Why is it controversial to call Oklahoma part of the South?

[Isaac C. Parker]

Inspired by the conversation in the First National Center thread, I wanted to start this topic in earnest.

Growing up in Oklahoma, I heard it variously referred to as part of the Great Plains, Midwest, Southwest, and South. I think there's an argument to be made that Oklahoma could be a part of any of these regions.

According to Wikipedia, the Great Plains are a "broad expanse of flat land (a plain), much of it covered in prairie, steppe, and grassland, located in the interior of North America." I don't think it's controversial that it's not considered an American cultural region, as the Midwest and the South commonly are. So what do we consider Oklahoma's cultural region to be?

Usually when this topic is discussed online, I see comments expressing certainty that Oklahoma is absolutely in the South and not in the Midwest, or vice versa. Perhaps there's a fair amount of individual identity tied up in the outcome of what Oklahoma's region is, and that makes some posters dismissive or one-sided in their discussion.

With that being said, I do think there is more outright dismissal of Oklahoma being considered a Southern state, in spite of an abundance of evidence that it culturally fits in better than any other region.

Cheers.

[Jake]

My mother is from Mississippi with almost all of her family residing there, Lousiana, and South Carolina. When I've asked them, Oklahoma is definitely not considered "The South" to them.

My father is from Wisconsin with all of his family residing there or in Minnesota. They absolutely do not consider Oklahoma a Midwestern state.

I think it's fascinating to hear the debate of where Oklahoma fits. I don't even really know myself. Oklahoma is a nexus of a lot of different regions/cultures depending on who you ask. I think it helps make Oklahoma a tad more interesting seeing how it doesn't neatly fit anywhere.

[jn1780]

Yeah, its funny because "The South" is not really a geographic description, its more of a nick name for all the states south of the Mason Dixon line. The Great Plains is actual geographic description.

[Video Expert]

As a geography nut, here is where I stand...

Oklahoma is not North enough to be in the "Midwest" . Midwestern states include Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin.
Oklahoma is not East enough to be in what's considered "The South." Arkansas and Louisiana are the western most "Southern States"
Oklahoma is not West enough to be considered part of the "Intermountain West"

Oklahoma is a "Southwestern" state, along with Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Or you can consider it a "Great Plains" state as mentioned above which then removes any directional aspect. That would include Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Kansas, Colorado, Nebraska, S. Dakota, N. Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming. In spite of their mountainous topography on the western sides, large portions of Eastern Colorado, New Mexico, Wyoming, and Montana all are part of the "Great Plains".

[Pete]

Oklahoma was not even a state during the Civil War, thus we were never part of The South in the same way as the confederate states. That's a big distinction.

There are influences from the south (religion, some cuisine) but we are a big mix that has never really fit neatly in one region.

Southern Great Plains is probably the best label.

[Isaac C. Parker]

My mother is from Mississippi with almost all of her family residing there, Lousiana, and South Carolina. When I've asked them, Oklahoma is definitely not considered "The South" to them.

My father is from Wisconsin with all of his family residing there or in Minnesota. They absolutely do not consider Oklahoma a Midwestern state.

I think it's fascinating to hear the debate of where Oklahoma fits. I don't even really know myself. Oklahoma is a nexus of a lot of different regions/cultures depending on who you ask. I think it helps make Oklahoma a tad more interesting seeing how it doesn't neatly fit anywhere.

It really is fascinating. I have relatives all over the country and they all seem to have a different position on Oklahoma's regional affiliation too.

What's interesting to me is that my rural Oklahoma family all have very pronounced Southern accents, but consider themselves Southwesterners.

Oklahoma was not even a state during the Civil War, thus we were never part of The South in the same way as the confederate states. That's a big distinction.

There are influences from the south (religion, some cuisine) but we are a big mix that has never really fit neatly in one region.

Southern Great Plains is probably the best label.

Yeah, I see the "Oklahoma was not a state during the Civil War" point brought up pretty much every time this discussion takes place. It seems to ignore a couple of things, though.

The status of the Indian Territory was pretty firmly pro-Confederate; which isn't to say that there wasn't tribal support for the Union, but all of the Upper South/border states were similarly torn between secession and remaining in the Union.

But the Confederacy had signed treaties with all of the Native Tribes within the Indian Territory. This allowed the tribes a couple of delegates to Confederate Congress in Richmond, Virginia (including well-known Choctaw planter and slaveholder Robert M. Jones). I rarely see this discussed, however.

Also, Kentucky, despite never having seceded from the Union, is almost always considered to be part of the South. Is it because of the perception of a shared culture to the rest of the former Confederacy? Other border states share in that as well.

Some sort of tie to the Confederacy is present in all of these states, but there's a separate (though related) point to be made that it's the presence of Southern culture that makes a state "Southern."

Very interesting as well.

[Brett]

Here is a cool YouTube video showing the US Civil War day to day and who occupied which area and at what time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDEK4gJBKW0

[Pete]

^

The point about the Civil War is that the support was very loose and based on the tribes.

There was no other population to hold and hand down the Southern culture and attitudes, which is a huge difference from the confederate states.

Spend some time in Georgia or Mississippi or even Tennessee or Arkansas and you'll see a big difference.

And remember, a big part of the Southern culture was rooted in the confederacy and slavery. Oklahoma was never really part of that in the same way.

[Isaac C. Parker]

^

The point about the Civil War is that the support was very loose and based on the tribes.

There was no other population to hold and hand down the Southern culture and attitudes, which is a huge difference from the confederate states.

...

And remember, a big part of the Southern culture was rooted in the confederacy and slavery. Oklahoma was never really part of that in the same way.

Oklahoma was predominately settled by white Southerners after the Civil War. That's where this element of Southern culture in Oklahoma stems from.

Spend some time in Georgia or Mississippi or even Tennessee or Arkansas and you'll see a big difference.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Small town eastern Oklahoma is pretty similar to small town western Arkansas (for me, anyway). Same as small town southwest Oklahoma from nearby Texas, or the Oklahoma Panhandle and the Texas Panhandle.

[Pete]

Oklahoma was predominately settled by white Southerners after the Civil War. That's where this element of Southern culture in Oklahoma stems from.

What is your source for this?

[jedicurt]

What is your source for this?

i'm curious about this as well, because David Payne and most of his Boomer Army came from Indiana and Kansas. There are articles in Chicago and New York newspapers at the times talking about train loads of people from these cities leaving for the land run...

[Isaac C. Parker]

What is your source for this?

i'm curious about this as well, because David Payne and most of his Boomer Army came from Indiana and Kansas. There are articles in Chicago and New York newspapers at the times talking about train loads of people from these cities leaving for the land run...

Yeah, the Boomers (and broadly the land run settlers) did not comprise the majority of the settlers in early Oklahoma. But the trains were absolutely real; in that first 1889 run, there were trains departing from Arkansas City, KS (purportedly full of Midwesterners/Northerners) and trains departing from Purcell, I.T. (full of Southerners). Subsequently, Guthrie famously was a Republican stronghold and Oklahoma City a Democrat one.

Generally, northwest/north-central Oklahoma was predominately settled by Midwesterners, while Southerners settled in the rest of the state. Historic voting/voter registration patterns, linguistic divides, religious affiliation, and even agricultural history follow this alignment.

The Encyclopedia of Oklahoma is a decent primer covering the demographic history of Oklahoma. They paint a pretty cosmopolitan picture of Oklahoma's early settlers, but mention in their land opening articles where most of the settlers of any particular land opening came from.

This old map from the OSU Digital Collection tries to depict the U.S.'s rural cultural regions. While outdated, it does a pretty good job of breaking down the United States into subregions based on settlement patterns and economic situations. Its age almost lends it more weight, as I see it.

Ancestry.com came out with a fascinating map showing some of the shared genetics in the United States. This tends to back up the fact that Oklahoma was pretty convincingly settled from the Upper South.

Also, there are lots of old masters theses floating around online as PDFs detailing Oklahoma's settlement patterns, and are often good reads too.

[Pete]

Oklahoma was predominately settled by white Southerners after the Civil War. That's where this element of Southern culture in Oklahoma stems from.

You stated this as fact then posted a bunch of links that merely show settlers came from all over, not "predominately" white Southerners.


It seems like you are very invested in trying to portray Oklahoma as part of the South.

From one of your links:

In 1907, at the time Oklahoma became the forty-sixth state, it could have been described as a patchwork quilt of destroyed Indian reservations. Its citizenry consisted of southern cotton farmers, midwestern wheat farmers, and western cattlemen, with minorities of American Indians, African Americans, and ethnic Europeans. The twentieth century brought new urban "settlers" from Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America, making Oklahoma a state of many and varied cultural traditions.

[Isaac C. Parker]

You stated this as fact then posted a bunch of links that merely show settlers came from all over, not "predominately" white Southerners.


It seems like you are very invested in trying to portray Oklahoma as part of the South.

From one of your links:

While I do feel that there is more evidence to lump Oklahoma in with the South more than any other cultural region, I am merely trying to have a nuanced conversation about why Oklahomans seem so polarized about our cultural region.

And I don't believe I said that Oklahoma's early settlers didn't come from all over, but rather that a majority had their origins in the South.

Indeed you're quoting the Encyclopedia of Oklahoma's Settlement Patterns article.

I suppose you ignored my disclaimer about the writing at OKHistory:

"They paint a pretty cosmopolitan picture of Oklahoma's early settlers"

They do a careful job as not explicitly state an overall demographic breakdown.

If you would examine the other links, Oklahoma is shown as being settled to a significant degree by Southerners.

Again, there is quite a bit of material out online about this topic.

Oklahoma's early political history is shaped by this demographic situation. After reading about things like the passing of Senate Bill 1 and the subsequent era of Jim Crow and Democratic political dominance in Oklahoma, one does wonder who these people were who ate up segregationist political rhetoric. It clearly wasn't Republican Midwestern migrants from Kansas and Nebraska instituting Jim Crow and setting up pensions for Confederate veterans in Oklahoma.

[GoGators]

While I do feel that there is more evidence to lump Oklahoma in with the South more than any other cultural region, I am merely trying to have a nuanced conversation about why Oklahomans seem so polarized about our cultural region.

And I don't believe I said that Oklahoma's early settlers didn't come from all over, but rather that a majority had their origins in the South.

Indeed you're quoting the Encyclopedia of Oklahoma's Settlement Patterns article.

I suppose you ignored my disclaimer about the writing at OKHistory:

"They paint a pretty cosmopolitan picture of Oklahoma's early settlers"

They do a careful job as not explicitly state an overall demographic breakdown.

If you would examine the other links, Oklahoma is shown as being settled to a significant degree by Southerners.

Again, there is quite a bit of material out online about this topic.

Oklahoma's early political history is shaped by this demographic situation. After reading about things like the passing of Senate Bill 1 and the subsequent era of Jim Crow and Democratic political dominance in Oklahoma, one does wonder who these people were who ate up segregationist political rhetoric. It clearly wasn't Republican Midwestern migrants from Kansas and Nebraska instituting Jim Crow and setting up pensions for Confederate veterans in Oklahoma.

I’m 5th Generation okie. My family were actual Republican farmers from Kansas. We were definitely not southern and we lived in an area of NW oklahoma that looks a lot more like New Mexico than Georgia. There is nothing about my Oklahoma experience that would indicate anything of southern culture. I never heard anyone describe oklahoma as southern growing up.&$

Now if I were born in southeast oklahoma from a family of Mississippi settlers Id probably be ready to fight anyone who claimed I wasn’t “southern”

The answer to this question solely depends on who is answering it. I don’t think there are any right or wrong answers. It could go a lot of ways so I usually just go by the labeled map I was given to color in grade school.

[soonerguru]

Oklahoma was predominately settled by white Southerners after the Civil War. That's where this element of Southern culture in Oklahoma stems from.



I'm not sure what you mean here. Small town eastern Oklahoma is pretty similar to small town western Arkansas (for me, anyway). Same as small town southwest Oklahoma from nearby Texas, or the Oklahoma Panhandle and the Texas Panhandle.

Oklahoma had black towns established before white settlement. Oklahoma had a black territorial governor.

You seem to be, pardon the term, whitewashing the presence of freedmen and the establishment of black towns in Oklahoma, in order to fit a narrative that we are an extension of the South.

The tribes had freed their slaves before emancipation.

Oklahoma was discussed as possibly becoming America's first black state.

[Isaac C. Parker]

Oklahoma had black towns established before white settlement. Oklahoma had a black territorial governor.

You seem to be, pardon the term, whitewashing the presence of freedmen and the establishment of black towns in Oklahoma, in order to fit a narrative that we are an extension of the South.

The tribes had freed their slaves before emancipation.

Oklahoma was discussed as possibly becoming America's first black state.

If you think I'm whitewashing anything because I didn't mention Oklahoma's historic black communities, well I'm at a loss.

To elaborate a little more on the topic, the Oklahoma Territory was, at one time, a hopeful destination for a lot of Freedmen and their children fleeing west during Reconstruction. Here's an article in the Oklahoman about it too.

Oklahoma Territory was an appealing place for black settlers, and between the initial land runs and Statehood, Oklahoma's black population more than doubled.

Unfortunately, as I'd mentioned, Oklahoma quickly became quite hostile towards black settlers who had legal equality in mind, as segregationist laws were implemented at Statehood in 1907. After 1910, Oklahoma's black population shrank in proportion to other demographics within the state. This correlates with a number of Jim Crow laws that were passed and enacted, including the introduction of a "Grandfather clause" aimed at disenfranchising black Oklahomans.

But, two of your claims are not true. Oklahoma Territory never had a black governor. But, perhaps you are thinking of Edward McCabe, who was a prominent figure in the black community and the founder of the town of Langston. He was never appointed territorial governor, however.

And the tribes did not free their slaves until the Reconstruction Treaties of 1866 - well after the Emancipation Proclamation.

While I don't know if any of the aforementioned proves that Oklahoma belongs to any particular region, I do think we all stand to benefit from learning more about the history of the black community within Oklahoma. Thanks for bringing up this topic.

[Dob Hooligan]

I think the Confederate link to Oklahoma is underplayed by the tribes that had slaves. I am not an expert by any means, but I do recall that the "Cherokee Freedmen" are the slaves (and descendants) the Cherokee tribe had that were freed after the war and the US government forced the Cherokee to give them tribal membership, regardless of blood. I think that is what the legal dispute was based on within the last 20 years.

I recall Stan Watie was a Confederate General whose troops were involved in the last military action of the Civil War, which happened in Oklahoma.

Hopefully someone can help fill this out for me.

[Celebrator]

I most generally refer to it as the "Heartland", but sometimes the Southern Plains. I find the culture to a be a very appealing blend of the Midwest and the South, both of which I have lived in.

[Pete]

There are several Oklahoma towns named for foreign cities due to the populations that settled there, like Prague and Kremlin.

And large populations of Czechs settled in Yukon, Germans in Harrah, Italians in and around McAlester, etc.

Far and Away was the story of Ron Howard's Irish family that participated in a land run.

[BoulderSooner]

There are several Oklahoma towns named for foreign cities due to the populations that settled there, like Prague and Kremlin.

And large populations of Czechs settled in Yukon, Germans in Harrah, Italians in and around McAlester, etc.

Far and Away was the story of Ron Howard's Irish family that participated in a land run.

lots of polish in harrah as well

[Isaac C. Parker]

There are several Oklahoma towns named for foreign cities due to the populations that settled there, like Prague and Kremlin.

And large populations of Czechs settled in Yukon, Germans in Harrah, Italians in and around McAlester, etc.

Far and Away was the story of Ron Howard's Irish family that participated in a land run.

Oklahoma should be proud of its communities, for sure.

In 1910, less than 3% of Oklahoma's population was foreign born. But just under 10% of the population was either foreign-born or born to foreign parents.

[Plutonic Panda]

Interestingly, I seemed to have stirred up this debate by responding to a poster claiming Oklahoma to be part of the southwest and I was to respond. I claimed that it was controversial to say Oklahoma is part of the SW US as my past experiences have shown most reaction by people here to claim to be the midwest or 'the south.' For some reason, it seems like people borderline take offense to the notion and want to drive home the fact that they don't think Oklahoma is part of the southwest or anything to with it and I had better remember it lol

[Video Expert]

Interestingly, I seemed to have stirred up this debate by responding to a poster claiming Oklahoma to be part of the southwest and I was to respond. I claimed that it was controversial to say Oklahoma is part of the SW US as my past experiences have shown most reaction by people here to claim to be the midwest or 'the south.' For some reason, it seems like people borderline take offense to the notion and want to drive home the fact that they don't think Oklahoma is part of the southwest or anything to with it and I had better remember it lol

I'm with you. Oklahoma in the Southwest.

And the US Fish and Wildlife Service along with the Department of Interior also agrees with us,. That settles it for me!!

https://www.fws.gov/southwest/AboutUs/

[GoGators]

Interestingly, I seemed to have stirred up this debate by responding to a poster claiming Oklahoma to be part of the southwest and I was to respond. I claimed that it was controversial to say Oklahoma is part of the SW US as my past experiences have shown most reaction by people here to claim to be the midwest or 'the south.' For some reason, it seems like people borderline take offense to the notion and want to drive home the fact that they don't think Oklahoma is part of the southwest or anything to with it and I had better remember it lol

This is the map I remember learning in school: