MAPS 3 approaching...

[metro]

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Oklahoma City nears decision time on possible MAPS 3
BY RANDY KREHBIEL - Tulsa World
Published: April 2, 2009Buzz up!

TULSA — Oklahoma City civic leaders are considering whether to put a MAPS 3 proposal before voters or let lapse the 1 percent sales tax credited with boosting the city’s image, Mayor Mick Cornett said Wednesday at a Rotary Club of Tulsa luncheon.

"We’re trying to determine whether the citizens would like that penny to lapse or maintain the momentum we’ve built up over the past few years,” Cornett said.

The first MAPS — Metropolitan Area Projects — involved $363 million in capital projects, including the Bricktown Ballpark, the Ford Center and a new downtown library.

The second MAPS featured renovation or replacement of more than 100 area schools at a cost of $470 million.

The tax is set to expire on March 31, 2010, which means a vote on extending it would have to occur before the end of this year, Cornett said.

If a third MAPS proposal is put forward, it is most likely to include a new convention center, a large park in space created by the relocation of Interstate 40 through downtown Oklahoma City, and possibly a public transportation initiative.

Cornett favors such a component, but said, "it’s hard to pass public transit when you don’t have traffic congestion.”

Cornett said Oklahoma City’s economy has slowed considerably since last fall and appears to be "pretty flat” now. Nevertheless, he said, Devon Energy still plans to break ground later this year on a 950-foot skyscraper that will be the fifth-tallest building west of the Mississippi River.

[Midtowner]

MAPS projects need to follow the formula of something for downtown and something for the rest of the city to continue to be successful. It's log rolling on a much grander scale. The folks in the inner city, NW, (nice) SW and downtown will vote for it because of the convention center and park. The rest of the city will vote for it because of public transportation because although there's really no problem with traffic here, cars have become less affordable and less attainable for many people -- not to mention the fact that many of us would prefer to let someone else do the driving so long as the method of transportation was quick and reliable.

[Jesseda]

i wish they would builda park like the park in santee california, its called santee lakes, very pretty, great family day outing, it has everything for a family park outing.

[kevinpate]

> when you don’t have traffic congestion

OKC's mayor and I apparently travel very different routes or travel the same routes at very different times of the day. I sit in way too many 4 lane divided 'parking lots' to concur with the above.

[Jesseda]

agree with kevinpate, try driving more than 25 miles a hour for 5 miles on interstate I-44 from s.w 134th to the airport road exit, 4 out of 5 days around 7:30 in the morning its bumper to bumper sometimes at stand stills, a lot of times at a crawl.

[Nawfside OKC]

yes parks,the beginning of river development(C2S) and a convention center should be the focus of MAPS III if my taxes have any say so..

[wsucougz]

After reading the research on Blair's blog and thinking about it all a bit, I'm not so warm on the convention center idea anymore. $400 million?

If we really want to set ourselves apart, we need to get a little more creative. Take the $400 million and completely rebuild the OKC streetcar system. That will raise some eyebrows.

Link to blog: imagiNATIVEamerica A Convention Center IS NOT About Quality of Life

Other than a convention center, what would you have the city do with $400 million?

[LIL_WAYNE_4_PREZIDENT08]

Other than a convention center, what would you have the city do with $400 million?

give it to the citizens

[betts]

I'm neutral on the convention center, but am definitely wanted us to do all of the downtown park work. I too would like to see a great downtown trolley system, especially since I think the park will bring futher development to downtown and the C2S area, which will require better transportation in that area. With C2S, the downtown and surrounds will be too big to traverse entirely by foot. I'm worried, however, with the economy the way it is, that the people who like to exaggerate the financial impact of the penny tax on all of us will delude the voting public into turning it down. Maybe it would be better to wait a year and let people realize that the tax has lapsed and they don't really have a significant amount of extra money in their pocket. Not sure. Hopefully the city will gauge support for MAPS3 before promoting it, because I think it would be far better in the long run to wait a year than to lose an election.

[OKCMallen]

C2S, downtown park, transit are my big things. I'm iffy on the convention center, too. If it's an important core of C2S, then whatever, but I'm not all that sold on the idea that it's going to be cost-effective.

[SouthsideSooner]

agree with kevinpate, try driving more than 25 miles a hour for 5 miles on interstate I-44 from s.w 134th to the airport road exit, 4 out of 5 days around 7:30 in the morning its bumper to bumper sometimes at stand stills, a lot of times at a crawl.

There is no mass transit solution that is going to change that or get you there quicker, that is within the realm of what MAPS 3 can accomplish.

Any mass transit proposal is going to have to be very well thought out and make sense to a majority of voters who know that they will rarely if ever use it and who also know that it will have very little effect on any traffic congestion that currently exists.

Here's an interesting quote that was posted in another thread from a story about Kansas City that hits pretty close to home...

Even worse, city and regional issues seem to result in plenty of money for new expressions of wannabe grandiosity. One notable example: plans to build a $700 million-plus light-rail line, the kind of thing that has become the sine qua non for the "monkey see, monkey do" school of urban policymakers across the country.

This project makes little sense in a region with a well-below-average percentage of jobs in its downtown core - roughly around 7% – with one of the lowest shares of transit-riding residents in the nation. The relative lack of traffic makes a rail system less sensible than could be argued for higher-density urban corridors, where it at least can be imagined that many would give up their cars.

Kansas City and the Great Plains is a Zone of Sanity | Newgeography.com

Trying to do too much with mass transit can be a black hole for MAPS dollars that could leave very little money for anything else.

[Luke]

give it to the citizens

How novel.

$400 million divided by 600,000 OKC folks... what's that $700 or so? Of course if you're gonna give it right back, why take it in the first place?

[kevinpate]

> Maybe it would be better to wait a year and let people realize that
> the tax has lapsed and they don't really have a significant amount
> of extra money in their pocket.

I doubt there are many politicians in our state who would advance such a gamble.
The concept of the temporary sales tax was brillant and will likely remain. John Q gets to continue to believe he can make it go away after X years, and the politicos keep coming up with new items to tie it to.

Objects in motion stay in motion, so does the 'temporary' extra penny sales tax.

[metro]

I'm neutral on the convention center, but am definitely wanted us to do all of the downtown park work. I too would like to see a great downtown trolley system, especially since I think the park will bring futher development to downtown and the C2S area, which will require better transportation in that area. With C2S, the downtown and surrounds will be too big to traverse entirely by foot. I'm worried, however, with the economy the way it is, that the people who like to exaggerate the financial impact of the penny tax on all of us will delude the voting public into turning it down. Maybe it would be better to wait a year and let people realize that the tax has lapsed and they don't really have a significant amount of extra money in their pocket. Not sure. Hopefully the city will gauge support for MAPS3 before promoting it, because I think it would be far better in the long run to wait a year than to lose an election.

I'm pretty sure the "guaging" has been done and is constantly reviewed. I do disagree with you on timing. I think it would be ideal to not let it expire. Letting something continue is easier than having to go back and correct. Continuation would lead to continuous tax collection and not delaying the project at least another year, etc. Plus if we vote on it this year and it doesn't pass, then the plan can always be modified to fit "voter demands" and go back up for vote the following year. I'm pretty confident despite the economy that it will pass, but if the market tanks to 3,000 in the 2nd half of the year (which is also when vote is expected), then that might change everything. Me? I'm still optimistic and think it will pass this year.

[sgray]

I think it's quite interesting how, now that the package is coming up for vote soon, his tone on the public transit issue is shifting into that "gray space". Who would've expected any different though? Wonder how much kickback he is getting from the 'energy' industry for this move? I notice the same old talking points.

Interestingly as well, is the fact that no one seems to be asking him, in plain view of the public, about the additional lanes in the cross-town. So, Mr Cornett, if we don't have a growing traffic problem, then what's up with the ten-lanes of crosstown highway and constant highway work? Not to mention, in-town street widening and adding of intersections all over.

What a hoot. Predictable, as always.

[bornhere]

I think the hoteliers are going to be pretty insistent that there be a convention center in MAPS 3. I have also been told by someone I consider reliable that several of the key people who endorsed MAPS and M4K expect some 'payback' in MAPS 3, ie, something that might benefit them whether it benefits the city as a whole or not.

[metro]

Not surprised by Mick if he pulls a move for political gain, he's gearing up for District 5 seat again, but sgray, you forget, the Crosstown is already carrying much more than it was designed to handle, the new I-40 will be catching up with what traffic we already do have, and only allow a little bit of growth. That coupled with the new boulevard should hopefully hold us for decades to come, if not indefinitely if we get a good mass transit system.

[OKCMallen]

I think it's quite interesting how, now that the package is coming up for vote soon, his tone on the public transit issue is shifting into that "gray space". Who would've expected any different though? Wonder how much kickback he is getting from the 'energy' industry for this move? I notice the same old talking points.

Interestingly as well, is the fact that no one seems to be asking him, in plain view of the public, about the additional lanes in the cross-town. So, Mr Cornett, if we don't have a growing traffic problem, then what's up with the ten-lanes of crosstown highway and constant highway work? Not to mention, in-town street widening and adding of intersections all over.

What a hoot. Predictable, as always.

Seriously though, there is a salient point here. I would like public transit in OKC. I would use it sometimes. I wouldn't give up my car, and I don't experience traffic problems that would compel me to give up my car for my commute.

[warreng88]

...the new I-40 will be catching up with what traffic we already do have, and only allow a little bit of growth. That coupled with the new boulevard should hopefully hold us for decades to come, if not indefinitely if we get a good mass transit system.

I was just going to post the same thing. The original I-40 was built to hold 48,000 vehicles a day and currently holds 120,000 a day. The new one will be designed to carry 170,000 a day.

[bretthexum]

I am for the convention center, then a light rail from the airport to convention center to get all of those conventioneers to their meetings.

[SoonerLakers]

I am for the convention center, then a light rail from the airport to convention center to get all of those conventioneers to their meetings.

I agree with you Brett. The convention center is a great idea but getting people to/from it, the airport, Meridian hotels is something to consider as well. The easier it is to get to/from the convention center the more likely we are to attract more conventions (not to mention the excess space that a new convention center will create).

Or, better yet, why not use MAPS3 for the convention center and park. And have a new hotel tax for the transit to/from the convention center.

[kevinpate]

lay it out, let the eligible folks vote and the rest can live with the results, whatever those results may be.

[LordGerald]

I can tell you that the city will forward a MAPS III initiative for a December 2009 election by October at the latest. It will be designed to pick up (if passed) in May 2010 when the Ford Center tax lapses, so it will be continual.

Here's what I understand is the potential list of projects:

Extension of Bricktown Canal
Core to Shore Park
First phase of new Convention Center
Downtown Streetcar
More riverfront development
Multi-purpose outdoor facility (small football, MLS, stage et al).

[plmccordj]

Is Cornett smoking crack?

Cornett favors such a component, but said, "it’s hard to pass public transit when you don’t have traffic congestion.”

How would he know if public transportation would be hard to pass when it has never been tried? Our city has repeatedly put together a bus system that is undependable so that no one will ride them and then uses the lack of ridership as an excuse not to have a decent bus system. That is absolutely ridiculous.

Why don't he just admit that he opposes it? I'll tell you why... The people spoke in his MAPS3 ideas website saying they want it so he cannot just admit that he would rather eat glass than do it. I for one am not buying this for a minute.

[BDP]

If we do any rail, I would like to first see a trolley system that goes from the CBD to bricktown, to Deep Deuce, to AA, to Midtown, to the arts district, and back. Not only would it actually be a nice way to experience all the great districts downtown, but it would actually serve as a tour of the core for tourists, expose the districts to more residents and visitors, and maybe, possibly, even ease the pressure created by the "Myth of the Parking Problem" to commit more real estate to parking as you would be able to park anywhere in the core and take a short trolley to your intended destination (and meanwhile you are exposed to much more of downtown as you relax on your way to the game or your restaurant).

In my opinion, this would have a real impact on downtown as it would reinforce the synergy of all of these districts and make each one more viable as the traffic from one spills into the traffic of the other. And it's not like driving through, as you get to actually pay attention to what you're passing and you can hop off at any time.

As a bonus, it would serve as a true litmus test to the acceptance of public transit in the city. It would show many people who have never even used public transit anywhere just how convenient it is. It would also help justify the high rents and asking prices of the new developments, because, suddenly, their properties are connected to the rest of downtown in a comfortable, novel, and stress free manner.

Honestly, if there is one public transit component that would probably actually work immediately, that would be it, imo. No more of these confusing and unreliable buses masquerading as trolleys. In fact, something like this would not only be a useful tool for visitors, it could actually be an attraction itself, if done right.