Does A Child Have The Right To Be Raised By Both Parents?

[PennyQuilts]

To me, the most important thing to do in times of crisis is share your feelings, your thoughts. That is so much better than holding onto it waiting for the valcano to explode.

Hmmm. When I was younger, I used to buy in to that but I don't anymore. I have found that in times of crisis, the last thing anyone really needs is a discussion of feelings. You can discuss feelings after the fire has been put out.

Moreover, when it comes to kids, staying calm may be the best thing you can do for them. I have seen so many children put through the blender because their parents are more focused on their own feelings than their responsibilities to their children.

I also used to buy into the idea that you have to "get it out" to keep from exploding. Now, I think that is based on a false premise that I wish had never been dumped into the public domain. Not everyone explodes if they aren't given the opportunity to spill their guts. And a lot of people want to hold the rest of the world (or at least their mate or family) hostage to their diatribes with what amounts to emotional blackmail - i.e., listen to me or watch me blow.

Go work out at the gym or (and this is traditional) scrub the kitchen floor if you are ready to explode. After you calm down, THINK about what you need to do. Make decisions when you are calm. Follow through with changes instead of reacting to your feelings and just staying in the same old relationship gerbil wheel. Emotions have a physical component and you end up dumping stress hormones into your system when you feel under attack - how many of us have spilled our guts to get it out and lived to regret hurting the people around us? And making NOTHING better.

It isn't about spewing to keep our emotions in check. It is about using our brains to make good decisions so we don't place ourselves and our children, repeatedly, into situations where our emotions are guaranteed to try to overflow their banks.

[TaoMaas]

I also used to buy into the idea that you have to "get it out" to keep from exploding. Now, I think that is based on a false premise that I wish had never been dumped into the public domain. Not everyone explodes if they aren't given the opportunity to spill their guts. And a lot of people want to hold the rest of the world (or at least their mate or family) hostage to their diatribes with what amounts to emotional blackmail - i.e., listen to me or watch me blow.

I think the idea of expressing feelings is good, but it's the way many people go about it that screws things up. I agree that it's often best to wait until you calm down before speaking. Too many people disguise cruelty as "speaking their mind", IMHO.

[jacodenn]

East Coast Okie,

Or, we could do like they did in the 40's, 50's and early 60's and load up on barbituates and tranquilizers. Or, we could start making weekly visits to a Therapist. Or, we could go out and hit a ton of tennis balls. Gollygeebeegeebers, just who does have the magical solution? My, my, my, there are just soooooo many jellybeans to choose from.

I'll be completely honest with ya here East Coast Okie, as far as my situation is concerned, it could all be resolved in less than a minute...if only my Son's mother would stop playing God and rejoin the human race. It really is that simple.

Several months ago a fellow poster on here advised me to "stop my bellyaching and get a lawyer"...advise which you agreed with. Being somewhat semi-retired it has taken me these past several months to have enough to get a new Attorney, which I have done.

But ya know, when it is all said and done, I won't have any regrets as to anything I have done or said and I will continue to be at the forefront trying to help NCP's wherever and whenever I can.

Dennis
Oklahoma City

[StepMomster]

uh yeah, they did. My dad cut off my mom's thumb while trying to stab her in the chest. She put up her hand to prevent it. This happened at my birthday party when I was 8 years old,

Happy Birthday to me.

But, I don't feel sorry for myself one bit .. I'm grateful to my mom for leaving a horrible abusive relationship and not being a pansy, she did the right thing instead of sticking it out and letting herself and her kids get the crap beat out of them. She was petrified but she did what a lot of parents don't do.. they don't protect an innocent child.

I'm not passing judgement on you .. I'm responding to what you are writing on a public message board about an abusive father beating the crap out of your mother and then complaining because you didn't get to live with this man.

In your case your mother did the right thing, but please take note that I never once said my mother left. In fact, it was my father who grew tired of my mother's behavior and left. I don't think I would call her a pansy, but fear had nothing to do with it as she wasn't afraid, she was angry and woman can pull off a lot given the right amount of anger and hostility, at least in my opinion. But for her to choose to protect me when there's was nothing to protect me from... that's a bit ass backward.

Lastly, I didn't "complain" about not living with my father. In fact I don't believe I even mentioned where or with whom I lived. But the fact remains that the ONLY reason my mother cut my father out of my life was purely out of spite, nothing more and nothing less. I know, I was there and the situation was a lot different than yours.

So maybe passing judgment wasn't the right words to use, I apologize, however going off a few sentences and assuming that my mother "sacrificed" anything and that it didn't hurt me, IS my point. You formed an opinion based upon your experience, which we all do, but all of our experiences are different.

In your case there was a truly abusive man and your mother did protect you, but that is not to say that every situation is cut from the same cookie cutter because they aren't. That is the point I try to make is that we all need to keep in mind that every situation is different and just because we didn't experience it doesn't mean these things don't exist or that they don't happen.

So I apologize for getting bit on edge, however as the only child that grew up in that situation there is no justifying what my mother or father did because the only person it effected in the end was me. I don't cry about it, feel sorry for myself, and in fact I rarely think about it. But when I see good fathers cast aside because their ex has a fart stuck cross ways, it tends to tick me off because of what the child is going to be put through.

~Dee~

[PennyQuilts]

So I apologize for getting bit on edge, however as the only child that grew up in that situation there is no justifying what my mother or father did because the only person it effected in the end was me. I don't cry about it, feel sorry for myself, and in fact I rarely think about it. But when I see good fathers cast aside because their ex has a fart stuck cross ways, it tends to tick me off because of what the child is going to be put through.

~Dee~

I don't know how my own kids survived me. Like a lot of young parents, I sometimes thought I knew it all - certainly more than their dad did (by that, I mean that I THOUGHT I knew more). The good part was that it never occurred to me to try to undermine his role even when I was absolutely sure, in my infinite wisdom, that the man was an idiot. I see a lot of parents who undermine the other parent without giving it a second thought. Dee you are correct - the child is the one who ends up paying the price.

[StepMomster]

Dee you are correct - the child is the one who ends up paying the price.

Thank you SO much for that East Coast Okie, as that was really my only point, which somehow got lost along the way. lol.

I just wish parents could forget for one minute that they don't like one another and remember that they are forever obligated to do what's best for their children despite their own personal feelings and just agree to disagree.

All of us here likely feel that children deserve to have BOTH FIT PARENTS, as the topic didn't imply one was abusive, deadbeat, incarcerated etc. It simply was referring to parents who don't have their heads up their butts.

Out of all the people I know that have been divorced and that have children I only know one who's parents set their difference aside to make their children's lives everything they should be and were intended to be before things changed for their parents. But when dad leaves mom, mom feels rejected and gets angry in the end she wants to get even. Not to say the same thing doesn't happen when a woman leaves a man, but it still boils down to the fact that children in those situations are being caught between two adults acting like children and it's not fair because THEIR feelings have not change and they still love, want and need their mom and dad. I know I did despite the stupid stuff they did and drug me through

So thank you for that East Coast Okie because children do wind up getting hurt when their parents fail to realize that while their relationship with one another is over, the relationship with their children never is! That truly is to death do you part because children are forever.

~Dee~

[Karried]

Okay Stepmomster, I can see your point your view.. I'm sorry if I rushed to judgement.

I did assume that your mom took you from your father to protect you from abuse... your one sentence about him beating her until she needed stitches comes to mind..

I guess from my personal experience, if a man can beat up a woman, it's not a stretch that he can beat a child, but like you said, I don't know the whole story, no one ever really does.

I agree, in divorce and custody cases, the children usually do get screwed over.

But in physically abusive cases like this, you have to err on the side of caution and safety. If your mom felt and thought that this man was dangerous, then maybe she did what she had to do to protect you?

It just seemed logical to me that she feared for her safety and for yours as well based on what you wrote.

But, I'll concede, children are usually the innocent pawns in these situations..and it is very sad.

[jacodenn]

According to OKDHS, OAC 340, Chapter 75, Section 3, Definitions:

"Abuse" means harm or threatened harm to a child's health, safety, or welfare by a person responsible for the child's health, safety, or welfare, per 10 O.S. Section (§) 7102.

"Neglect" means a situation in which a PRFC either deliberately or through exceptional lack of attention to the child's basic needs causes the child to suffer emotionally or physically. Neglect involves either a chronic, long-standing problem that impacts several aspects of a child's life or is so severe that it is life-threatening.

"Mental injury - emotional abuse or neglect" means an injury to the child's intellectual or psychological capacity:

(A) as evidenced by observable and substantial impairment in the child's ability to function within the child's normal range of performance and behavior with regard to the child's culture; and
(B) resulting from a pattern of cruel or unconscionable acts upon the child, or statements made or permitted to be made to the child, or within the child's environment, by the PRFC.

PRFC = Person Responsible for Child

Question: Is the act of "alienating" abuse?

Dennis
Oklahoma City

[PennyQuilts]

Dennis, where I work they are generally treated as different although most of us see that by unreasonally alienating a child from a parent, the child will suffer as a result. Alienation generally comes up in the context of a custody dispute rather than abuse and neglect. Not every bit of poor parenting falls within the definition of A & N, in fact, most of it doesn't. There are always going to be crappy parents but you have to cross a bright line for that to constitute A or N.

In a custody situation, parenting is front row center on what the case is about so alienation is more on point. As between two parents, a good one and a bad one, the court is going to be strongly inclined to place the child with the "good" parent although it has to consider many other things in a closer call. The courts don't like to disrupt a child by changing households unless the child is not thriving. If the parents don't get along/won't get along, sole custody is frequently granted to the custodial parent even if the noncustodial parent is not really too bad. It is more of a question of they just won't play well together and the court is not going to put a child in the middle of two grown up who argue, constantly.

In contrast, in an A & N situation, the contest is frequently between the state and the parent. The parent, even a crappy parent, will win, most of the time. To hear some threads, this is not true but I stand by it. The vast majority of times, when DHS is called in, they do an investigation, don't see much beyond poor parenting and then just go away.

Parental alienation can rise to the level of emotional abuse and I have seen that happen. Still, unless the custodial parent is stark raving mad, DHS rarely gets involved because it can't really offer much of a remedy. The proper course of action is for the noncustodial parent to bring a custody case.

Not long ago, I had a visitation case in which the alienation was so bad that I let the parents know that if the noncustodial parent didn't file for custody, I would go to DHS to at least attempt to get a protective order. In that case, the child was being emotionally abused by the custodial parent as a means to an end to lash out at the former partner. It was along the lines of, "You are such a horrible parent and person that even your child hates you, don't you honey?" Only worse. The child had become so unreasonably fearful of the noncustodial parent and was so traumatized by the way the custodial parent had been handling things that he was wetting the bed, wouldn't sleep in his own bed (no connection), was afraid the noncustodial paorent would kidnap him, was afraid to go to school, would lock himself in the car and refuse to come out, would have to call the custodial parent multiple times a day and get hysterical if he wasn't allowed to call immediately, no matter where or when, etc. The child was being emotionally crippled by the custodial parent.

Once the case was in custody court, DHS (actually, the equivalent in my jurisdiction) was properly hands off because the judge could properly do what needed to be done in the context of the custody case.

[jacodenn]

East Coast Okie,

Pretty much everything you just posted is right on target, especially with regards to DHS (in 'my" experiences).

I'd like to continue this...but I gotta head out to work.

Thanks,

Dennis
Oklahoma City

[StepMomster]

Okay Stepmomster, I can see your point your view.. I'm sorry if I rushed to judgement.

I did assume that your mom took you from your father to protect you from abuse... your one sentence about him beating her until she needed stitches comes to mind..

I guess from my personal experience, if a man can beat up a woman, it's not a stretch that he can beat a child, but like you said, I don't know the whole story, no one ever really does.

I agree, in divorce and custody cases, the children usually do get screwed over.

But in physically abusive cases like this, you have to err on the side of caution and safety. If your mom felt and thought that this man was dangerous, then maybe she did what she had to do to protect you?

It just seemed logical to me that she feared for her safety and for yours as well based on what you wrote.

But, I'll concede, children are usually the innocent pawns in these situations..and it is very sad.

No apology necessary as I don't tend to write things as clearly as they appear in my head. lol.

After re-reading what I wrote I can see where it would appear somewhat confusing, I just didn't want you to think it was a pure case of abuse with my parents because it wasn't, it was a love hate relationship... they just loved to hate one another. But the fact that my mother instigated so much combined with the fact that it was my father who left and my mother who didn't, speaks volumes about them both.

Had it been me, I would have taken my child and left, but I don't think I would have severed contact between my child and his or her father either. Hard to say considering I've been lucky enough to never be placed in the situation. But when a woman is abused by her husband, and the HUSBAND leaves, it tends to make the mothers actions afterward a bit redundant at best.

Anyway, thanks for letting me clear that all up and again, sorry for getting my panties in a bunch ;-)

~Dee~

[jacodenn]

I went to my Son's school today. Spent some time out on the playground with all the children. Don't children realize that some of us adults/parents are well beyond our Monkey Bar years? LOL! After recess it was off to the Cafeteria for Chili Mac...yummy. What...no Hot Sauce?

My Son informed me of a few things that I am not able to repeat here (you targeted parents can probably guess). I reassured my Son that Dad is taking care of things. After several hugs and kisses and another good-bye, I made my way to the Office.

The Principal was not in today, so the school Counselor assisted me. She escorted me back into her office and presented me with the "Official File" containing three years worth of "papers." I believe there were less than 10 pieces of paper in this "Official" folder (standard letter size manila folder with my Son's name written on the tab).

I asked the Counselor if she saw any "Court Order" in the folder? She said "No." Just to make sure that I didn't misunderstand, I asked, "This IS the 'Official' school file, yes?" She replied, "yes."

Then I saw it! Nope, not the Court Order, but the "School Enrollment Form 2008-2009." It is signed and dated by the BM/CP on March 13, 2008. Below MY standard personal information (I am Parent/Guardian 2 according to this Official School Form) the BM/CP wrote, "cannot take from school until further notice."

And as Emergency Contacts, the BM/CP listed her 78 year old Mother (my Son's Grandmother), and her (the CP's) first ex-husband. So as not to confuse anyone, I am the second ex-husband.

Question...where is the Court Order that states I cannot pick up my Son from his school?

Round 4 about to get underway...

Dennis
Oklahoma City

[PennyQuilts]

I see this all the time. I don't know what the underlying order regarding custody or visitation has to say - and don't need to know. That is all I have to say on the subject.

[Dana]

Hmmm. When I was younger, I used to buy in to that but I don't anymore. I have found that in times of crisis, the last thing anyone really needs is a discussion of feelings. You can discuss feelings after the fire has been put out.

Moreover, when it comes to kids, staying calm may be the best thing you can do for them. I have seen so many children put through the blender because their parents are more focused on their own feelings than their responsibilities to their children.

I also used to buy into the idea that you have to "get it out" to keep from exploding. Now, I think that is based on a false premise that I wish had never been dumped into the public domain. Not everyone explodes if they aren't given the opportunity to spill their guts. And a lot of people want to hold the rest of the world (or at least their mate or family) hostage to their diatribes with what amounts to emotional blackmail - i.e., listen to me or watch me blow.

Go work out at the gym or (and this is traditional) scrub the kitchen floor if you are ready to explode. After you calm down, THINK about what you need to do. Make decisions when you are calm. Follow through with changes instead of reacting to your feelings and just staying in the same old relationship gerbil wheel. Emotions have a physical component and you end up dumping stress hormones into your system when you feel under attack - how many of us have spilled our guts to get it out and lived to regret hurting the people around us? And making NOTHING better.

It isn't about spewing to keep our emotions in check. It is about using our brains to make good decisions so we don't place ourselves and our children, repeatedly, into situations where our emotions are guaranteed to try to overflow their banks.

To an extent I couldn't agree more with you if that caseworker hadn't gotten so mad because I wouldn't roll over for her. I would still have my grandchild she would have noticed that what she was doing was wrong and given up. The problem is she took it personal and was bound and determined to get him no matter what.
However by the same token if Patrick Sherrell would have maybe had someone to talk to maybe he wouldn't have killed all those people at the Edmond Post Office. So, I guess you could see it both ways jacodenn's side and yours. I will say this much that was one of the most articulate responses I have seen yet. To the point without a bunch of mumbo jumbo mean't to cofuse people.