Most of you go to fake churches

**Martin** · 07-26-2007, 11:46 AM

ok... i see what angle you're coming from now.

that's not to say that the church's official position is that anybody can be saved, christian or otherwise, but that a 'good' person who is ignorant of the church can attain salvation. by extension, a 'good' person who is aware of the catholic church but chooses not to follow it would not be saved. to apply the passage provided to the statement you're refuting, only those muslims or buddhists who are unaware of catholicism would be saved... not just any devout muslim or buddhist.

as per baptism, the passage provided pertains strictly to children who have died without being baptized, not to the average believer. furthermore, the passage doesn't strictly state that unbaptized children are without a doubt saved but only allows the hope for such an outcome based on the mercy of god.

i would argue that catholicism does, in fact, teach that christian faith and baptism are requirements of salvation, but it does provide some exceptions to that rule.

-M

**Midtowner** · 07-26-2007, 01:55 PM

.. and based upon your interpretation of the catechism, particularly, the word "aware," you can arrive at a lot of different conclusions regarding who, according to the Catholic Church is "saved" and who is not.

I would count aware as being much different than being simply vaguely aware that there is a Catholic Church. I would think it would mean that you are aware of at least a basic idea of what the Church stands for, what it believes in, etc. Ghandi, for example, though he knew of the Pope, he was most definitely not a Catholic. It is said that Ghandi was a very good man.

I do not think that Ghandi had the opportunity to study the Catholic church or to join the Catholoc faith. Even if he had, he may have very well hindered his ability to do a lot of good in his country. I think that the doctrine shows that the Church would believe that would Ghandi have had a real opportunity to do so, he would have converted.

While you're reading the doctrine very conservatively, I tend to liberally construe passages such as that as I find the alternative difficult to agree with.

**Martin** · 07-26-2007, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by midnowner

while you're reading the doctrine very conservatively, I tend to liberally construe passages such as that as i find the alternative difficult to agree with.

precisely... and that is what i was saying in the first place. i don't doubt that you and other catholics like you take a liberal stance on salvation... and for the purposes of this discussion i'm not saying that's right or wrong. i'm just saying that's your personal interpretation and not necessarily the official position of the church. that is, i've seen no evidence indicating that the pope would interpret those passages in anything but the conservative sense.

as for gandhi, i'd say that while he found a core of good in all religions, he was more than marginally aware of christianity, had the opportunity to choose it and chose hinduism instead. i'm not denying that he was a good man, i'm just saying that your logic doesn't really fit with historical accounts or with some of the details gandhi personally provided.

here are a couple quotes from the man himself:

"hinduism as I know it entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being ... when doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and when I see not one ray of light on the horizon, i turn to the bhagavad gita, and find a verse to comfort me; and i immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow. my life has been full of tragedies and if they have not left any visible and indelible effect on me, i owe it to the teachings of the bhagavad gita."

"thus if i could not accept christianity either as a perfect, or the greatest religion, neither was I then convinced of hinduism being such. hindu defects were pressingly visible to me. if untouchability could be a part of hinduism, it could but be a rotten part or an excrescence. i could not understand the raison d'etre of a multitude of sects and castes. what was the meaning of saying that the vedas were the inspired word of god? if they were inspired, why not also the bible and the koran? as christian friends were endeavouring to convert me, so were muslim friends. abdullah sheth had kept on inducing me to study islam, and of course he had always something to say regarding its beauty."

-M