Downtown Grocery Store not coming soon

[Patrick]

Results were released from a studying looking into the possibility of a grocery store downtown. The study shows that there simply is no demand for a grocery store downtown.


Laws blamed for lack of downtown grocery

By Steve Lackmeyer
The Oklahoman

A report released Tuesday shows downtown Oklahoma City may be at a disadvantage in luring a specialty grocery because of state laws that prohibit them from selling strong beer and liquor.


A preliminary report of the study by The Kilduff Co. also shows no statistical unmet demand exists for a full-service grocery downtown, despite comments to the contrary by residents. And even with a flurry of housing development and a focused recruitment effort, consultant Larry Kilduff warns that an effort to persuade a grocery to open downtown could take three years or longer.

However, Kilduff said downtown also has some strengths for recruiting a grocery.
"There is demonstrated regional drawing power in the trade area," Kilduff reported.

"The downtown sites are well-positioned in the trade area with regard to residential and commercial activity. Existing retail and residential developments are doing well, and significant additional residential is projected."

Kilduff suggested civic leadership and infrastructure assistance from the city will be needed in any recruitment effort.

However, it's the specialty retailers such as Whole Foods, Central Market and Trader Joes that Kilduff believes will be best suited for downtown.

Dave Lopez, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., said he's not discouraged by the report. He and Roy Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said they believe the timing is right to recruit a grocery that can serve not just downtown, but the entire metro area.

"With the growth in downtown housing and the strengths pointed out in the study, we can now begin the hard work of attracting a grocer that can be a catalyst and attraction for downtown," Lopez said.

He said more discussion is needed to determine how to address a specialty store's desire to sell strong beer and liquor. Missouri recently changed its laws to allow such sales, while Texas allows it on a county-by-county basis.

"It affirms something we thought might be a vulnerability as we go ahead with trying to get the specialty grocers who sell wine and beer," Lopez said. "What we have to think through is if it's a vital product for a grocer to have, how do we solve that?

"Getting the law changed might be a very big project. Perhaps there is a novel way to have a grocery and liquor store next to each other."

Ron Edgmon, president of the Oklahoma Grocers Association, said he's aware of an initiative petition being circulated to change the state's liquor laws to allow sales at groceries.

"We're not involved," said Edgmon, who couldn't identify the petition's organizers. "They're trying to get it on the ballot in November ... we're not sure how strong this is or who the people are who are trying to get this done."

Edgmon said his organization's board has taken no stance on liquor sales in groceries.
He is convinced a grocery store will open downtown.

"I think a lot of what's going on downtown is the demographics are just now becoming favorable to support a grocery," Edgmon said.
"I think there will most definitely be a grocery store downtown. And with who is moving down there, the demographics will support a Whole Foods or that type of store."

[Pete]

Regardless of demand, we will never get one of those stores anywhere in the state until the liquor laws are changed.

I'm sure voters would overwhelming approve a change in the law if it could somehow make it to the ballot. I just don't see any group being motivated enough to make that happen.

[Patrick]

Regardless of demand, we will never get one of those stores anywhere in the state until the liquor laws are changed.

I'm sure voters would overwhelming approve a change in the law if it could somehow make it to the ballot. I just don't see any group being motivated enough to make that happen.

Sorry to make this a partisan issue, but I don't see the law changing anytime soon with Republicans in a position to take over the Senate.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

A preliminary report of the study by The Kilduff Co. also shows no statistical unmet demand exists for a full-service grocery downtown, despite comments to the contrary by residents. And even with a flurry of housing development and a focused recruitment effort, consultant Larry Kilduff warns that an effort to persuade a grocery to open downtown could take three years or longer.

However, Kilduff said downtown also has some strengths for recruiting a grocery.
"There is demonstrated regional drawing power in the trade area," Kilduff reported.

That's the (kinda, sorta) bad news followed by the (duh, obvious) good news. There is no doubt that a Whole Foods located in or near downtown would be a destination store and draw from the entire Metro in addition to the nearby neighborhoods.

While higher margin wine and liquor sales add to the bottom line of the vast majority Whole Foods locations, I am aware of at least one WF store in Dallas that is located in a dry county and doesn't offer alcohol. I also wonder if it isn't possible for an adjacent totally seperate location owned by Whole Foods to offer wine and liquor?

Now we move on to the recruitment phase, which is the most important and also offers the possibility of political influence. Get out those snail mail tools (unfortunately, e-mail doesn't carry as much weight in City Hall as an old fashioned letter) and write regular letters to the Mayor and your Councilperson suggesting that recruiting Whole Foods is important to OKC and that a few million in infrastructure improvements, some tax abatement or other financial inducements are in order.

[Pete]

It's one thing to work around a dry county law in a state where you have already made a big committment (Texas). It's quite another to chose to do business in a state with comprehensive laws that cut off a big chunk of your business and draw.

I shop in Trader Joe's at least once a week and a large percentage of people there are buying wine. I'm quite sure many would go elsewhere if it wasn't available.


I just don't see any hope on this issue until the laws are changed. Since that will likely take years, I hope some progress is made soon so when the demand is actually there, everything can come together.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I shop in Trader Joe's at least once a week and a large percentage of people there are buying wine. I'm quite sure many would go elsewhere if it wasn't available.

All of the stores where you live compete on the same basis; wine and liquor is allowed for sale in grocery stores. Why would a Whole Foods in OKC that doesn't sell wine and liquor not be competitive with all of the lack luster grocery stores in OKC that also don't sell wine and liquor? Wine and liquor sales only enhance store profits.

If Whole Foods sees a profitable market in OKC, they will open a store here. Encouragement by The City would be very helpful. It would seem to me that our best option is to lure Whole Foods here and then work to update our liquor laws not wait for the laws to be changed. OKC doesn't have room for three or four upscale grocery stores, so the first one to locate here could easily tie up the market for years to come.

[metro]

I don't think it necessarily means "Grocery store not coming downtown soon". It just means the study says it may take more time. An investor with a good eye can realize the opportunity and may capitalize on this despite the survey. Other "experts" say one will come despite these results. I guess time will tell.

[OklaCity_75]

I think changing the law would help bring more business to Oklahoma.

I think that is why you do not see very many specialty food stores in Oklahoma. Like the stores you see on food network that cater to the amatuer chef. Those type of stores need to be able to sell wine and spirits for cooking.

I am sure Pastor Bob and company would come to the capitol screaming, "You cannot sell liquor in a grocery store. Every underage kid in the state would be boosing it up the moment it happened."

[Pete]

Why would a Whole Foods in OKC that doesn't sell wine and liquor not be competitive with all of the lack luster grocery stores in OKC that also don't sell wine and liquor? Wine and liquor sales only enhance store profits.

Because Whole Foods and Trader Joes are not full-service grocery stores. They are specialty stores that cater to (and rely heavily on) the wine-and-cheese crowd.

I guarantee you that a good percentage of people only go there for the wine and may pick up some other items as well.

For example, those stores don't sell Coke and Pepsi products and many traditonal name brands. Apart from a handful of extremists, virtually everyone that goes to the specialty stores ends up at a regular grocer anyway out of necessity.

So, without the draw of wine and speciality beers many people would not have much of a reason to make the special trip.


Realistically, I can't imagine why those stores would risk completely changing their tried-and-true format to come to Oklahoma, and especially areas that have iffy demographics.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Because Whole Foods and Trader Joes are not full-service grocery stores. They are specialty stores that cater to (and rely heavily on) the wine-and-cheese crowd.

I guarantee you that a good percentage of people only go there for the wine and may pick up some other items as well.

For example, those stores don't sell Coke and Pepsi products and many traditonal name brands. Apart from a handful of extremists, virtually everyone that goes to the specialty stores ends up at a regular grocer anyway out of necessity.

So, without the draw of wine and speciality beers many people would not have much of a reason to make the special trip.


Realistically, I can't imagine why those stores would risk completely changing their tried-and-true format to come to Oklahoma, and especially areas that have iffy demographics.

Yo Malidude, Thanks for the new labels, I will in the future include member of the wine-and-cheese crowd and extremist to liberal, preservationist and tree hugger when introducing myself.

I don't know what Whole Foods stores you have ever been in, if any, but (IMO) you have no idea what you are talking about.

BTW, the last time that I bought any Coke or Pepsi was a couple of summers ago when I was having the grandkids over for a cookout. But it seems that when given the opportunity to compare, they prefered the Blue Sky Organic Gensign Ginger Ale and Reeds Apple Cider that their ol grandpa keeps in his, Coors Lite free, beer fridg.

Diversity pal, it's all about diversity. Enjoy the sunshine where ever you are.

[shane453]

How about Homeland? Aren't they an Oklahoma company? I'd like to see a local grocer doing business downtown.

[John]

How about Homeland? Aren't they an Oklahoma company? I'd like to see a local grocer doing business downtown.

The study wasn't done to lure a Homeland/Albertson's/etc to downtown. The goal is to have an upscale retailer that draws clientele from across the entire city and also has a nice cafe attached to the store. Much like your Central Market, Whole Foods, etc.

Once we strike down our archaic and ignorant liquor laws, they'll come running our way.

[okcpulse]

How about Homeland? Aren't they an Oklahoma company? I'd like to see a local grocer doing business downtown.

Absolutely not. Homeland is a low quality grocery chain that is notorious for running properties into the ground. The company structure is so archane the life is choked out of Homeland's grocery store employees.

Anyhow, I am e-mailing a copy of my proposal to Dave Lopez, who mentioned a need to change Oklahoma's liquor laws. Trust me, it won't take years, it's a short matter of time, and the change will most likely come at the hands of an initiative petition. It is more than just allowing grocery stores to sell strong beer and wine. It will take a complete overhaul of Article 28 of the Constitution from the ground up.

You guys are also pointing too many fingers at the wrong people who oppose a change in Oklahoma liquor laws. The real opposition will come from liquor store owners and liquor wholesale distributors. I've literally been in that very face of opposition before while trying to get a grass roots campaign started. I was turned away by almost every liquor store owner who a)doesn't want to operate coolers to sell cold beer and b)oppose selling wine and strong beer in grocery stores out of fear in loss of sales.

If we really want this changed, we need to either push lawmakers to put this issue to the vote of the poeple, or gather 200,000 signatures and go through the process of getting the proposal on the November ballot ourselves.

[upisgr8]

Has any one been to Piccadilly in Wichita?
I want to put one in Bricktown. Who's in?

Perfect Size, Perfect Concept, Good Prices

[BG918]

^ They have Piccadilly in Tulsa, it's a great "upscale" cafeteria chain. But I don't think Bricktown is the place for that.

As for the grocery store, why does OKC have to have a specialty grocery? In the mean time a smaller version or Albertson's/Homeland/Reasor's should open up shop and begin serving the new and current downtown residents. In time, as more people move downtown, specialty grocer's will come even if they can't sell liquor. It would be nice if that does make it to the ballot though in November, as the article suggests. If they need additional signatures they should just go to the OU and OSU campuses where students would go out of their way to change the liquor laws.

[upisgr8]

^ They have Piccadilly in Tulsa, it's a great "upscale" cafeteria chain. But I don't think Bricktown is the place for that.

http://www.piccadillyeast.com/market.html


Not the same Piccadilly, The one on east side of Wichita is the one I shopped at when I lived there several years ago. I'll be there this weekend and post some pics.

[BDP]

I was turned away by almost every liquor store owner who a)doesn't want to operate coolers to sell cold beer and b)oppose selling wine and strong beer in grocery stores out of fear in loss of sales.

Which is understandable, but there are considerable restrictions on them as well, such as they can not own more than one store and they can only sell alcoholic beverages. I wonder if they would be more supportive if the legislation lifted these constraints as well.

I am also wondering if these constraints somehow prevent a specaialty grocer from owning a liquor store next to their grocery. I'm not sure how the statutes read, but, if this is currently allowed and any of these chains felt the market was ready, I think they'd already be here. At least in Norman or Edmond.

[escan]

I love Trader Joe's. Wish one would locate here, but Malibu is right....they have a small selection of unique, upscale items and rely heavily on wine sales. Wish I could pick up a bottle of wine when grocery shopping, but no.... not here.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I love Trader Joe's. Wish one would locate here, but Malibu is right....they have a small selection of unique, upscale items and rely heavily on wine sales. Wish I could pick up a bottle of wine when grocery shopping, but no.... not here.

And when I said "extremist" I only meant it in the grocery-shopping sense, in that only a small percengtage of people would do all their grocery shopping in Whole Foods or Trader Joes. . . . . No need to get personal or be offended by someone who is merely offering their own opinion based on personal experience. And if you knew anything about me, you'd see great irony in your lecture about 'diversity'.
Today 09:24 AM

A I was not lecturing Malibu, I was only using "diversity" in the grocery-shopping sense.
B. The average Whole Foods store is only slightly smaller than the average Albertsons, WalMarket, A&P etc.
C. The breadth of catagories of food products in Whole Foods is almost identical to Albertsons, WalMarket, A&P etc.
D. Here is what Whole Foods has to say about their grocery selection on their website www.wholefoodsmarket.com

Many customers linger in our stores, spending far longer than they do in other retail establishments. Why? One reason is the large and tempting assortment of products in our Grocery Department, so distinct from conventional supermarkets. Variety, it is said, is the spice of life.

As the natural foods industry has expanded to encompass every major food category as well as nutritional supplements, cleaning products, housewares and pet food, our Grocery aisles have expanded too. Customers wandering the aisles discover cereals, snacks, juices, yogurt and dairy products, frozen foods, soups, rows of products in bulk bins and more. Our stores offer an incredible diversity of grocery products, with new ones being introduced all the time. Included in these offerings are our three outstanding private label lines.

Whole foods doesn't build 5000 or 10000 sq. ft. botique markets featuring exclusively high priced specialty products. They are a first class, competitevly price grocery operatiions with a complete selection of produce, groceries, meats and prepared foods. They don't offer many of the highly advertised brands like Coke or Kellogs or whatever, but that doesn't keep them from being a complete grocery store. I simply don't understand what you, escan and Malibu, are talking about when you refer to Whole Foods as a specialty retailer with limited selection.

Granted, Trader Joes has a somewhat smaller selection based on their marketing practices, but taking brand names out of the equation, what food products are not available at Whole Foods?

[Pete]

I don't know what Whole Foods stores you have ever been in, if any, but (IMO) you have no idea what you are talking about.

Just the one less than a mile from my house every couple of weeks.


And when I said "extremist" I only meant it in the grocery-shopping sense, in that only a small percengtage of people would do all their grocery shopping in Whole Foods or Trader Joes.

No need to get personal or be offended by someone who is merely offering their own opinion based on personal experience. And if you knew anything about me, you'd see great irony in your lecture about 'diversity'.

[metro]

See, wait a day and you see the other side to this story:

http://newsok.com/article/1840624/?t...=business/main

[Patrick]

See, wait a day and you see the other side to this story:

http://newsok.com/article/1840624/?t...=business/main

Thanks for posting the link, metro.

Sounds like Mick and other city leaders are already on top of this.

Some things I liked in the article:


Carl Edwards, managing partner of Price Edwards, the largest Oklahoma-based commercial real estate company, advised incentives such as downtown's tax increment finance district (TIF) will be needed to provide structured parking. "We don't have many opportunities to build a flat sea of parking downtown like we do elsewhere," Edwards said. "And that's where I see TIF playing a role."

[Pete]

"Complete" is a matter of opinion. I simply know very few people that do all their shopping at Whole Foods (in fact, I can't think of a single one) and most also still go to a traditional grocery store, usually more frequently than WF.

It's not because they don't offer soda and cleaning products, it's because they only offer a certain kind of those and other things.

And if you remove wine and beer from the equation, products a good chunk of WF shoppers purchase, you are now required to make another trip.


Most people I know (myself included) go to TJ's or WF's to buy wine and a few items that I can't get elsewhere. If wine wasn't offered, I have a lot less reason to go to those stores but I'm still going to the traditional grocery store no matter what.


Listen, I would love for one of those stores to hit OKC. But if you take away a big part of their draw and profit right out of the gate, that's going to be make an already difficult sales job (due to demographics) that much harder.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

[

"Complete" is a matter of opinion. I simply know very few people that do all their shopping at Whole Foods (in fact, I can't think of a single one) and most also still go to a traditional grocery store, usually more frequently than WF.

No, "Complete" is not a matter of opinion it is an adjective meaning Having all necessary or normal parts. Thorough . I don't believe that you can refute my statement that Whole Foods offers a complete selection of grocery products.

Suggesting that Whole Foods may not, or should not, or will not locate a store in OKC because people will still go to other stores to buy some items is irrelevant to the discussion of this topic.

"It's not because they don't offer soda and cleaning products, it's because they only offer a certain kind of those and other things.

What does "certain kind" mean? Are you referring to brand names or product types or quality levels or exactly what?

"And if you remove wine and beer from the equation, products a good chunk of WF shoppers purchase, you are now required to make another trip.

You are simply making an assumption and a statement with no basis in fact. Whole Foods stores that carry wine and beer allocate about 10% of their floor space to those products. Due to the higher gross margins, they make more profit dollars as a percentage of their total net profit from those square feet but that is obviously not where they make the majority of their profit. If you disagree with this point, please provide some data or quotes from an expert or something besides your misguided opinions.

"Most people I know (myself included) go to TJ's or WF's to buy wine and a few items that I can't get elsewhere. If wine wasn't offered, I have a lot less reason to go to those stores but I'm still going to the traditional grocery store no matter what.

Most people (myself included) I know in OKC go to Albertsons or WalWhatever or Homeland or Akins or the Farmers Market to buy what they put on their table. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC would like to have the option of shopping at a Whole Foods which would be located in or near downtown. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC believe that there is an adequate market here to support a Whole Foods. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC believe that a Whole Foods would be a destination shopping location, a very popular store and a profitable venture for Whole Foods, even without wine and beer in their product mix. In the end, the executives at Whole Foods will make the decision to locate here now or later, because they at some point they will very likely want to locate a store here. Most people (myself included) I know in OKC would like for the store to be open as soon as humanly possible.

Disclaimer: When I say "Most people (myself included) I know in OKC" I am not suggesting that I personally know everyone in OKC or that I even personally know enough people to make up a customer base for a typical Whole Foods Grocery store. It is just my opinion. An opinion that is based in thoughtful inquiry and actual discussions with not only friends and acquaintances but also people in marketing, urban planning, city government etc.

Listen, I would love for one of those stores to hit OKC. But if you take away a big part of their draw and profit right out of the gate, that's going to be make an already difficult sales job (due to demographics) that much harder.

You and I agree on only one thing, that we would both love to have a Whole Foods hit OKC. But that is apparently all we agree on. You keep making the same weak argument revolving around wine and beer, which simply doesn't hold up in the face of economics and retail reality. So, now you are throwing around demographics in OKC as a negative. Of course you don't bother to quote the demographics required by Whole Foods or the other factors they look at such as potential customers within a twenty minute drive or on site parking or easy access to major streets or expressways; you just throw it out there as if you were actually making a legitimate argument.

If you want to keep arguing this subject, that's fine with me. I love to argue. I also really enjoy living in Oklahoma City and will continue to work toward improving the quality of my life here. I will attend the ground breaking and the grand opening of Whole Foods first store in Oklahoma City and the only thing I am not sure of is if I will be able to walk there or if I will need to ride my bicycle.

[escan]

ODG-

I never mentioned Whole Foods...only Trader Joes....just wanted to clarify.....just read the posts before throwing us all together in a slew of generalities.