Is Norman going downhill??

[Spartan]

According to 2 different sources the risk of dying from a delayed response is significantly greater than being hit and killed by a car in areas without speed bumps.

There have been several people die in fires just in Norman in the last 10 or 15 years… There are several medical emergencies virtually every day just in Norman where seconds do matter. I hope you never have family member or friend who needs the quickest possible response.

More traffic cops would likly be more effective.

No, you have one source that claims it saw two sources.

Norman also did add a ton of police officers, as if it needed more.

[rcjunkie]

The suggestion that these said speed bumps reduce travel time or create a hazard is pure BS. My daughter lives in a W. Norman addition that has these speed tables and you can safely travel over them at the posted speed limit. These bumps/tables are designed to slow down speeders, not make traffic go slower then the posted speed limit.

[bluedogok]

All the "speed tables" that I have ever encountered would beat you or the car to death if you tried to take them at the posted speed. The front end end of my car would scrape on the ones in our neighborhood in Austin if I went more than 10-15 mph.

[Spartan]

I like using speed tables for traffic calming more than excessive stop signs or worse, stop lights that take minutes to turn green.

[catch22]

Narrow the streets, add on street parking. People will drive slower.

[kevinpate]

All the "speed tables" that I have ever encountered would beat you or the car to death if you tried to take them at the posted speed. The front end end of my car would scrape on the ones in our neighborhood in Austin if I went more than 10-15 mph.

urban tanks solve that issue. love mine, old though it may be.

[soonerguru]

There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.

It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population.
Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.

This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.

The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.

Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more.

Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot. (And by the way, growing up, Norman was just as weird if not weirder in some ways than Austin!).

[Bunty]

This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.

The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.

Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more.

Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot.

It's very easy to see why Norman is happy with the way things are, considering it has a population growth rate that surpasses 15% since 2000. Most cities would dearly wish to be in that position.

[soonerguru]

Another thought: the "progressives" in Norman (and I consider myself progressive), are often anti-development. The flip side to them is the "develop at all costs" faction. It's a weird dichotomy.

The bumper sticker "Don't Edmond My Norman" came out about 20 years too late. Decisions were made in the early '90s that have led Norman to where it finds itself today -- another suburb.

Because the city never viewed itself as a city, it never focused on job creation. As a result, Norman can only sustain itself as a university town / suburb.

The right leadership could change this, but entrenched interests create major obstacles.

Also, the young, "hip" crowd is either politically disengaged or transient. It's correct that the bankers and developers pretty much control the city's direction, with some substanceless bones like "inclusiveness" thrown toward the hippies and intellectuals.

I agree with the poster above that I dread Boren's retirement.

[soonerguru]

It's very easy to see why Norman is happy with the way things are, considering it has a population growth rate that surpasses 15% since 2000. Most cities would dearly wish to be in that position.

True, but this growth is almost entirely suburban in nature; this is not the kind of "growth" I think people are talking about here.

[ou48A]

The suggestion that these said speed bumps reduce travel time or create a hazard is pure BS. My daughter lives in a W. Norman addition that has these speed tables and you can safely travel over them at the posted speed limit. These bumps/tables are designed to slow down speeders, not make traffic go slower then the posted speed limit.

Then I would strongly suggest that you talk to those who drive vehicles with heavy suspensions systems.
I have driven many miles in heavy trucks. I know how they handle, even on rough lease roads. I live on a corner lot were when working in my yard I have seen many different facials slowing down to negotiate several speed tables that are with in eye sight of my yard.
I have talked to the drivers of ambulances and fire trucks. The ambulance drive must slow down when they have an injured patient to prevent trauma and also so they don’t cause injuries to their personnel.
This I assure you is no BS issue for them. But if you don’t know any better, it might be.

[ou48A]

This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.

The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.

Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more.

Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot. (And by the way, growing up, Norman was just as weird if not weirder in some ways than Austin!).

To the extent that Rosenthal's has focus on inclusiveness it has hampered Norman's growth. Quality job growth sure doesn’t seem to be a priority for her or the city of Norman. By being distracted even by just one minute from making Norman economically stronger it hurts everybody, including the inclusiveness community.
It should be the number one goal and normal practice of city leaders to work hard for a diversity of quality jobs. This includes making Norman the most attractive location for new and relocating business.
City leadership has correctly heard the complaint that Norman is the most difficult place in Oklahoma to do business. It should be a priority to remove this fact / perception.

This is more about misguided priority’s that really don't work toward directly helping the vast majority of Norman residents.

[soonerguru]

To the extent that Rosenthal's has focus on inclusiveness it has hampered Norman's growth. Quality job growth sure doesn’t seem to be a priority for her or the city of Norman. By being distracted even by just one minute from making Norman economically stronger it hurts everybody, including the inclusiveness community.
It should be the number one goal and normal practice of city leaders to work hard for a diversity of quality jobs. This includes making Norman the most attractive location for new and relocating business.
City leadership has correctly heard the complaint that Norman is the most difficult place in Oklahoma to do business. It should be a priority to remove this fact / perception.

This is more about misguided priority’s that really don't work toward directly helping the vast majority of Norman residents.

You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts?

Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.

I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.

[venture]

You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts?

Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.

I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.

I think it is interesting to note that the head of the Norman Chamber put his hat in the ring today for mayor next year. I wonder how well he'll handle the whole forged Switzer letter? Sounds like a swell guy to trust there!

I don't get his hostility towards the inclusive thing either. Norman is a very mixed town. Politically it is pretty well balanced...it was still favoring Romney by 55 to 45. However when you look at Norman, the core of Norman from I-35 on the west , Tecumseh on the North, East 24th to the West, and Highway 9 on the south is solidly democrat. Around that is very red. We could very well be looking at all these suburban transplants, that typically go to these other rim areas, are the more conservative bunch that don't agree with the mushy inclusive policies. Whereas the longer time residents of Norman and the college kids in the Central sections are more liberal side with the inclusive/melting pot ideals.

[johnpwoods]

[QUOTE=venture79;599059]I think it is interesting to note that the head of the Norman Chamber put his hat in the ring today for mayor next year. I wonder how well he'll handle the whole forged Switzer letter? Sounds like a swell guy to trust there!

I wanted to correct the comment above. First, Mr. Sherman was the Chairman of the Board (a volunteer position) for the Norman Chamber three years ago. Neither myself as the President and CEO of the Norman Chamber, nor our current Chair of the Board or our Board members are running for mayor. Finally the Switzer letter you mention was a product of the State Chamber of Commerce, of which is a complete and separate entity.

Finally - economic development and creating a healthy vibrant community is the responsibility of many parties. Business leaders, community activists, the city government, the Chamber, non profits..etc etc. I believe our Chamber has and will continue to be a strong advocate for those things that make Norman a great community. We have been heavily involved in advocating for a high density ordinance, pursuing a quality of life package for Norman, pressing the passage of the Transportation Bond Issue, and a host of other issues to lengthy to name in this thread with a meeting I'm heading into.

I appreciate the great dialogue of OKC TALK

John Woods
President and CEO
Norman Chamber of Commerce

[venture]

I wanted to correct the comment above. First, Mr. Sherman was the Chairman of the Board (a volunteer position) for the Norman Chamber three years ago. Neither myself as the President and CEO of the Norman Chamber, nor our current Chair of the Board or our Board members are running for mayor.

Thanks for clearing that up. The article in the Transcript made it sound like he was the current head.

Finally the Switzer letter you mention was a product of the State Chamber of Commerce, of which is a complete and separate entity.

So your organization didn't support the passage of SQ 766 then that will raise the taxes on residential property owners?

[ou48A]

You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts?

Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.

I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.

It’s not hostility; it’s about wasting time on miss placed priority’s that won’t help 90% of the population in any meaningful way. The city should be prioritizing what helps everybody and that’s good jobs that create prosperity and a better community for all and not just a small group.

Whatever is in the past is in the past and it does very little good to look back other than to see that we don’t keep making the same mistakes over and over.


This is a bottom line issue. Prosperity cures many problems!

[kevinpate]

Prosperity cures many problems!

aye, but not all. Even a well to do person and his family can be subjected to ugly and distasteful discrimination by folks who insist that lemming like adherence to particular perspectives are the one true way to see certain matters.

[ou48A]

aye, but not all. Even a well to do person and his family can be subjected to ugly and distasteful discrimination by folks who insist that lemming like adherence to particular perspectives are the one true way to see certain matters.

No doubt that is true, in a very small number of cases.

But I would bet that for every instance that you speak of that creating 1000’s of new high wage jobs would solve millions of more problems.
This is what I am talking about…. Everybody has problems, but it’s wrong not to give full attention on what helps the vast majority. Great jobs give increased opportunity to all… They allow everyone to address many of their problems. Virtually all of the so called minorities are helped by increased opportunities, are they not?

[kevinpate]

Possibly, though perhaps 4 out of 5 teens/adults bullied to the point of suicide might disagree ... if only someone had thought them worth the time to ask.

[ou48A]

Possibly, though perhaps 4 out of 5 teens/adults bullied to the point of suicide might disagree ... if only someone had thought them worth the time to ask.

And good jobs can and do help pay for counseling and for many other medical problems that help reduce suicide rates and other deaths.

Work and a good job is one of the best things to help low self-esteem.

Prosperity brings increased opportunities for donations that can help find cures and prevent deaths.

[Questor]

Norman's going downhill because its planning commission and city council are a dysfunctional mess. Having set through more of both meetings than I ever care to again, and watching discussion about not just issues I care about but everything going in front of them, it is really kind of scary some of the things I have noticed. Often times it seems like planning commissioners just ignore residents who come to speak. On one or two occasions I've seen one jackass even laughing and more or less being extremely rude to an older resident who was clearly nervous but trying to exercise her political right to speak about whatever it was she was there for. I've watched planning commissioners make googly eyes to lawyers for developers that they clearly knew and were 'empathing' messages to during deliberations. I have never, ever seen these types of things happen in OKC.

I don't even care to address city staff.

As for the city council... after watching many votes go down, I sometimes wonder if the east and west sides of town truly hate one another. Watching voting patterns on the horseshoe could leave one with the impression that one side is out to sabotage the other. I think perhaps though that the true story is that they are just of such different mindsets that they simply never agree on anything.

I don't see how a city ripe with such bureaucratic nonsense could ever be successful in anything. I think it explains a lot as to what has been going on recently around town.

[Bunty]

If Norman has a ward system of city government, then maybe that hinders progress.

[Questor]

You know the reality is that Norman's city government isn't structured all that differently from OKC's... it's a ward based system with a figurehead mayor and a professional city planner doing most of the work. There are various commissions making recommendations up to the city council. I actually don't think the structure is the problem. I think it's a people problem. I think city staff are just too 'small town,' and I think most of the elected officials are in over their heads. With respect to the latter I think that is because most of the folks serving have backgrounds in education, or small businesses, and so on... while in OKC and Tulsa you have former broadcast journalists, businessmen, medical professionals, and professional politicians serving. That can be both good and bad... and it is certainly a refreshing thing having 'normal' people involved in politics, but it can also be a big detriment when you are talking about needing to have some serious forward-thinking momentum present on the horseshoe. I mean at least OKC goes out and tries to employ people who have very good reputations among big and large cities for its planning staff... I am not sure that Norman has ever made that effort, or that they aren't simply drawing from a small-town focused pool. Norman's a much smaller town than OKC and I realize that, but at the same time I don't understand why they aren't trying to draw from suburban Dallas or suburban Denver planners instead of middle of nowheresville. So again I think this goes back to vision, a lack of one, and it having a big impact on Norman.

[lasomeday]

How could Norman go downhill when it never was uphill?