Liquor Laws

[diesel]

Is there anything in effect to get our liquor laws changed so that we can get places like Costco and other grocery retailers in to OKC??!!?

[Midtowner]

There have been some initiatives to allow Oklahoma produced wine to be sold in grocery stores. These attempts, however, have been met with stiff resistance.

Oklahoma liquor store owners and wholesalers have fought the local wineries' rights to self-distribute. You can read more about it here.

http://www.nuyakacreek.com/blog/arch...OkWineNews.htm

I think that this is a necessary first step in the direction of deregulating the liquor store industry. Oklahoma doesn't change by leaps. It changes by baby steps. I think this would be a good babystep to helping to eliminate the strangle hold of the wholesaler and liquor store lobby.

[diesel]

So what is it going to take to get this done?!?! Why isn't the people doing something about this?!!? I believe it would be a great improvement to our economy because of the moving in of new business. I would think that the state would be excited about bringing in new business.

[Swake2]

People are working on it:
news story:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory....A11_Group29374

Online petition:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takea...ltl=1158092132

[floater]

Good to see. I hope they're successful.

[HOT ROD]

I agree that the laws should be changed but not so we could get COSTCO.

I think we should change/repeal EVERY backward ass law that has done nothing but hold OKC back and make us the laughing stock of the world (remember the Redneck story??). This was not necessarily because OKC is abundant with them (most major cities have way more) but it is OKC's lackluster approach to being urban and/or cosmopolitan and our laws have the most to do with this.

When we ask businesses like Nordy's, Costco, Whole Foods ect why they won't come - they give us the canned demographics excuse. Um excuse me, OKC is the largest city in the nation without these stores - and if my business 101 memory serves me correct, you'd want to make money where the people are.

And OKC's encatchment market would be the whole state, S Kansas, W Arkansas, W Texas to say the least! ???Demographics???

If 1.3M people (5M+ encatchment market) is not enough "demographics" then we know its our laws and conservative approach that is holding us back. This is my argument!

OKC should be more like Portland OR, take risks and have loose (but environmentally serious) laws that encourage business (and responsible, good looking business at that)!

Then we all will see presence from major upscale retail we've been looking for.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

To further demonstrate how absurd Oklahoma Liquor laws are; beer with less than 3.2% alcohol is only allowed to be sold in grocery stores because it is classified by Oklahom State Statute as a non-intoxicating beverage.

I don't know about you, but between the ages of around 15 and 20 something, drinking this offically "non-intoxicating" beverage in large quantities resulted in a condition commonly refered to in the crowd I ran with as s_ _ t faced. We all thought we were intoxicated, but I guess we wern't

Getting Strong Beer sales allowed in grocery stores would be a good start, but allowing all wine sales, not just Oklahoma wines, is much more important. Perhaps after the elections in November, there could be some intrest at the Statehouse to look at reforming out outmoded liquor statutes along those lines. Of course there is always the initative petition route, but to get the required signatures is a costly process and I haven't heard of a sugar daddy wanting to fund it.

[Midtowner]

ODTG:

I'm merely predicting based on how I've seen the Oklahoma legislature act. I don't think they'll go for deregulation simply for the sake of deregulation. But deregulation for the sake of improving Oklahoma's winery business?

I think it's a much easier sale.

[okcpulse]

Well, let's assume Coors, Bud and Miller discontinue their 3.2 brew. That means those three brewing companies will be completely absent from the Oklahoma market. Why would they advertise here, then? And since so many sporting events across the state are sponsored by these companies, I'm sure the legislature would be backed into a corner. Plain and simple.

[HOT ROD]

ridiculous. Come on guys, lets get rid of these stupid conservative backwards ass laws. Let's not let this keep holding the city back.

Continue the Renaissance!!

[The Old Downtown Guy]

ridiculous. Come on guys, lets get rid of these stupid conservative backwards ass laws. Let's not let this keep holding the city back.

So, what would be the next step in your plan?

[Midtowner]

ODTG:

An initiative petition might do the trick. You could probably even get financial backing from wine growers, beer companies, and liquor companies.

The distribution cartel would fight it tooth and nail, but I think once such an issue made it on the ballot, it'd be hard to stop.

Alternatively, if you want to solve the problem in the state congress, I think we'll have to do that incremental/slow approach we're all so very fond of.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I agree that if the issue got on the ballot, it would stand a good chance of making it. A good target would be the 2008 Presidential Election. But, there would be strong opposition and a lot of money from distributors and plenty of vocal anti-booze sentiment from at least some religious groups.

Midtowner, do you know what the time frame and signature requirements are for a state wide initative petition?

[Midtowner]

I agree that if the issue got on the ballot, it would stand a good chance of making it. A good target would be the 2008 Presidential Election. But, there would be strong opposition and a lot of money from distributors and plenty of vocal anti-booze sentiment from at least some religious groups.

Midtowner, do you know what the time frame and signature requirements are for a state wide initative petition?

Sure. Article 5, section 2 of the Oklahoma Constitution states:

§ 2. Designation and definition of reserved powers - Determination of percentages.

The first power reserved by the people is the initiative, and eight per centum of the legal voters shall have the right to propose any legislative measure, and fifteen per centum of the legal voters shall have the right to propose amendments to the Constitution by petition, and every such petition shall include the full text of the measure so proposed. The second power is the referendum, and it may be ordered (except as to laws necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, or safety), either by petition signed by five per centum of the legal voters or by the Legislature as other bills are enacted. The ratio and per centum of legal voters hereinbefore stated shall be based upon the total number of votes cast at the last general election for the State office receiving the highest number of votes at such election.(emphasis added)

http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...STOKCN&level=1

Oklahoma Statutes, Title 34 is controlling on the rest of the process.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...OKST34&level=1

As for your timeline, most of that info is under Title 34, Section 9:

A. When a referendum is ordered by petition of the people against any measure passed by the Legislature or when any measure is proposed by initiative petition, whether as an amendment to the Constitution or as a statute, it shall be the duty of the parties submitting the measure to prepare and file one copy of the measure with the Secretary of State and one copy with the Attorney General.

B. The parties submitting the measure shall also submit a suggested ballot title which shall be filed on a separate sheet of paper and shall not be deemed part of the petition. The suggested ballot title:

1. Shall not exceed two hundred (200) words;

2. Shall explain in basic words, which can be easily found in dictionaries of general usage, the effect of the proposition;

3. Shall be written on the eighth-grade reading comprehension level;

4. Shall not contain any words which have a special meaning for a particular profession or trade not commonly known to the citizens of this state;

5. Shall not reflect partiality in its composition or contain any argument for or against the measure;

6. Shall contain language which clearly states that a "yes" vote is a vote in favor of the proposition and a "no" vote is a vote against the proposition; and

7. Shall not contain language whereby a "yes" vote is, in fact, a vote against the proposition and a "no" vote is, in fact, a vote in favor of the proposition.

C. When a measure is proposed as a constitutional amendment by the Legislature or when the Legislature proposes a statute conditioned upon approval by the people:

1. After final passage of a measure, the Secretary of State shall submit the proposed ballot title to the Attorney General for review as to legal correctness. Within five (5) business days, the Attorney General shall, in writing, notify the Secretary of State, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives whether or not the proposed ballot title complies with applicable laws. The Attorney General shall state with specificity any and all defects found and, if necessary, within ten (10) business days of determining that the proposed ballot title is defective, prepare a preliminary ballot title which complies with the law and furnish a copy of such ballot title to the Secretary of State, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. The Attorney General may consider any comments made by the President Pro Tempore of the Senate or the Speaker of the House of Representatives and shall file a final ballot title with the Secretary of State no sooner than ten (10) business days and no later than fifteen (15) business days after furnishing the preliminary ballot title.

2. After receipt of the measure and the official ballot title, as certified by the Attorney General, the Secretary of State shall within five (5) days transmit to the Secretary of the State Election Board an attested copy of the measure, including the official ballot title.

D. The following procedure shall apply to ballot titles of referendums ordered by a petition of the people or any measure proposed by an initiative petition:

1. After the filing and binding of the petition pamphlets, the Secretary of State shall submit the proposed ballot title to the Attorney General for review as to legal correctness. Within five (5) business days after the filing of the measure and ballot title, the Attorney General shall, in writing, notify the Secretary of State whether or not the proposed ballot title complies with applicable laws. The Attorney General shall state with specificity any and all defects found and, if necessary, within ten (10) business days of determining that the proposed ballot title is defective, prepare and file a ballot title which complies with the law; and

2. Within ten (10) business days after completion of the review by the Attorney General, the Secretary of State shall, if no appeal is filed, transmit to the Secretary of the State Election Board an attested copy of the measure, including the official ballot title, and a certification that the requirements of this section have been met. If an appeal is taken from such ballot title within the time specified in Section 10 of this title, then the Secretary of State shall certify to the Secretary of the State Election Board the ballot title which is finally approved by the Supreme Court.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...p?CiteID=71561

There are also some other rules that have knocked out some recent initiative petitions. For example, the TABOR initiative petition was knocked out because on many occasions, the signature gatherers were out-of-staters. O.S. Title 34, Section 3.1 states:

It shall be unlawful for any person other than a qualified elector of the State of Oklahoma to circulate any initiative or referendum petition to amend, add to, delete, strike or otherwise change in any way the Constitution or laws of the State of Oklahoma, or of any subdivision of the State of Oklahoma. Every person convicted of a violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not to exceed One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for not to exceed one (1) year, or by both said fine and imprisonment.(emphasis added)

http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...p?CiteID=71554

It's an expensive process which must be done the right way in order to succeed.

This is not legal advice, I'm not qualified to give legal advice. If you're really thinking about doing something like this, I suggest you retain someone who is qualified.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Thanks Midtowner.

I spoke with a very experienced former state senator this evening and his view is that the chance of the state legislature adopting anything to send to the voters on this issue is close to zero. Lines drawn between urban and rural and between those in favor of liberalizing alcohol sales and those opposed to alcohol period, and there are more of those than one would think.

It's also an issue that the Chamber of Commerce can't get behind very easily either. The benefits extend to a rather small part of the business community and I'm not sure what a survey would show about the desires of people in the burbs. Do they mind going by the liquor store on the way home from Albertsons to stock up? I enjoy going to the store we use and talking with the owner or other people I know there about new wines, recommendations etc.

Perhaps the best approach is in tiny steps as you suggested Midtowner. Also, I thought I heard something about a legal challenge to the in-state winery sales on the radio today, but didn't get the whole story.

[Midtowner]

I read the Daily Oklahoman article. It seems the reporter is pretty clueless as to the actual objections (they're probably pretty highly technical). I'd assume the radio report was no better.

[okcpulse]

To further demonstrate how absurd Oklahoma Liquor laws are; beer with less than 3.2% alcohol is only allowed to be sold in grocery stores because it is classified by Oklahom State Statute as a non-intoxicating beverage.

Former Governor Frank Keating in 1995 removed the classification of 3.2% abw beverages as "non-intoxicating". The definition is now low-point beer.

The real reason why low-point beer is sold in grocery stores is because they had been doing so before Oklahoma prohibition ended in 1959. The Oklahoma Grocers Association did not want to follow the new liquor statutes when liquor rules were being drafted, so their lobbying resulted in an exemption from Oklahoma's liquor statutes.

Therefore, Oklahoma lucked out in 1977 when the major brewing companies pulled their strong beer out of Oklahoma, because if things had been different, no Oklahoman would have seen a bottle of Budweiser sold in Oklahoma in almost 30 years.

[ksearls]

This is interesting! Tulsa World story regarding Mass. and their fight to sell wine in grocery stores.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/OpinionSto..._G1_WillO38645

[The Old Downtown Guy]

This is interesting! Tulsa World story regarding Mass. and their fight to sell wine in grocery stores.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/OpinionSto..._G1_WillO38645

Thanks for the post Kim. I googled "Oklahomans For Modern Laws" which was named in the linked article and found several other stories. Perhaps we can just get on this existing band wagon. I didn't find a web site or any contact information for OFMA, but I'll keep a look out for sure.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Former Governor Frank Keating in 1995 removed the classification of 3.2% abw beverages as "non-intoxicating". The definition is now low-point beer. . . .

The real reason why low-point beer is sold in grocery stores is because they had been doing so before Oklahoma prohibition ended in 1959. The Oklahoma Grocers Association did not want to follow the new liquor statutes when liquor rules were being drafted, so their lobbying resulted in an exemption from Oklahoma's liquor statutes. . .

You are correct okcpulse except that Frank only signed the law drafted and passed by the legislature. He was a good governor, but just a governor. He would have liked to have been king, but fortunately we don't have those here.

That minor correction in language however doesn't negate the obvious rampant hyprocracy and bowing to special interestes that allow cold beer sales from roadside "grocery" stores and prescribe that strong beers only be sold unchilled in "licensed" liquor stores and that neither wine or strong beers be sold in grocery stores.

The common sense in all of this some how eludes me.

[okclee]

Any new information on this?

[SouthsideSooner]

In the last two years, Oklahoma voters approved liquor stores being able to stay open on election day by less than 1 percent.

Can anyone think of one good reason why anyone would oppose that?

With that in mind, do you really think they will vote for sales of alcoholic beverages in grocery stores and convenience stores.

Highly doubtful

Disclaimer......I own a liquor store

[Easy180]

My guess would be all the self righteous people in Oklahoma just read liquor on the ballot and checked no

The close vote just goes to show how many stiffs there are in our fine state

[okclee]

Has there been any progress with this petition to even get it to a vote?

[RSA]

Bump