Do casinos make money on the concerts they bring in?

[warreng88]

I drove down to Dallas this past weekend and noticed the Winstar casino was bringing in ZZ Top, Reba McEntire, Willie Nelson, Flo Rida, Train, Alan Jackson and Robin Thicke all by March of next year.
The Grand Casino Hotel & resort is bringing in The Wanted.
The Joint @ The Hard Rock Casino in Tulsa is bringing in ZZ Top and Harry Connick Jr.

Note: I am not a big fan of any of the artists listed above but they are all pretty big named acts who can sell a lot of tickets.

So, my question is: do the casinos/tribes make money off of the concerts they bring in or is purely to lure tourists to come and stay at the hotels and spend money at the casinos?

[kevinpate]

Ticker prices are about what you would expect for venues that size and artists of that caliber. Most of the ones you named are on the downhill side of their careers. Mind you, it's a long gentle slope and not some steep cliff, but at the same time I don't think any of them are still in the sold out the full arena tier anymore.

[warreng88]

Ticker prices are about what you would expect for venues that size and artists of that caliber. Most of the ones you named are on the downhill side of their careers. Mind you, it's a long gentle slope and not some steep cliff, but at the same time I don't think any of them are still in the sold out the full arena tier anymore.

Reba, Flo rida, Train and Robin Thicke are all playing large arenas on their current tours. Due to the whole Miley Cyrus/VMA debacle, Robin thicke is currently one of the most popular acts in America (I personally hate his music and think he looks like a sleezy Michael Buble, but to each his own). I know several of them are playing just to make their money, but Winstar is bringing in some huge names for the concerts down there with only 3,500 seats.

[RadicalModerate]

I'm fairly sure that if The Casinos aren't making money on has-been acts like Reba McI, Willie The N, and/or A.JackzN they would be rollin' in dough if they managed to beg Dying Fetus, Exhumed, Waking The Cadaver or Abiotic into performing at their venues.

Of course, then they would be confronted with all of the legal costs of defending the charges of stealing talent from The Chameleon Room.

Is Tony Burnout on an upcoming playlist anywherez?
He cut out his heart and left it in San Francisco. =)

[ljbab728]

I'm fairly sure that if The Casinos aren't making money on has-been acts like Reba McI, Willie The N, and/or A.JackzN they would be rollin' in dough if they managed to beg Dying Fetus, Exhumed, Waking The Cadaver or Abiotic into performing at their venues.

Of course, then they would be confronted with all of the legal costs of defending the charges of stealing talent from The Chameleon Room.

Is Tony Burnout on an upcoming playlist anywherez?
He cut out his heart and left it in San Francisco. =)

Be careful, RM. I'll tell Leslie what you think about over the hill acts. LOL

[RadicalModerate]

Leslie? You mean that old time Speaker Company dude? . . .
(oh. you meant Ms. Gore . . . she's very different. nevermind =)

This reminds me that Ginny Arnell should go back on The Casino/Chameleon Room Concert Circuit


Why . . . Maybe The Casinos could even book The Casinos


Stranger things have happened . . . Right?
Yet, perhaps it would be better--making moneywise--if The Casino Indians bought The Diamond Ballroom
and featured THIS group as The (grand) Opening Act . . .



If I was a fledgling promoter, I'd be thinking seriously about all that.

[Urbanized]

Casinos have upset the whole balance in the concert industry because they overpay for acts AND ask the artists to play shorter-than-standard sets. They ask for shorter sets to get the attendees out onto the casino floor ASAP. So when you ask if they make money, you can't just factor tickets sold. You have to ask if tickets sold plus getting a few thousand extra people to filter through the casino was worth it. Of course, the answer is yes.

The downside is that acts that used to play larger venues in the city now play smaller places in the boondocks instead, and if they can be bothered to play here too are conditioned to ask for more money and expect to play less music.

[RadicalModerate]

I guess this is but one more facet of the digital revolution that led to the demise of mom and pop record stores.
And a large chunk of The Music Industry.

I might go to The Zoo Amphitheater to see A Tribute to the T.A.M.I. Show, but I dang sure ain't drivin' out to no casino on the wilderness of the plains of the hinterlands . . . heck, I'll just tune my radio into KOSU/The Spy and listen to Dutch Music that sounds a lot like The Kinks o' the '60s.

(btw: the like button seems to have disappeared again. count this as a Like for the post immediately preceding this one.)

[bluedogok]

They are good money for the bands, my cousin's group does quite a few casino shows every year and a bunch of them out here in the west. They have played some in Oklahoma this year. They are doing a Christmas Show at The Poncan Theater in December.

[RadicalModerate]

The Poncan Theater??? In Ponca City????

Sounds like they are on the cusp of The Big Time!
(unlike Willie Nelson, Reba McIntyre and a host of jilllions)

Any chance of an Easter Show at The Marland Mansion in March or April?
(the old time, big oil boys, used to have a gambling den in the basement with an escape tunnel and everything.)

JUST KIDDING. (geez =)

[bluedogok]

They know what their position is now, they are enjoying it more doing weekend dates and heading back to Nashville during the week rather than the full year tours they were doing in the 80's back in their heyday when it seemed like they were losing ACM and Grammy Group of the Year awards to Alabama every year.

[RadicalModerate]

Cool Cousin. Knows how to put things in perspective. =)

(hell . . . far as i know they ain't yet put slot machines up there at The Marland Mansion anyhows . . .
so the whole Casinoesque Deal don't apply noways.)

Why, I'd bet--if I was a gambling man (which I'm not)--that your cousin's band could probably do a pretty darn good cover version of this old tune by Robert Frost. Especially with a little pedal steel or dobro in the background . . . =)

=======
1. The Road Not Taken
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. 20
======

O'course, the Casino Crowd
would probably be less than likely
to catch the drift of the tune
than were the Drifters about
catching the underlying drift
of Bob Seger's whining,
fading, bitch and moan
in regard to
the trials and tribulations
of being on the road
as a musician
that was such
a big hit
back in
the
day.
=)

[Bigrayok]

Just curious Blue Dog. Who is your cousin?

Bigray in Ok

[bluedogok]

Just curious Blue Dog. Who is your cousin?

Bigray in Ok

Paul Gregg, bass player/vocals in Restless Heart. My cousin and two others are from Oklahoma, he is from Altus, the guitar player Nicoma Park and keyboard player is from Bartlesville.

[Urbanized]

Restless Heart had multiple gold albums, crossover success, and multiple number ones on the country chart. I think they can play the Poncan with their heads held high. And Ponca City is bigger/nicer/wealthier than many here in OKC realize. Besides, the Poncan is a stunner of a venue, one that unfortunately we can only dream of having here.

[warreng88]

So when you ask if they make money, you can't just factor tickets sold. You have to ask if tickets sold plus getting a few thousand extra people to filter through the casino was worth it. Of course, the answer is yes.

I know they make money on bringing people to the casinos, spending money at restaurants, drinks, hotel rooms, etc. I understand that. My questions is, do they make money off the concerts themselves. In other words, if you were to factor in just the cost of bringing the artist in, lights, crew, sound, etc versus tickets sold, does that make money? Does it break even?

[Dubya61]

Restless Heart had multiple gold albums, crossover success, and multiple number ones on the country chart. I think they can play the Poncan with their heads held high. And Ponca City is bigger/nicer/wealthier than many here in OKC realize. Besides, the Poncan is a stunner of a venue, one that unfortunately we can only dream of having here.

There has been a lot of grass-roots / citizen action to keep the Poncan alive and in the best possible condition.
and, in a thread crossing reference: They even play big band concerts there!

[FritterGirl]

Casinos have upset the whole balance in the concert industry because they overpay for acts AND ask the artists to play shorter-than-standard sets. They ask for shorter sets to get the attendees out onto the casino floor ASAP. So when you ask if they make money, you can't just factor tickets sold. You have to ask if tickets sold plus getting a few thousand extra people to filter through the casino was worth it. Of course, the answer is yes.

The downside is that acts that used to play larger venues in the city now play smaller places in the boondocks instead, and if they can be bothered to play here too are conditioned to ask for more money and expect to play less music.

Exactly what Urbanized said. Casinos really are the biggest threat to the local music scene, and especially the type of independent show that plays the Civic Center Music Hall, for example. When most artists go out on tour, they work with promoters to secure a certain "guarantee" per house. Knowing different markets are able to take on different costs, this "guarantee" is often based on a sliding scale. The casinos are always willing to pay top dollar for the artist, charge what would be the nominal or average ticket price per seat, knowing that the upswing in gambling and alcohol sales (and in some cases, hotel room stays), is all part of the deal. They look at it as part of the per-capita marketing investment for the casino as a whole as opposed to a concert facility that would look only to sell tickets.

[FritterGirl]

I know they make money on bringing people to the casinos, spending money at restaurants, drinks, hotel rooms, etc. I understand that. My questions is, do they make money off the concerts themselves. In other words, if you were to factor in just the cost of bringing the artist in, lights, crew, sound, etc versus tickets sold, does that make money? Does it break even?

I would say they probably break even or take a mild loss, although it's hard to know without knowing what their venue costs are, and whether or what they have to outsource in order to meet the artist requirements per the rider, etc. It all depends upon what their internal costs are.

[Mike_M]

They make plenty of money because the Casino itself is the destination. Ask any promoter and they'll tell you, ticket sales barely pays for utilities at a venue. Where they make money is on liquor, drinks, food, and merchandise sales. Casinos probably make at least 10 times as much money as a traditional concert hall because they have way more ways to spend money once you're there waiting for the bands to come out. So ya, they make crazy money on this.

Also they make money because OKC's concert venues are crap. All they need are paved parking lots and clean bathrooms, and most here are missing one or both.

[warreng88]

I would say they probably break even or take a mild loss, although it's hard to know without knowing what their venue costs are, and whether or what they have to outsource in order to meet the artist requirements per the rider, etc. It all depends upon what their internal costs are.

That is the answer I have been looking for. Thank you. I know the casinos in general make money, but I was asking specifically about the music venue.

[bluedogok]

The owner hopes the door covers the band cost, so all the liquor sales go to them. My cousins grew up in Altus with the guy who owns the Cowboy's country bar chain, it was interesting to sit on the bus talking with him and the band after sound check or the show, picked up quite a few things from those conversations. The first time that I saw them after I moved to DFW (1991) it was at Cowboys on Gaston, they broke the attendance record of Garth Brooks (about 800 more than the number on the door) and calculating the ticket price by the number meant the door covered the band fee. Attendance of 3,300 meant a lot of bar for the house.

[OKCNDN]

Oh boy where do I even start. I can tell you from fact that there is massive corruption going on in the OK casino industry. I can't speak for every tribe but I am very, very familiar with the situation at one of the OKC area casinos to the point of reviewing inside documentation and audit reports. That Tribe has been infiltrated by lawyers who are up to no good and that tribe is no longer in control of their own casino. Sure they get money from the profits. But the casino manager hired to run things has gone from asking about things to telling the Tribe what they are going to do with their casino. The Tribal governor is there only for their signature. The casino may be in the process of having the majority of the profits taken away anyhow.

So there is a little background on what I know of casino business around here. The casino I know about has a BUNCH of concerts in the city-area, probably the most of any casino (well not probably, actually the most). Concerts are just a big scam to get money out of the casino and into the hands of those with questionable ethics. The general manager of this casino doesn't even have a gaming license. He can't step foot into the casino or otherwise he would be in violation of gaming law. He gets a several thousand dollar (five figures) bonus for every concert held at the casino. He evens owns the booking company from which the concerts are booked. So it is to his benefit to book concerts. That is a big no-no under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA), to work for a casino and be a vendor of that casino. Yet it is happening and has been happening for years. No one cares, definitely not the State of OK. All they want is their cut.

I doubt if casinos consistently make money off concerts themselves . $100,000 was spent to book STP several years ago. Tent rent was $25,000 per event with an additional setup cost (what that was I can't recall). Then add in security, utilities, extra personnel, cleanup, etc. and the cost is well over $150,000. And there were only 2500 tickets at average price of $45 for approximately $112,500 in revenue. That doesn't cover the cost, not even close.

Now the STP artist fee was high at $100,000. Other acts don't get as much. But STP was also sold out. Other acts don't even come close to selling out. In December 2011 Jacob Dylan had sold a total of 40 tickets two days before his show. The casino ended up making it free for all ages to generate an audience because they couldn't get a buying audience. Big loss on that one for the casino. Not all losses are that big. Some concerts may make a couple measly thousand, break-even or just lost a couple ten thousand (even with legitimate spike in revenues from other casino products). It's not like every show is a bloodbath for the casino.

Now a show will bring a little extra business. How much is up for debate. There should be a huge spike in business if the casino is doing it for the cross-over revenues. There isn't. Not at the books I have looked at. Not enough to justify the continued booking of concerts. What happens at this casino to make a profit appear on the casino books is that many revenues from other casino products are attributed to the concert. An example would be restaurant revenues are handled to appear that the concert had bought in all of that revenue; as if the restaurant would not have earned any revenue but for the concert. However the proper way to handle this is to only attribute revenues above the average for that day to the concert, only attribute the spike to the concert not the norm. This is because the restaurant would have generated a certain amount of revenues had there been no concert at all, in this case that amount could be correctly estimated to be the average. The same treatment is given to other areas. Gaming club membership points are attributed to the concert being held. Alcohol sales are all attributed to appear to have all been generated by the concert. No souvenir shop or hotel at this casino so they cannot have brought in revenues. Now this is handled differently for different shows. In some shows all alcohol revenues may be attributed to the concert, other shows only half may be attributed to the show. Whatever it takes to make the books show a profit for the show.

Now why continue to host concerts which are a money-pit? So the general manager can get his bonus. So his booking company can get profits on their end. So the tent rental company can get theirs. That may explain why there is such a massive amount of show at this casino. Every show is a cash bonanza for him. And it works for them. Why? One reason is because the casino brings in a massive amount of money, OVER A BILLION. The casino can overpay for services, overpay for supplies, continue on a branch of operations that continually loses money because the casino has so much revenue they can lose millions due to mismanagement, lose millions due to embezzlement, lose millions due to overpaying AND STILL MAKE A PROFIT. They can have money walk out the door AND STILL MAKE A PROFIT. Casinos are a huge business in Oklahoma. I would have to say the biggest, if not then one of the top two.

Again not speaking on the specifics of every casino, just saying at this casino there are some extra hands in the pot. And have heard (at a level that is more than just hearsay, a you-have-to-have-been-there type of thing) at plenty other casinos the same thing is happening.