Why is this an issue? Seriously.

[Just the facts]

If we went to a flat-tax all 501's would go away. That portion of the tax code only exists to avoid income taxes.

[BBatesokc]

If we went to a flat-tax all 501's would go away. That portion of the tax code only exists to avoid income taxes.

Not necessarily, if you follow the flat tax debate/proposals - most every effort is actually a form of proportional tax rating or marginal flat tax as opposed to a true flat tax and most seem to take into account deductions for charitable organizations and even a total elimination of certain taxes for families whose income is below a certain level. At least that is my take on it.

[CaptDave]

This is where the Tea Party and the Occupy Movements got hijacked by the 1%ers in both parties. Could you imagine what would have happened if both groups had actually figured out we were fighting for the same thing? That might have produced French Revolution type activities.

This is why JTF is my favorite Tea Party person.

I do not like just about everything the TP is now; but its original intent was not all that bad even if I do not think some of the methods would have worked as intended.

Sorry Boulder, the real class warfare is a tiny number of people convincing the middle class that poor people receiving any assistance is the reason for all fiscal woes. This is where the Tea Party really lost me....

[Just the facts]

This thread make me wonder which side people were rooting for in 'Braveheart'. I can only assume a fair number of people were pulling for Longshanks and the Nobles.

[OKVision4U]

This thread make me wonder which side people were rooting for in 'Braveheart'. I can only assume a fair number of people were pulling for Longshanks and the Nobles.

I want "Freedom"....

...some people just want to be on the otherside, just to have an oposing view.

[Servicetech571]

A Simple Solution

[Swake]

I would 100% agree that a MUCH simpler tax code would be beneficial to all (something closer to a flat tax works for me) - we obviously just disagree that non-profits which truly serve the community deserve a tax exempt status.

In a flat tax, the wealthy, that own the vast majority of wealth would pay the same as the poor, who have nothing. It's a scam, it's a massive tax break for the most fortunate paid for the on backs of the middle class and poor.

[BBatesokc]

In a flat tax, the wealthy, that own the vast majority of wealth would pay the same as the poor, who have nothing. It's a scam, it's a massive tax break for the most fortunate paid for the on backs of the middle class and poor.

Guess its all in how you look at it and how truly 'flat' the tax is.

I've seen versions where the 'flat tax' (as in the percentage paid) is dependent on the total income made. So, someone making very little might only pay 2-4% and someone who's very wealthy may pay 10-25%.

Also, even if the rate was truly flat across the board (say 10%), then 10% of a million is far more than 10% of say $20,000 a year. Not to mention that many of the wealthiest already pay very little taxes - though most pay the majority.

[Swake]

Guess its all in how you look at it and how truly 'flat' the tax is.

I've seen versions where the 'flat tax' (as in the percentage paid) is dependent on the total income made. So, someone making very little might only pay 2-4% and someone who's very wealthy may pay 10-25%.

Also, even if the rate was truly flat across the board (say 10%), then 10% of a million is far more than 10% of say $20,000 a year. Not to mention that many of the wealthiest already pay very little taxes - though most pay the majority.

The truly wealth don't have to take an increase in their wealth as income the way you or I do. If ten million in stock gains ten percent in value but is not sold, is that income? If a property gains 15% in value, is that income? If you own a company that increases in value is that income?

When Steve Jobs went back to Apple, he was famously "paid" one dollar. Tax that.

Plus on top of income taxes there are all the regressive sales taxes and fees which as a percentage of wealth is almost nothing to the wealthy, but to a poor person can be a huge percentage of their income. Today even with our progressive tax rate on federal income the effective tax rate is already nearly flat with the wealthy actually paying less then other income quintiles. Flatten the federal income tax rate and the poor and middle class will be plain losers who will end of paying a much greater share of income and wealth in taxes than the wealthy. The "flat" tax is a scam being pushed by certain very, very wealthy people.

There are 85 humans today that have equal wealth to the bottom 3.5 billion people. 85.

[Snowman]

When Steve Jobs went back to Apple, he was famously "paid" one dollar. Tax that.

He also was payed with a lot of stock, which you could tax the transaction of ownership from the corporation to him, also the capital gain would be taxable if they ever sold the stock. Bonuses and dividents will also likely continue to be taxed as well.

[MWCGuy]

QUOTE=Just the facts;736885]Personally, I am sick and tired of the 1% worming their way out of taxes the rest of us have to pay. Like it or not, we tax the transfer of money in this country and when we allow stuff like this to happen we are allowing ourselves to be divided and conquered. [/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying but, I see that argument as "I am jealous someone has more than I do." Truth be told if we were in the group many classify as one percent we would probably be doing the same thing. After all at tax time, I don't know of anyone who pays anymore than what they absolutely have to. If we can declare a deduction, that lowers our tax bill, we claim it especially if the IRS says we can. I have never heard anyone say" Yeah, I could have taken that deduction but, I thought it was better if I paid in a little more.

I would prefer we went to a tax system that taxed the goods and services we buy instead of our income. You could break the sales tax down to low rates for survival items and higher rates for luxury items. We work for the money therefore; we should get to keep everything we make. As it is most of us don't really pay that much tax. If you are, you need to go re-submit your W-4 form. I used to set my deduction to zero to make sure I never had to pay anything. I got a nice refund every year (many of us forget that every year until after the New Year starts and it's time to file our taxes again. Thanks to advice from an accountant I know, I only pay in what I have to. If I owe anything, I save the money and pay it by Tax Day every year. My tax rate really is not all that bad at all. I am working class guy like yourself. I probably pay more for car insurance (good driving record) than I do on my taxes.

[BBatesokc]

The truly wealth don't have to take an increase in their wealth as income the way you or I do. If ten million in stock gains ten percent in value but is not sold, is that income? If a property gains 15% in value, is that income? If you own a company that increases in value is that income?

.....

I'm confused..... Are you saying the middle class and even lower income groups don't own any fluctuating stock, rental property or are self-employed? I've known plenty of people who qualify as 'poor' who own stock as part of their employment somewhere. I know people with little income that own rental property and even their own business. Or, are you just saying those evil rich people need to be taxed on those things?

I don't get this 'rich hate.' Personally, I've never known any 'poor' people living off the gov't that provided me with a job, technology, medical innovation or anything other than a headache.

I'm about as far from 'rich' as you can get, yet I own lots of stock, rent house, and my own company. Why should I (or anyone else) pay unrealized capitol gains taxes? Until they are realized I didn't directly benefit. No idea why this should not apply equally to all income levels.

Additionally, why in the world would anyone criticize Steve Jobs for agreeing to work for $1 a year? He also refused any other pay (bonus, performance, etc.). He already had more money than he could spend and he wanted to continue in his passion. Some people hate the rich so much, anything they do is 'evil.'

[Servicetech571]

QUOTE=Just the facts;736885]Personally, I am sick and tired of the 1% worming their way out of taxes the rest of us have to pay. Like it or not, we tax the transfer of money in this country and when we allow stuff like this to happen we are allowing ourselves to be divided and conquered.

I understand what you are saying but, I see that argument as "I am jealous someone has more than I do." Truth be told if we were in the group many classify as one percent we would probably be doing the same thing. After all at tax time, I don't know of anyone who pays anymore than what they absolutely have to. If we can declare a deduction, that lowers our tax bill, we claim it especially if the IRS says we can. I have never heard anyone say" Yeah, I could have taken that deduction but, I thought it was better if I paid in a little more.

I would prefer we went to a tax system that taxed the goods and services we buy instead of our income. You could break the sales tax down to low rates for survival items and higher rates for luxury items. We work for the money therefore; we should get to keep everything we make. As it is most of us don't really pay that much tax. If you are, you need to go re-submit your W-4 form. I used to set my deduction to zero to make sure I never had to pay anything. I got a nice refund every year (many of us forget that every year until after the New Year starts and it's time to file our taxes again. Thanks to advice from an accountant I know, I only pay in what I have to. If I owe anything, I save the money and pay it by Tax Day every year. My tax rate really is not all that bad at all. I am working class guy like yourself. I probably pay more for car insurance (good driving record) than I do on my taxes.[/QUOTE]

It's already being proposed

[Just the facts]

Silicon Valley billionaire compares treatment of America's rich to Nazi persecution of Jews - Telegraph

What the hell! When I was a right-wing Republican I was called a Nazi. Then I realized I had been duped, became a follower of the Austrian Economic Model, and now I am a Nazi again. I can't freak'in win.

[gopokes88]

The other night I was think about this in the context of workers being replaced by automation. If we could fast forward a 100 years to a time where all work was being done by robots what kind of life do you envision the people living? If you are like me you envision everyone on perpetual vacations. However, if I start at today and look at each day over the next 100 years I see the exact opposite happening as we slowly one by one fall into the poor class with no way out. I think that is what the above video is showing happened over the last 30 years.

Because those automated systems will manufacture and code themselves... Both of which are higher paying jobs then a minimum wage fast food job.

[Chadanth]

Silicon Valley billionaire compares treatment of America's rich to Nazi persecution of Jews - Telegraph

What the hell! When I was a right-wing Republican I was called a Nazi. Then I realized I had been duped, became a follower of the Austrian Economic Model, and now I am a Nazi again. I can't freak'in win.

Anyone who doesn't agree with you or I is a Nazi. Because it's very classy to compare people of differing opinions or methodology to a political movement that murdered 12 million people.

[Just the facts]

Because those automated systems will manufacture and code themselves... Both of which are higher paying jobs then a minimum wage fast food job.

But it only has to be coded once and if you ever watch "How it's made" there isn't a whole lot of human interaction left in the manufacturing world. Plus, if this didn't save money they wouldn't do it which kind of blows your "Both of which are higher paying jobs then a minimum wage fast food job" argument out of the water.

[Prunepicker]

Personally, I am sick and tired of the 1% worming their way out of taxes the
rest of us have to pay.

The players, owners and anybody associated with the NFL pay taxes.

[Prunepicker]

... Then I realized I had been duped, became a follower of the Austrian
Economic Model, and now I am a ... I can't freak'in win.

The nazi's (ym"sh) were Collectivists to the max. They didn't follow Austrian
economics. You are hereby absolved.

[Just the facts]

The players, owners and anybody associated with the NFL pay taxes.

This is where the lines get blurred. The NFL is not paying taxes - that is the whole point. The teams pay taxes, but the teams are NOT the NFL. The NFL is a tax-exempt organization and if you think they are paying taxes (perception), they aren't (reality). If you consider your perception to be the preferred scenario then you should support the NFL losing their tax-free status. That way your perception and reality are in agreement.

Let's turn this around and see if it becomes clearer. If the NFL was applying for Tax Exempt status on the grounds that they were supposed to further the cause of football (knowing that they sued the USFL out of existence and did nothing to help the XFL or UFL) would you support that?

[Just the facts]

It will be interesting to watch how this bill goes.

Senators try to sack NFL's non-profit status - Washington Times

Sens. Tom Coburn, Oklahoma Republican, and Angus King, Maine Independent, have started a push to end the not-for-profit status for the National Football League, saying it’s only fair to taxpayers.

We are about to find out just how committed D.C. is to the 1%.

[MWCGuy]

DC is a class of elitists by themselves. These days you have millionaires fighting with millionaires. All those millionaires are controlled by the billionaires that reside within their respective parties. The difference between the two is this: Democrats are born into money and most of them were allowed a lifestyle where all they had to do was ask and their wish was granted. Republicans were also born into money however, there respective familes made them kind of work for it but not really. (EX: Junior is already on the board of directors before he is 30 while other employees have to climb the ladder and land there in their late 40's and early 50's. Neither group has any earthly idea on what it takes to make it everyday in America. If they did, I think things would be working alot differently. People that could support themselves would not be allowed to participate in social programs that were designed to help those who are truly in need instead of those who want an easy way out. Big corporations would be turned away when they asked for big loans to keep their companies afloat. It would be sink or swim.

What it all comes down to is we are learning the hardway why children need to be taught a solid work ethic and not be given everything their heart desires. To be honest, I think we are heading for another Great Depression. It all stemmed from the phrase "I want my kids to have it better than I did." At one time that phrase meant, a roof over their head, meals on the table at every meal, running water and money to cover the needs of life like clothes, shoes, medical care, school supplies, etc. Now that phrase means a spoilled life with everything the kid could ever want. More or less a life Robin Leech would talk about on "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous."

What happened to us? Why did we ever let ourselves stop having respect for money? When did we stop understanding the true value of a dollar and the work involved to earn it?

During my childhood years adults would be all over you for wasting money. Now it's pretty much encouraged.