BOK Park Plaza

[soondoc]

I think we need to just stop focusing on this project as it is done and Nichols and company won. This non impressive 27 story building and its garages are going to take up this block. It has little chance for retail or street interaction and that is just the way it is. What we can focus on is getting more people DT and with districts like BT, DD, AA, and Wheeler, that remains a positive. I think OKC DT district needs to focus on an area where they have almost a strip of retail and great street interaction. It may be sterile over by Devon/499 Sheridan but people going to the Peake, MBG, and the park can still have a place where the OKC downtown has an area that is vibrant and lively. What do you think about that?

[soondoc]

In fact I hope someone steps up and does something amazing that will draw people back to DT and literally rub it in the face of Devon/499 of what could have been. It would be great to actually show them what could have been type thing. I would have someone go check out Fort Worth's DT and how they have done things there. People are moving back DT there and they have blended the past with lot of growth. The retail and street interaction is really impressive. It is actually a really neat place that OKC could easily follow their pattern of success. They don't have huge DT but have done great things with what they have. How great would it be to see cafe's with outside patio's, retail shopping, etc and just people watching, the street car going past you, etc?

[onthestrip]

But if it were on the second floor of a parking garage in the CBD, would you be as likely to go? My point is that I think the reason downtowns that are all parking garage and new buildings are off putting. Couple that with absent foot traffic in the evenings, and I suspect it's less appealing to people. That's probably why a lot of CBDs are empty at night. We're just extending the empty space in our downtown with these parking garages and my point was that a restaurant like RePubLic is probably wise enough to locate in a district with older, smaller buildings with space on the first floor and foot traffic. A second floor garage is probably the place to put a Bonefish Grill or some national chain people who work downtown are drawn to.

No way. Even the large, well known chains know better and wouldnt put in a restaurant that was on the second floor and not ground level. And Im quite certain you wouldnt see them go into a retail space of a parking garage, ground level or not.

[BDP]

I was in Denver recently and got a future glimpse this block on Welton between 17th and 18th:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7462...mMjyejTSbQ!2e0

That "parking garage with retail" has a nail salon, a 7-11, and I think I lock and key store. There's a Grand Hyatt across the street, yet, this area was relatively dead the whole time I was there.

I found all the people in LoDo, a large area of downtown full of well integrated new construction for offices and residences and lots of repurposed renovations that housed retail and restaurants. It's largely credited for putting downtown Denver back on the map.

So, it's interesting that you can go to about any major city in American and compare the difference between the old "super block" strategy of razing multiple buildings for monolithic massing that made downtowns so unappealing for decades and the new concepts of revitalization through renovation and integrated new construction. It's easy to see which method has the better overall return and impact on a city. Even when they do demolition, no one seems to replace it with stuff like this anymore. It's crazy how when some developers here try to "leave their mark" on the city, they end up doing it the same way did decades ago that only resulted in leaving scars.

[David]

No way. Even the large, well known chains know better and wouldnt put in a restaurant that was on the second floor and not ground level. And Im quite certain you wouldnt see them go into a retail space of a parking garage, ground level or not.

It wasn't in a parking garage, but on a trip to DC last year I ended up eating in a Del Frisco's Steakhouse that had no apparent problems with most of their space being on the second floor of the building it was in.

Maybe I'm not understanding the objection to second floor spaces.

[BDP]

Maybe I'm not understanding the objection to second floor spaces.

In a lot of urban areas, it's not a problem and actually sometimes needed because the ground floor is not conducive to a lobby and a restaurant. It's usually not the ideal spot, but I think it works for well branded or destination restaurants.

That being said, it may still well be too foreign of a concept for OKC. There would be an upside to it though because, if it's in a parking garage, putting it on higher levels would mean that less people had to walk as far, and I think that's what a lot of people here are most concerned about.

[onthestrip]

It wasn't in a parking garage, but on a trip to DC last year I ended up eating in a Del Frisco's Steakhouse that had no apparent problems with most of their space being on the second floor of the building it was in.

Maybe I'm not understanding the objection to second floor spaces.

Google street view seems to show that this Del Friscos has a sizable spot on the ground floor and the restaurant is 3 stories total. This is different than a restaurant having none or just a small entrance on the ground level. You may not understand the objection to something not having a street and ground preference, but I can tell you that restaurant owners and operators can. The people are on the street, and thats where most savvy restaurants want to have their presence.

[David]

Google street view seems to show that this Del Friscos has a sizable spot on the ground floor and the restaurant is 3 stories total. This is different than a restaurant having none or just a small entrance on the ground level. You may not understand the objection to something not having a street and ground preference, but I can tell you that restaurant owners and operators can. The people are on the street, and thats where most savvy restaurants want to have their presence.

From my ~4 month old memory, the entrance was on the first floor and the dining area I ate in was on the second floor. That's why I linked the night image that I did as it shows that part of the restaurant all nicely lit up. There may have been a dining area on the first floor but I don't remember seeing one.

[BDP]

The people are on the street, and thats where most savvy restaurants want to have their presence.

Crossing my fingers.

And of course, I think we all realize that even a second floor restaurant has to have access from the first floor street entrance. Hotels can get away with it sometimes, but they have a captive audience.

[David]

Haha, no kidding. Why are there going to be any people on the street during dinner time, won't all those Devon employees have already driven back out to the suburbs?

[BDP]

Haha, no kidding. Why are there going to be any people on the street during dinner time, won't all those Devon employees have already driven back out to the suburbs?

Maybe they'll walk from the nearby destination spots of bricktown, midtown, or film row.

[David]

Maybe they'll walk from the nearby destination spots of bricktown, midtown, or film row.

I bet plenty would have walked in to a Republic in the bus station.

[UnFrSaKn]

I was in Denver recently and got a future glimpse this block on Welton between 17th and 18th:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7462...mMjyejTSbQ!2e0

That "parking garage with retail" has a nail salon, a 7-11, and I think I lock and key store. There's a Grand Hyatt across the street, yet, this area was relatively dead the whole time I was there.

I found all the people in LoDo, a large area of downtown full of well integrated new construction for offices and residences and lots of repurposed renovations that housed retail and restaurants. It's largely credited for putting downtown Denver back on the map.

So, it's interesting that you can go to about any major city in American and compare the difference between the old "super block" strategy of razing multiple buildings for monolithic massing that made downtowns so unappealing for decades and the new concepts of revitalization through renovation and integrated new construction. It's easy to see which method has the better overall return and impact on a city. Even when they do demolition, no one seems to replace it with stuff like this anymore. It's crazy how when some developers here try to "leave their mark" on the city, they end up doing it the same way did decades ago that only resulted in leaving scars.

I did video in this area of Denver that is posted on the Denver thread and I specifically went up to Broadway and 20th St just to see the Holy Ghost Catholic Church.

StreetView

1999 Broadway is a skyscraper that they built to curve around this very old church. It's literally on the front doorstep and is really cool. We all know how this would have played out in Oklahoma City for this historic structure.

[SouthsideSooner]

But if it were on the second floor of a parking garage in the CBD, would you be as likely to go? My point is that I think the reason downtowns that are all parking garage and new buildings are off putting. Couple that with absent foot traffic in the evenings, and I suspect it's less appealing to people. That's probably why a lot of CBDs are empty at night. We're just extending the empty space in our downtown with these parking garages and my point was that a restaurant like RePubLic is probably wise enough to locate in a district with older, smaller buildings with space on the first floor and foot traffic. A second floor garage is probably the place to put a Bonefish Grill or some national chain people who work downtown are drawn to.

I'm not sure what you're taking about but the renderings clearly show the restaurant in the second floor of the office tower with an outdoor dining terrace overlooking the street. The dining and kitchen areas look to be about 9000 sf. The entrance will be through the first floor lobby, up an escalator and then walking down a corridor with open views of the lobby below and the MG and downtown to the east. They also show 3900 sf of retail at ground level below it... My guess is this space will do just fine...

[BoulderSooner]

Haha, no kidding. Why are there going to be any people on the street during dinner time, won't all those Devon employees have already driven back out to the suburbs?

More Devon employees. Spend evenings downtown on a weekly basis than the number of people that post on this forum

[betts]

I'm not sure what you're taking about but the renderings clearly show the restaurant in the second floor of the office tower with an outdoor dining terrace overlooking the street. The dining and kitchen areas look to be about 9000 sf. The entrance will be through the first floor lobby, up an escalator and then walking down a corridor with open views of the lobby below and the MG and downtown to the east. They also show 3900 sf of retail at ground level below it... My guess is this space will do just fine...

It might. We'll see. Maybe I'm in the minority. I find getting to Vast off putting and, even though I've had some good meals there, I will always choose Red or Broadway 10 because of the ease of access and homier feel (and yes, even with all the red neon and concrete, Red feels much more inviting). I think that's the appeal of the restaurants on 9th, in Midtown and the Plaza as well. I do the same in big cities - picking restaurants outside the CBD almost exclusively.

[onthestrip]

I'm not sure what you're taking about but the renderings clearly show the restaurant in the second floor of the office tower with an outdoor dining terrace overlooking the street. The dining and kitchen areas look to be about 9000 sf. The entrance will be through the first floor lobby, up an escalator and then walking down a corridor with open views of the lobby below and the MG and downtown to the east. They also show 3900 sf of retail at ground level below it... My guess is this space will do just fine...

Rumors were that Republic showed interest in leasing the Union bus station building, Im willing to wager they wont show any interest in this 2nd floor space.

If you ask me, they have plenty of ground floor space for a restaurant, but they were content with wasting prime space and street frontage so that they could "crank' the building. Why not cover that area and have the restaurant? It would get much more interest than something on the second floor.

[BoulderSooner]

The second floor space is not for lease. It is going to be nebu light. For employees but also open to the public

[Snowman]

Rumors were that Republic showed interest in leasing the Union bus station building, Im willing to wager they wont show any interest in this 2nd floor space.

If you ask me, they have plenty of ground floor space for a restaurant, but they were content with wasting prime space and street frontage so that they could "crank' the building. Why not cover that area and have the restaurant? It would get much more interest than something on the second floor.

They do have plenty of space for it, they are not even bothering putting retail frontage along greater 80% of Walker, even the new 'improved' version is planned to be a blank wall (ok probably somewhat enhanced wall but otherwise dead space) with parking stalls behind it.

[onthestrip]

The second floor space is not for lease. It is going to be nebu light. For employees but also open to the public

That's funny because I actually assumed it would end up being a company owned restaurant concept like nebu because of the difficulty of leasing a 2nd floor space. I don't see nebu light bringing much excitement to the area. And I assume it'll be closed at night too. I didn't have so much of a problem with the tower, more just the tearing down things for parking garages. Yet it appears they are wasting the potential of the tower too.

[Tigerguy]

We all know how this would have played out in Oklahoma City for this historic structure.

Do we? In this case, they would have had to contend with the Archdiocese of OKC.

[Urban Pioneer]

We had Friends for a Better Boulevard (which I don't think made one difference in fact made things worse because we are essentially getting the same road, just one less lane and a mile of bike lanes in front of the CC and Park, and a lower speed limit. That will do absolutely nothing for the walkability of the area. It's still a boulevard designed to move a car from point a to point b very quickly and reducing it from 6 to 4 lanes, adding a bike lane a part of it, and even reducing the speed limit doesn't change a thing. At the end of the day, it is still a road designed to move people from point a to point b very fast) and a couple other small projects, but nothing really that will make an impact on a large scale.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't agree with this.

FBB made a huge difference on many levels. We reduced the hideous overhead bridge by 3,200 linear feet and forced broad changes that will save taxpayers somewhere between $28.5 and $35 million dollars. We successfully delayed the project by nearly 3 years. A project that was said to not be possible of being delayed. That has allowed citizen input to actually occur. More intersections are being introduced to mitigate the "barrier affect" and subsequently slow traffic with more stops. A greater concern for crosswalks, bike lanes, and how the Boulevard interacts with the areas it bifurcates has occurred. Parallel parking has been introduced and the quantity of lanes and width of lanes diminished. The broader conversation regarding impacts has caused a political commitment to invest in rehabilitation and greater walkability investment to the streets leading up to the Boulevard.

Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it "better"? Hell yes.

We could have probably accomplished more if everyone was towing the same rope. There seemed to be a lack of recognition by urbanists that a "grid" option was never a politically viable option on all sorts of levels.

Some of your other commentary is fairly spot on. I am just a bit tired of the narrative that FBB failed somehow. We worked our a** off and forced a great many arrogant people to have to modify the design of their project. And they hate us for it.

I guess that is where the rub exists. This community is in transition with generational thinking. Suburban perogatives versus urbanity. The only way that positive change can occur is to get involved, get elected, or somehow else get a seat at the table.

[BDP]

More Devon employees. Spend evenings downtown on a weekly basis than the number of people that post on this forum

Are you just playing a numbers game, or do you know how often each poster spends time downtown each week?

[CuatrodeMayo]

i don't want to derail the thread, but i don't agree with this.

Fbb made a huge difference on many levels. We reduced the hideous overhead bridge by 3,200 linear feet and forced broad changes that will save taxpayers somewhere between $28.5 and $35 million dollars. We successfully delayed the project by nearly 3 years. A project that was said to not be possible of being delayed. That has allowed citizen input to actually occur. More intersections are being introduced to mitigate the "barrier affect" and subsequently slow traffic with more stops. A greater concern for crosswalks, bike lanes, and how the boulevard interacts with the areas it bifurcates has occurred. Parallel parking has been introduced and the quantity of lanes and width of lanes diminished. The broader conversation regarding impacts has caused a political commitment to invest in rehabilitation and greater walkability investment to the streets leading up to the boulevard.

Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it "better"? Hell yes.

We could have probably accomplished more if everyone was towing the same rope. There seemed to be a lack of recognition by urbanists that a "grid" option was never a politically viable option on all sorts of levels.

Some of your other commentary is fairly spot on. I am just a bit tired of the narrative that fbb failed somehow. We worked our a** off and forced a great many arrogant people to have to modify the design of their project. And they hate us for it.

I guess that is where the rub exists. This community is in transition with generational thinking. Suburban perogatives versus urbanity. The only way that positive change can occur is to get involved, get elected, or somehow else get a seat at the table.

like

[Bellaboo]

Are you just playing a numbers game, or do you know how often each poster spends time downtown each week?

Re-read his post, that's not what he said.