OKC or TULSA? Which Metro Has The Most Long-Term Growth Potential?

[JOHNINSOKC]

As our state continues to grow, it seems as though our two largest cities are experiencing rapid growth in population and economic development. Although OKC is growing at a good clip, it appears that Tulsa has the most momentum lately. During the next 10 years, which city will enjoy the most prosperity? Will Tulsa ever take over as the state's most populous metro or will OKC leave Tulsa in the dust as the years go by?

[TStheThird]

What momentum does Tulsa have besides building things that we already have. Been there done that. Tell me something I don't know.

[HOT ROD]

I agree. I dont think Tulsa has any momentum advantage over OKC.

If anything, Tulsa does hold OKC back from its full potential in that it is a large city which siphons away from what otherwise would go to OKC - but OKC is definitely the big boy of the block and OKC will continue to be.

I think OKC will blow Tulsa away in the next census. Look for OKC to be 600,000+ city/1.5+ CMA. Tulsa 400,000 city (high estimate)/950,000 CMA (which includes Bartlesville by the way).

[Spartan]

Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.

P.S. Tulsa already has 950,000 in the CMSA. And there are already 390,000 in the corporal city limits.

[HOT ROD]

Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.

like OKC doesn't have any.

Oh, and Tulsa HAD 393K in its city in 2000 but dropped down to what 378K in the 2005 estimate (??). I look for it to go up to 400K and that's being nice.

[floater]

[QUOTE=Spartan;79298]Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.
[QUOTE]

I actually agree with Spartan. The private sector in Tulsa is more creative, knowledge-based, and dynamic than OKC's.

[Spartan]

Well seeing as you are such a nice guy, I'm sure you'll be fair to the other city in this state. And I notice you don't concede the metro population, or do you?

Don't matter, but I can say that OKC's private sector is less diversified, and in terms of job growth, is a drop in the bucket for this state compared to the job market in Tulsa, that is through the roof right now.

[metro]

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

[floater]

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

As I've said before, population means squat if people's idea of growth means call center jobs. Being the capital protects OKC from downturns, but that in no way means that OKC has more growth potential. I don't know where Tulsa is headed, and I don't care what they've built; the fact is Tulsa is more entrepreneurial. Most of OKC's success really has been top-down.

[Spartan]

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

Capitol Cities:

Michigan - Lansing
California - Sacramento
Washington - Olympia
Oregon - Salem
New Mexico - Santa Fe

and so on...

Arguably, OKC is the center of business and government for Oklahoma, while Tulsa is the indisputed center for culture in Oklahoma.

Tulsa has fallen behind on itself, obviously, but with job growth that is THROUGH the roof right now, and a downtown with more Art Deco buildings than ANY city in America save Miami, Tulsa has potential, and I don't think it's very diplomatic for a highly competant Okc Talk moderator such as yourself to come on here and blast Tulsa.

So tell us... what did Tulsa do to you?

[jbrown84]

while Tulsa is the indisputed center for culture in Oklahoma.

eh...

Oklahoma City Museum of Art
National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Fred Jones, Jr. Museum of Art
International Photography Hall of Fame
Untitled: Art Space
IAO Gallery
The Land Run Monument
The Paseo Arts District
Festival of the Arts
The Noble Theatre at OKCMOA
Dead Center Film Festival
Lyric Theatre
Ballet Oklahoma
Canterbury Choral Society
OKC Philharmonic
Oklahoma City Theatre Company
Carpenter Square Theatre
The Pollard Theatre
The Sooner Theatre
Oklahoma City Repertory Theatre
Oklahoma Shakespeare in the Park
Oklahoma City University's renown arts programs


we are so starved for culture here...



I'll leave it to mranderson to correct your spelling.

[Swake2]

eh...

Oklahoma City Museum of Art
National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Fred Jones, Jr. Museum of Art
International Photography Hall of Fame
Untitled: Art Space
IAO Gallery
The Land Run Monument
The Paseo Arts District
Festival of the Arts
The Noble Theatre at OKCMOA
Dead Center Film Festival
Lyric Theatre
Ballet Oklahoma
Canterbury Choral Society
OKC Philharmonic
Oklahoma City Theatre Company
Carpenter Square Theatre
The Pollard Theatre
The Sooner Theatre
Oklahoma City Repertory Theatre
Oklahoma Shakespeare in the Park
Oklahoma City University's renown arts programs


we are so starved for culture here...



I'll leave it to mranderson to correct your spelling.

Philbrook and Gilcrease are far beyond anything in Oklahoma City, they truly are world class art centers. The Cowboy Hall of Fame is not and the OKCMOA is too new.

Tulsa Opera is a top regional opera and Tulsa Ballet is one the of top Ballet Companies in the world. American Theatre Company is the oldest professional theater company west of the Mississippi, and the Drunkard at the Spotlight Theater is the nations longest running play. And that’s just a start. Please, visit Philbrook or see Tulsa Ballet and then come back.

I never said that OKC was starved for the arts, but, you don’t have what Tulsa has. An example:

From the Tulsa Ballet Website:
In its first international tour in 2002, Tulsa Ballet was declared by the Portuguese national magazine Semanario “One of the best in the world.” The company has received two feature articles in Dance Magazine during the past seven years, has been featured in the New York Times , Pointe Magazine and Dance Europe among others.

Tulsa Ballet Golden Anniversary, 50 year anniversary, 1956-2006

[soonerguru]

As I said earlier in the thread, I sincerely hope Tulsa gets it together. We need both cities to improve remarkably.

Allow me to echo what was said about the East End area. It's still fledgling, but the young people in Tulsa who are remaking that area are great and have a solid vision.

I know many of them personally, and my fear (shared by them, too) is that the focus on the Channels project will overwhelm the positive developments in East Downtown Tulsa.

Were I mayor, I would be doing something significant to get housing in the east side of downtown. There already is a nucleus for development there, and it's truly organic and homegrown (unlike the corporate Disneyland feel of Bricktown).

Still, Tulsa has a LONG way to go, and its city government is dominated by sprawl advocates who live in the 71st and further south corridor of suburbia, which is dominated by chain restaurants and SUV drivers.

OKC is still an open canvas, but I like what I'm seeing from our city leadership -- which is miles ahead of Tulsa's -- and I'm loving the emphasis on serious in-fill projects.

OKC just feels more wide open than Tulsa -- and more welcoming to newcomers. Tulsa is like an inbred country club in many ways. For such a self-styled "cultural" city, there is a lot of exclusionary, backward thinking there. There's almost a small-town mentality, and there is a lot of negativity from the citizens. I hear it all the time from merchants, corporate people, government officials, etc.

I would love it if OKC had as many trees as Tulsa, but that's about it. Sure, a Utica-type place would be great, too. But I could do without the haughty arrogance of many of Tulsa's "leaders." Also, downtown Tulsa is as dead as a doornail right now and these same leaders don't seem to care much.

[jbrown84]

Please, visit Philbrook or see Tulsa Ballet and then come back.

I've been to the Philbrook, thank you. Have you been to the OKCMOA? It's probably a lot better than you imagine.

[metro]

Capitol Cities:

Michigan - Lansing
California - Sacramento
Washington - Olympia
Oregon - Salem
New Mexico - Santa Fe

and so on...

Arguably, OKC is the center of business and government for Oklahoma, while Tulsa is the indisputed center for culture in Oklahoma.

Tulsa has fallen behind on itself, obviously, but with job growth that is THROUGH the roof right now, and a downtown with more Art Deco buildings than ANY city in America save Miami, Tulsa has potential, and I don't think it's very diplomatic for a highly competant Okc Talk moderator such as yourself to come on here and blast Tulsa.

So tell us... what did Tulsa do to you?

If you're going to quote me, at least get your facts straight. I'm not a moderator of this website nor ever have been. As far as the capitols listed above. Not sure what your point is, you never made it. Yes, some states have capitol cities that are smaller than OKC and a less thriving city in their state, look at Sacramento you mentioned though, very comparable to OKC. Yes, LA is a major port city in the world, of course it will be bigger and more thriving. Not sure what Art Deco has to do with anything. It's not going to cause people to move there and your economy to boom. And as far as culture goes, I'd beg to differ that Tulsa is the winner there. At best case scenario, it is very debatable. The OKC MOA has an exhibit from the Louvre' in Paris that only 3 art museums in the US landed, Seattle, Indy, and OKC! That speaks volumes. The civic center hosts a wide variety of world class events. We have the regions largest Asian District. We have a thriving downtown with nightlife which can't be said of Tulsa for either of those. We have Lebanese festival, Greek festivals, African American festivals (both OKC and Tulsa), Deep Deuce, Jazz festivals, St. Pattys festivals, Czech festival, and so on and so on. I know I'm biased living in OKC but even looking at it unbiased, OKC is the clear winner. Perhaps Tulsa has been the winner historically in the past, but you have to give it up for OKC on the culture front right now. And that's not even including the "currently under construction" Native American Cultural Center which will be a part of the Smithsonian.

[metro]

I wasn't saying that more population meant anything. I simply said OKC will continue to have a larger population. But you have to realize OKC is rapidly becoming more entrepreneurial by the day. And with quality of life issues only continuing to improve, this should stay on track. Also we have one of the best medical research facilities in the country and I only see that continuing to grow. With that being said. It's going to be a neck and neck race on the entrepreneurial front.

[floater]

I wasn't saying that more population meant anything. I simply said OKC will continue to have a larger population. But you have to realize OKC is rapidly becoming more entrepreneurial by the day. And with quality of life issues only continuing to improve, this should stay on track. Also we have one of the best medical research facilities in the country and I only see that continuing to grow. With that being said. It's going to be a neck and neck race on the entrepreneurial front.

And that is why it is exciting to be in OKC right now...

[okcpulse]

I have to somewhat disagree with floater. Traditionally, Tulsa was always the more entrpreneurial city. Yet in the last fifteen years, Oklahoma City has seen plenty of start-up companies. Two of them were no-name companies with less than ten employees. Today, they are a LARGE part of OKC's corporate base... Devon and Chesapeake. That's not to say that Tulsa is any less entrepreneurial. Both cities are gung-ho on private sector business. What helped Oklahoma City were the Forward Oklahoma City agendas initiated by the OKC Chamber of Commerce. Each program has been aimed at business growth in OKC, and our burgeoning bio-tech sector is a result of that initiative. I am really excited to see when and what will be a part of Forward Oklahoma City IV.

It's important to note that both Tulsa and OKC Chambers of Commerce have forged a partnership to propel the growth of both cities, and it gives Oklahoma's city-dwelling population a more audible voice at the state capitol.

Remember that just because OKC has a government base doesn't mean the city's economic dynamics cannot be transformed. Didn't stop Austin, Texas from becoming a mecca in technology.

I also don't buy Oklahoma City's larger land area as the only reason for the city's population growth. Tulsa's population can easily grow as well with its smaller land area, but many neighborhoods are opposed to Tulsa building up. I do believe Oklahoma City, with all of the most recent activity, will continue its growth both proper and metro. An increase in that growth depends on how each city's government steers its leadership and chamber initiatives. Our city is still a work in progress, as we still have some serious issues that need to be addressed.

But Tulsa is not without hinderance either. Bell's is looking for a new home... outside Tulsa city limits. All of the riverfront development is also occuring in the suburbs, and the city council, airport board and police department continues to struggle internally. How Tulsa's new arena will help the city remains to be seen. It's an architectural icon, but 18,000 seats maximum capacity is iffy.

I am always behind OKC's growth, however, I prefer to take a wait and see approach for the sake of statewide growth.

[soonerguru]

Have any of you been to Tulsa lately? It is depressing. I go there on business all the time and there is absolutely NO MOMENTUM there for anything.

It USED to be more "entrepreneurial" and private sector than OKC. Today, that is not so much the case.

Other than Williams and H&P, Tulsa has hemmorhaged most of its important energy industry jobs. What's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?

Come on!

OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa. Tulsa has nothing to rival or approximate the research campus at PHF.

Tulsa is resting on past laurels and it is becoming progressively more blue collar by the day. It has a terrible crime problem, is grossly divided along racial lines and lacks leadership at the city level.

Don't take my word for it. Walk around their downtown during PEAK business hours. It is a depressing ghost town. Tulsa has no real momentum right now except for a beautiful arena being built. The job growth figures you see are something of a mirage; how could it not grow when it had been losing jobs for years?

It's going to take a long time for Tulsa to be anywhere close to OKC -- and it will probably never happen.

[Swake2]

It USED to be more "entrepreneurial" and private sector than OKC. Today, that is not so much the case.

Other than Williams and H&P, Tulsa has hemmorhaged most of its important energy industry jobs. What's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?

Come on!

OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa. Tulsa has nothing to rival or approximate the research campus at PHF.

Semgroup, founded in 2000, 9th largest private company in the nation, almost as large as Devon and Cheasapeake combined. Sorry about that bubble.

[In_Tulsa]

soonerguru What Tulsa are you talking about.

[jbrown84]

Walk around their downtown during PEAK business hours. It is a depressing ghost town.

I have to completely agree with that statement. I've been there around 5:30 on a Saturday and there isn't a soul around. All the restaurants are closed. And then we came back around 10 to take pictures and it was filled with homeless people and there is no street lighting except on Boston Ave.

[okcpulse]

Soonerguru is right as far as Tulsa's internal problems are concerned. My relatives in Tulsa are even complaining the city's falling apart. And they've been in Tulsa for over 40 years.

[Spartan]

Soonerguru is right as far as Tulsa's internal problems are concerned. My relatives in Tulsa are even complaining the city's falling apart. And they've been in Tulsa for over 40 years.

Of course, the Old Guard are somewhat pissed off about the giant strides of progress being made. These are the same people that oppose TIFs for inspiring quality development and opposed the capitol improvement campaigns, and won that battle the first two times.

You can thank yer rellies for the state Tulsa has fallen into, do it for me at least.

[Swake2]

Some research:

Oklahoma has 11 companies (or 12, more on that later) large enough to be on the Fortune 1000 (public companies) and Forbes Largest Private companies lists. Five are in OKC and six in Tulsa. The three largest are all in Tulsa.

Oneok, public, $12.8 billion in revenue
Williams, public, $12.6 billion in revenue
Semgroup, privately held, $12.57 billion in revenue
QuikTrip, privately held, $5.86 billion in revenue
Vanguard, public, $2.89 billion in revenue
Dollar-Thrifty, public, $1.52 in reveue

Devon, public, $9.19 billion in revenue
OG&E, public, $6.02 billion in revenue
Chesapeake Energy, public, $4.67 billion in revenue
Love’s Travel Stops, privately held, $2.21 billion in revenue
Hobby Lobby Stores, privately held, $1.35 billion in revenue

Tulsa’s total: $48.24 billion

OKC’s total: $23.44 billion

Samson Energy in Tulsa should also be on this list, but, they are private and chose not to report earnings any longer. The last time I could find they released numbers was in 1990 with revenues $4.35 billion, and energy prices have not exactly gone down. They are reportedly bigger than Williams, but no one really knows since they aren’t saying.

If Samson is really is as large or larger than Williams then Tulsa’s total would climb to over $60 billion to OKC’s $23.44. Oh, and with recent acquisitions and growth, BOK will probably climb onto this list for ’06 and will pass Hobby Lobby in revenue.

But then, Tulsa really is just dead, no growth anywhere. right?

You might want to checkout Semgroup’s new research campus by the way.

New Tulsa lab: SemGroup paves way for asphalt research

As for pure growth, Tulsa has two companies on the Fortune 100 fastest growing companies list to OKC’s one, and while Chesapeake is the fast growing company in the state (30th in the Nation), Unit Corp is right behind at 37th. (Oneok at 55 was the other company on the list)