaissance Hotel, the Renaissance Hotel to the Sante Fe parking garage, and many others. As well Leadership Square has one connecting to Oklahoma Tower. Next time you drive downtown OKC, look up in the skys and you'll notice about 12 or so skybridges. I think OKC is more than okay on this issue. As someone stated, the Underground connects the majority of downtown OKC.

3.) The "movie district" you refer to is called Film Row officially. I'm actually apart of the Oklahoma Film Society. Anyhow this project is already a go and there are some projects in Film Row completed and many others in the works including public streetscaping and a Oklahoma Walk of Fame that will start construction this summer. I encourage you to visit Film Exchange OKC or read the Q2 edition of downtown okc inc's skyline snapshot to inform you of the latest developments here.

4.) Riverside Concert Venue - totally agree with you here. I'll think we'll see one once the new I-40 is in place. An outdoor coliseum is part of the master plan, although no official source of funding/planning is in place yet.

5.) Bricktown Boulevard - I'm going with jbrown here, it doesn't make sense, the Bricktown name is overhyped and misused already, not to mention very little of the boulevard will be in Bricktown.

6.)Extend Bricktown - I'm not for it, but I think this will naturally evolve somehow. I'd prefer it be called something else, but I'm sure some sort of natural district will develop. More than likely Bricktown will extend east to Lincoln and South to the River.

7.) CORE 2 SHORE into MAPS 3 - agree with you here, realistically this is probably what will happen. The city can't support two tax initiatives at the same time legally. I think if both passed during the same time period, it puts us over the maximum allowable tax rate, at least without some sort of state vote. I don't see this happening this way. I'm pretty confident some public funds will be used as well as MAPS 3 will address this.

[jbrown84]

Yeah, like metro said, the name Bricktown is already being misused by the likes of "Deep Deuce at Bricktown", "Bricktown Central Plaza Hotel", and many others, and I think naming the boulevard after Bricktown would only propogate that further. I don't think Bricktown really needs any help marketing. I prefer the idea to name it after Ralph Ellison or Teddy Roosevelt.