Omni Hotel

[Paseofreak]

Perhaps strangely, the thing that struck me when reading the high points of the agreement was the restrictions on incentives or subsidies for any other downtown hotels as defined by Omni. It seems that the city is likely to run up against instances like The Spaghetti Warehouse building several times in the next twenty years. Kinda sticks in my craw a bit. Chad?

[OkieDave]

I have mentioned this repeatedly in this thread. Not only do we need adequate room blocks to be able to book conferences and conventions, but to be competitive the prices of these rooms MUST be discounted below market rate. This is standard in the industry. And you CANNOT force a privately-funded hotel to build beyond their natural booking capacity (an Omni would probably build 200-300 rooms if they came at all), and you CANNOT force discounted rooms unless the city is a partner. Public participation allows for more rooms, and allows for discounted blocks.

Regarding not having an attached HQ hotel, if you don't build one it truly WOULD be a massive waste to build the convention center itself, in the first place. You're out of the game, period.

Regarding bookings, even our currently sorry facilities attract national conferences. We lose many many many events currently because of inadequate facilities. Planners want to come here because of our central location and exciting, walkable downtown, but they just can't. Plus, regional and statewide conferences themselves are very good business. These people are bringing money to our economy and dropping it off. It is incredibly clean economic development, which grows our tax base using other people's money. Nobody talks about the influx of taxes and lodging/entertainment conferences and conventions bring when criticizing this effort. By doing so they are being intellectually dishonest.

And it's not just conferences we miss out on. The NCAA and other sports organizations want desperately to make OKC a regular stop for events like wrestling championships, volleyball championships, cheerleading, gymnastics, but the Cox Center doesn't have adequate ceiling heights or clear span. We will see a flood of these events upon completion. Several years ago the NCAA suspended some of their technical requirements for wrestling championships because they wanted so badly to be here. Ask downtown merchants or the City's budget director about the economic impact of THAT event. I'll promise it blew away Thunder games; even playoff games.

As long as we're talking about building inadequacies, we'd might as well discuss the loading dock situation. Currently the Cox Center can't host simultaneous events that require load-in, because they are on top of each other. Our event dates are likely to double or triple with the new facility, and that's not Chamber-driven blue sky election promises. These are real things the CVB sales staff deals with daily.

So, to summarize: incentives are not being used to make some rich guy richer. They are used to entice a hotel to build larger than they would otherwise, to sell rooms below market rate, all while guaranteeing success for all parties concerned, INCLUDING taxpayers. And if we don't build the hotel, we'd might as well not build the CC. Which would be a MASSIVE mistake, and which would turn away ongoing, very substantial economic impact, jobs and increased sales tax revenue all paid for by people who don't live here.

Currently 1/11 of the Hotel/Motel Tax (about $1.5 million/year) is set aside to give to conventions to lure them here including potentially offsetting the price of rooms. If you are correct that one should not build a convention center without building a massively publicly subsidized convention center hotel, then why was that not discussed during the MAPS3 campaign? Why wasn't money for the hotel placed into the MAPS3 program like members of the City's Finance Department asked to be done (since they knew in 2009 that this day was going to come) at the time. You are basically making the case that the Chamber who ran the campaign lied to the people of OKC when they claimed that by voting on a convention center in the 2009 MAPS3 vote, we would triple the City's convention business while omitting that their study done that year stated that a publicly subsidized hotel would be needed to achieve those gains (even though no city had ever doubled, much less tripled their convention business). They claimed the convention center was $240 million and would be paid for debt free knowing full well that this day would come and the City would need to borrow heavily to complete the project. Nothing could be further from the spirit of the MAPS program (pay as you go, no debt, no interest payments). The reason that the hotel was left out of the MAPS campaign is, of course, that the people of OKC would NEVER have supported this boondoggle and the Chamber knew it. So they lied to the people of OKC and now advocates such as yourself are stomping their feet saying we've come too far, it would be a waste of money not to borrow heavily and complete it right and you will win the battle as this is likely to get 5 votes on Council but likely will lose the war as the MAPS program as we knew it is over.

[d-usa]

If the Omni would build 300 rooms rather than 200, shouldn't the subsidy cover 40% of the cost rather than all of it?

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
I was saying that the natural size of the Omni or similar flag - based only on demand - would probably be 200-300. That is, if they located here at all. It was suggested above that perhaps organic hotel growth could fill the need. Not true, because a business-minded hotel flag would only build what they could expect to book nightly at market rate.

To attract conferences and conventions, the CVB needs to be able to offer room blocks at below market rate. You cannot expect a private business to take on this responsibility/risk without some guarantees. They are businesses, not charitable organizations. And without being able to block rooms, the convention center under performs, becomes an operational burden and does not return worthwhile performance for the taxpayers who built it. If we do this the right way, the convention center and hotel actually pay for themselves and more. Few if any MAPS projects have a chance to drive as much in the way of sales tax and new dollars in the economy, and some have no chance whatsoever. This benefits taxpayers, in the long term.

Also worth mentioning is that the City will hopefully directly recoup much of this investment via payments from the hotel operator. This is very similar to how the City has received back about $8 million of the $22 million it put up for renovation of the Sirvin, and I don't think anyone today would call that deal a bad one. This is even more important, as it helps guarantee the success of the city's largest-ever MAPS project.

[Urbanized]

Look at it this way: few here question the value of the streetcar. It's a $120 million project which might not even have a fare box. No way does it pay for itself. Heck, it almost certainly won't even pay for its own operation..?

So why don't we here call it a boondoggle? Well, it's simple; we have bought into its value as an economic development driver. This is something that is going to be difficult to quantify, yet will be undeniable to those who watch closely.

Most of the people who I hear criticizing the streetcar do it because they don't see themselves riding; they don't see how it will benefit them directly.

The CC and attached hotel doesn't resonate with people here the same way, because it's hard to picture yourself using it or seeing direct benefit. Yet I am saying we ALL benefit. It will drive new jobs, new tax revenue, new money circulating in the economy. It will have a ripple effect when it introduces people (convention and event attendees) to our city for the first time and sheds a positive light on us. These people will return here for trips (this ALREADY happens thanks to conferences and sporting events we already host), and they will talk OKC up to friends and family. We KNOW this. It already happens.

This is incredibly valuable to our city, which presently still suffers from an image problem; mostly lack thereof. There are both tangible and intangible benefits, but either way the CC and the Omni are important for OKC. Just because you don't personally see yourself benefitting is about the most lousy of reasons to not support something that benefits the community as a whole.

[soonerguru]

I'm actually less upset with this announcement than I am the totally stupid MAPS idea that is moving forward. Completely lacking imagination, it will set back the MAPS brand, in my opinion. Others may disagree but "MAPS for Streets" is just a total miss and I'm not inclined to support it. That being said, this is an excessive amount of public investment and this hotel had better be a freaking showstopper. One thing they could do is force Omni to add a few floors of for-sale housing to the mix. Then at least we could see mixed use that may have an additional ongoing benefit to the Park and future development there.

While we are at it, I'm actually quite disgusted with Devon Energy and Continental and their efforts to involve themselves in the state budget negotiations. How does this impact OKC? Because OKC is the state's largest school district and these corporate behemoths have no problem pushing their tax-break agenda at the state while OKC is doubling class sizes and trying to run a major school system on a budget one would expect in Juarez. That the OKC Chamber recently sent me an invitation for a "State of the Schools" forum, with a panel featuring no Democrats, even though most of our city's legislators are Democrats, and sponsored by Devon and Hobby Lobby, is mindlessly insulting to anyone who is concerned about the total disregard for common and public education we are witnessing. You could say my warm fuzzy feelings for our city's leadership are being tested right now, and you would be right.

[OKCRT]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most conferences OKC hosts local or regional? Is there evidence that a new convention center will attract national or international conferences? I attend about 6-8 conferences a year and none of the big ones will likely ever consider OKC. Just curious how much a new convention center hotel really moves the needle.

They want to compete with other 2 tier cities for conventions. They can't do that with the Cox CC. and they won't be able to do it without a staple hotel attached the the new CC. That is just the way it is. If you want to stay status quo then fine. If you want to step it up and compete with other cities (most a bit larger than OKC) then you do it right.

[Pete]

They want to compete with other 2 tier cities for conventions. They can't do that with the Cox CC. and they won't be able to do it without a staple hotel attached the the new CC. That is just the way it is. If you want to stay status quo then fine. If you want to step it up and compete with other cities (most a bit larger than OKC) then you do it right.

The new convention center is a huge win for OKC regardless of Omni. The real question is: Is the incremental difference the Omni will bring the best use of what looks to be close to $200 million?

There has to be a limit, but not sure what it should be. People had been prepared for $50 million and we are now way off the reservation.


BTW, this is a great discussion and the only place this is happening, at least in public.

[gopokes88]

I'm actually less upset with this announcement than I am the totally stupid MAPS idea that is moving forward. Completely lacking imagination, it will set back the MAPS brand, in my opinion. Others may disagree but "MAPS for Streets" is just a total miss and I'm not inclined to support it. That being said, this is an excessive amount of public investment and this hotel had better be a freaking showstopper. One thing they could do is force Omni to add a few floors of for-sale housing to the mix. Then at least we could see mixed use that may have an additional ongoing benefit to the Park and future development there.

While we are at it, I'm actually quite disgusted with Devon Energy and Continental and their efforts to involve themselves in the state budget negotiations. How does this impact OKC? Because OKC is the state's largest school district and these corporate behemoths have no problem pushing their tax-break agenda at the state while OKC is doubling class sizes and trying to run a major school system on a budget one would expect in Juarez. That the OKC Chamber recently sent me an invitation for a "State of the Schools" forum, with a panel featuring no Democrats, even though most of our city's legislators are Democrats, and sponsored by Devon and Hobby Lobby, is mindlessly insulting to anyone who is concerned about the total disregard for common and public education we are witnessing. You could say my warm fuzzy feelings for our city's leadership are being tested right now, and you would be right.

You sound just disappointed and pissed in general at everything tho

[Laramie]

Where do we go from here?

I find it difficult to swallow. Tulsa now has three 500 room hotels (Double Tree, Hyatt Regency, River Spirit Casino Resort). OKC needs to get off this 'holier-than-thou art' attitude.

Make a deal with the Chickasaw Tribe:

Give them the museum to develop & the surrounding land . Allow them to develop the convention center conference hotel. I bet they would give you 1,000 rooms (500 ft., high skyscraper) and the city could have its cake and eat it too...

[Colbafone]

Where do we go from here?

I find it difficult to swallow. Tulsa now has three 500 room hotels (Double Tree, Hyatt Regency, River Spirit Casino Resort). OKC needs to get off this 'holier-than-thou art' attitude.

Make a deal with the Chickasaw Tribe:

Give them the museum to develop & the surrounding land . Allow them to develop the convention center conference hotel. I bet they would give you 1,000 rooms (500 ft., high skyscraper) and the city could have its cake and eat it too...

I think this is a great idea. OKC should really bite the bullet and embrace a real identity and take on a more Native American culture. Think of how Seattle is sort of the video game capital of the US, San Fran is the LGBT center of the US, Austin the festival Mecca, LA the grand convention city and Vegas the epic anything goes city. Fort Worth has its Make OKC Native American again. I would LOVE for OKC, and the state for that matter, to embrace more Native American culture. Id much rather give a tribe huge amounts of TIF than a large hotelier. Imagine having a sort of Native American district to combat Bricktown as our two on the map districts.

I know I'm just wishful thinking here, but it would be pretty cool.

[dankrutka]

OKC should really bite the bullet and embrace a real identity and take on a more Native American culture. Think of how Seattle is sort of the video game capital of the US, San Fran is the LGBT center of the US, Austin the festival Mecca, LA the grand convention city and Vegas the epic anything goes city. Fort Worth has its Make OKC Native American again. I would LOVE for OKC, and the state for that matter, to embrace more Native American culture. Id much rather give a tribe huge amounts of TIF than a large hotelier. Imagine having a sort of Native American district to combat Bricktown as our two on the map districts.

I know I'm just wishful thinking here, but it would be pretty cool.

Bite the bullet? "Take on" on Native American culture?

OKC doesn't get to choose to try on Native American identity for tourist dollars and "identity." This is one of the biggest problems with how many non-Indigenous Oklahomans view and (mis)understand Indigenous cultures. Cultural appropriation is a serious problem and the primary way the state has engaged with Indigenous peoples is through using them as bumper stickers and slogans. If you want to know more about Indigenous businesses and cultures, ask them about what they're already doing.

OKC should amplify the businesses, cultures, and voices of Indigenous people... but on their terms.

[SOONER8693]

Bite the bullet? "Take on" on Native American culture?

OKC doesn't get to choose to try on Native American identity for tourist dollars and "identity." This is one of the biggest problems with how many non-Indigenous Oklahomans view and (Mia)understand Indigenous cultures. Cultural appropriation is a serious problem and the primary way the state has engaged with Indigenous peoples is through using them as bumper stickers and slogans. If you want to know more about Indigenous businesses and cultures, ask them about what they're already doing.

OKC should amplify the businesses, cultures, and voices of Indigenous people... but on their terms.

Well said.

[Laramie]

Bite the bullet? "Take on" on Native American culture?

OKC doesn't get to choose to try on Native American identity for tourist dollars and "identity." This is one of the biggest problems with how many non-Indigenous Oklahomans view and (mis)understand Indigenous cultures. Cultural appropriation is a serious problem and the primary way the state has engaged with Indigenous peoples is through using them as bumper stickers and slogans. If you want to know more about Indigenous businesses and cultures, ask them about what they're already doing.

OKC should amplify the businesses, cultures, and voices of Indigenous people... but on their terms.

Good!

Amplify that conference hotel--pay up or shut up. Omni's got a testicle vice grip on OKC.

[Colbafone]

Bite the bullet? "Take on" on Native American culture?

OKC doesn't get to choose to try on Native American identity for tourist dollars and "identity." This is one of the biggest problems with how many non-Indigenous Oklahomans view and (mis)understand Indigenous cultures. Cultural appropriation is a serious problem and the primary way the state has engaged with Indigenous peoples is through using them as bumper stickers and slogans. If you want to know more about Indigenous businesses and cultures, ask them about what they're already doing.

OKC should amplify the businesses, cultures, and voices of Indigenous people... but on their terms.

I don't disagree. Take what I said however you want. I'm not saying I want the Chickasaws selling headdresses to Christina Fallon in Bircktown. I don't want appropriation. My vision would be more of an actually Native American city. Think Farmington New Mexico, but not a reservation. I get the Oklahoma Tribes can't just move their holdings to OKC.

I want OKC to embrace it's history more. Think the Gaslight District in San Diego or the Power and Light District in Kansas City. Unfortunately there isn't just a tone of tribal history in OKC proper, but we could make it work.

When I say bite the bullet, I mean truly make a name for the city. And yes, I say embrace the gimmick somewhat. People think OKC has the Cowboys and Indians heritage, so give any OK based tribe the reins and the proper financing, let let them create a REAL new age urban Native American district. I think that would be pretty awesome both for OKC residents, the state, and and tribes involved. I would much much much much rather give my money to a native OK tribe than to Omni.

[Laramie]

We can't change our history. It is what it is.

Embrace our history & heritage for whatever it's worth. The tribes don't owe us a thing. They do have more to offer in experience & expertise in the area of hospitality; why not explore that avenue.

[mkjeeves]

But wait there's more...

Just about the time the Convention Center we voted for is built, and the Hotel Boondoogle we didn't vote for and don't want is put into use, we'll be told it's all inadequate and just won't work, how we just can't live up to OKC's potential if we don't spend millions and millions more on expanding the Convention Center.

If only someone had studied this folly and warned us. Oh yeah: http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15221.html

[d-usa]

Oklahoma can't "embrace" our history by deciding to turn things "native". Although, "using" tribes might be the most historically accurate thing to do.

Tribes could be a great resource. But they need to be approached as full partners and equals, not as resources and utilities.

[kevin lee]

You have to be careful when using studies, articles, books, etc. with topics such as this. Everything and anything can be slanted to the left or right depending on the writer's preference. Everything from time frames to which metro areas they are using for these examples can be added or subtracted to fit their agenda. Each cities case is different from the next and studies like this are useless because no two cities situations will match perfectly.

[Laramie]

There are a lot of pieces & moving parts that complement a city's economic growth; a new convention center complex is one piece; more of an investment. Tourists, community pride & novelty pieces like the Riversport Rapids, Modern Streetcar & a massive downtown park in the core add to the 'quality of life' of your city.

Dallas-Fort Worth loved it when Oklahomans hit their market by the droves to enjoy tax free day. It took us decades to figure out a simple formula to keep that money in our local economy.

The more new money (out-of-state) you infuse (not circulate) into the Oklahoma City economy, the better off we will be for future growth.

Dallas didn't become Dynamic Dallas overnight. Fort Worth's fat sister swallowed it all--sword, line, hook & sinker.

Oklahoma City needs to continue to invest in itself. You want more development & corporate growth like GE Global Research; then you have to invest in those complementary pieces that will make your city WHOLE. The Chesapeake Energy Arena has had an impact on OKC's image. It made the NBA possible, it changed the perception of OKC.

[mugofbeer]

Maybe I've missed it and I apologize for the lack of time to read the entire thread, but are there cities with major convention centers (other than Vegas and NYC), where a convention center Hotel was NOT subsidized? If I recall,both Dallas and Denver paid far more than what OKC is being asked to pay.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
Yes, it is very standard, for reasons I have outlined many times in this thread, not that anyone has bothered to actually read and digest them since their minds are already made up. And yes, this group of incentives is more favorable to OKC than many/most, as there is no obligation to the City for ongoing operational subsidy plus a real opportunity for much of the investment to be paid back to OKC.

[Pete]

Subsidies may be standard but what I'd like to see is a summary of of the nature of these subsidies for comparison (dollars and other terms and what was built), then the return on those investments over time.

[HangryHippo]

N/m

[d-usa]

^^^^^^
Yes, it is very standard, for reasons I have outlined many times in this thread, not that anyone has bothered to actually read and digest them since their minds are already made up. And yes, this group of incentives is more favorable to OKC than many/most, as there is no obligation to the City for ongoing operational subsidy plus a real opportunity for much of the investment to be paid back to OKC.

I don't know about other people, but for me the problem is not the basic concept of a subsidy.

The problem is that this hotel is build on a basis of dishonesty. The Chamber, knowing full and well that it wasn't true, pushed the convention center as part of maps to be a debt free enterprise. They did that knowing that they would eventually come back and say that this debt free center is worthless unless we go into huge debt to complete it via a hotel.