Locking the "Focus" thread

[ColumbiaCowboy]

That got closed at a really rotten time. It wasn't "dengenerating on all sides," it was degenerating on ONE side, with cheap false attacks and vulgar slurs. There was also some interesting discussion going there that I'd have liked to have seen continue.

I'm also unhappy that a really nasty accusation got made and I wasn't given chance to respond. I want to tell the person claiming I "tore pages out of the Bible when angry" that no, I've never torn a page out, although AGAIN if he's going to accuse others of not following the Bible, we MUST ask (and expect an honest answer, for once) whether they follow a kosher diet, when they're going to stone gays, if they avoid Rayon...

Of course they don't. ALL of us recognize that tired old law from Leviticus isn't meant to be followed by man in this day and age, and using it to excuse bigotry is a very unChristian act.

I put an awful lot of thought into the last post (and then had to edit it down...did you know there's a limit to how long posts can be? wish I knew that before half an hour's research and writing got thrown away!) and it really stinks that the thread got locked before anyone could respond to it.

Stuff that was posted that might have made closing it appropriate came only from one side of the debate. Remove a post or two, and make it clear that slurs aren't allowed, and let the discussion continue, please.

[mranderson]

The reason the thread was closed was simple. These homosexual topics keep going in circles and get to the point that each side is bitter.

Many of us, who are part of the "silent majority," are quite offended by the practice, and some people are just the opposite. We have reasons for our feelings, and the opposition claims to have reasons for theirs. So, after several circles and the discussion getting bitter, these threads are always closed.

Personally, I would like to see the topic banned all together due to the major bitterness it causes. However, since both sides have first amendment rights, that can not occur. I have suggested, instead a seperate forum for alternative lifestyles with a disclaimer saying it is contriversial in nature and if the content is offensive, we suggest not entering.

This thread (the one I am replying to) is not inetnded to start that debate again, so, please do not go there. I just wanted to answer a question.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[ColumbiaCowboy]

The reason the thread was closed was simple. These homosexual topics keep going in circles and get to the point that each side is bitter.

So, what? We just don't allow it to be discussed?

The main reason I'm upset about it is I asked some legitimate questions that never got answered. Will you just duck them forever?

Many of us, who are part of the "silent majority," are quite offended by the practice,

First off, homosexuality is not a practice. It's not something you do. YOU make it all about a sexual act, and that's not all it is. Gay virgins are still gay. All day long, their whole lives. You cannot make them be not gay. It's a simple matter of do we treat them as equals or do we treat them as second-class citizens, and being committed to justice I think we must do the former.
As to "being offended," that's your choice, but as a Christian I will continue to fight against it being claimed that God is behind that, because God has nothing to do with it. It's your own personal problem with it.
I find smoking in restaurants offensive, I find a lot of curse words offensive, I find rap music being played loudly in someone's car offensive, I find pierced lips and noses offensive...being offensive doesn't mean it should be illegal or that it's immoral.

and some people are just the opposite. We have reasons for our feelings, and the opposition claims to have reasons for theirs.

WAIT A MINUTE...you say you have yours, and we CLAIM to have ours?

See, this is the problem, you refuse to even SEE that we have legitimate reasons. You refuse to read them, to pay attention to them. Your mind is closed, and rusted shut. This isn't a two-way problem, this isn't "we'll never reach an answer, or go any further in the discussion" problem, the problem is simply you and your stubborness.

So, after several circles and the discussion getting bitter, these threads are always closed.

I can't think of many issues more important in our society today, saying that we can't ask tough questions of the anti-gay crowd is just counter to the purpose of having a discussion board in the first place. Yes, people WILL post opinions counter to yours. If you can't stand having your views questioned, why have a board in the first place? To have topics where one person says something, and everyone else goes "yup, you're right!"?? What the heck is interesting or useful in that?

Personally, I would like to see the topic banned all together due to the major bitterness it causes.

It causes bitterness because people are being treated like trash without any good reason, and this MUST be talked about. Banning the subject? Why? BECAUSE YOU'RE GETTING ASKED HARD QUESTIONS FOR WHICH YOU HAVE NO GOOD ANSWER! BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE THIS PUSHED BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BACK UP YOUR HOMOPHOBIA!!! Well, that's crap! Will every topic that has disagreement get banned? Again, that raises the question why have a discussion board in the first place? Or is it only this one, because there are questions being asked that you don't want to answer?

You must...you MUST...think for just one moment. Maybe, just maybe, you're wrong?

And given the immense suffering, the lives that are being destroyed by the vicious anti-gay feelings too many in our society have, isn't it time that it at least be considered? Is it worth it? What the devil is being gained by stubbornly clinging to discrimination and bigotry just because change might be uncomfortable?

However, since both sides have first amendment rights, that can not occur.

Nor should it. We cannot as a society, as a church, as a country, as a state, as ANYTHING, we CANNOT move forward unless we look hard at tough issues, ask tough questions, and if there's not a real good reason for doing something the way we've done it in the past change it. I promise this is no different from the civil rights fights for women 80 years ago, for blacks 50 years ago...it made people mad, uncomfortable, and there were SOME who were against progress and against justice who KNEW they couldn't win a logical debate on the topic who just said "We can't discuss this any more, we're just not going to reach an agreement, we're just going in circles, blah blah blah" which of course means they win by forfeit. That was unacceptable then, and it's unacceptable now.

I have suggested, instead a seperate forum for alternative lifestyles with a disclaimer saying it is contriversial in nature and if the content is offensive, we suggest not entering.

That's totally unneeded. This is where it belongs. This is to discuss faith issues, and this is about faith, about our churches, about how the Bible is used and misused. The church is making a very, very wrong decision if it tries to hide from these issues. Justice, caring about others, this is the PERFECT place for it.

This thread (the one I am replying to) is not inetnded to start that debate again, so, please do not go there. I just wanted to answer a question.

Yet there are DOZENS of questions that remain unanswered. To lock the thread, to keep ANYONE from discussing the issues because YOU don't want to answer the questions is unfair, unjust, and violates not only free speech but the basic logical reason for having a discussion board in the first place.
Do only threads where the monitors come off looking good get to stay? If their opinions are questioned, that topic's off limits?

There has been nothing even vaguely resembling a decent reason for locking this thread presented. None.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Thank me for nothing. I've not cooperated, I've been ignored altogether, my questions left unanswered, valid points ignored, about 90 minutes worth of work thrown into the garbage because you don't want to answer tough questions on these issues.

Meanwhile, more people die, more lives are destroyed, more misery is created, more people leave churches never to return...that may be the worst of all. Bigotry is driving people away from God, away from the church. It's gotta stop. And it won't if decent people allow bad leaders to shut them up so they don't "make waves."

[Todd]

I had the opportunity and have read through this thread and several others regarding this issue. After passing emails back and forth with my moderator team I think it is best that we allow this discussion to go on in its own forum. Most of you who have been on the boards for any length of time know my pet peeve is being accused of censorship. Many times I have overruled moderator’s decisions and let threads continue...all in the sake of free speech. It is extremely hard to keep this place tame AND maintain a positive atmosphere. Just in the last 24 hours I've had two members email me directly requesting their memberships be canceled because in their eye's all they read was negative.

To bring some structure to the chaos I will be creating a new forum. The name is yet to be decided but it will be a forum where all hot topics that escalate beyond family friendly will be placed at my discretion. My goal is to let the debates go on without censorship yet allow the casual surfer or new members to get acquainted with the forum before being kicked in the head with hot topics and possibly being turned of by the negativity and fighting.

[Winterhawk]

The practice of silencing argument on the topic of homosexulatiy is a bad one. As long as these discussions are silenced in whatever medium that are brought forth in, there will be no progress.

Homosexulaity is not a conscious decision for gays and lesbians at puberty, it is part of the myriad of input factors that we call life. Why are you left handed? Why do you prefer steak over chicken? Do you even know? Of course not, there are too many independent factors that go into a single human being's makeup for you to be able to define the one source oor impetus of change.

Homosexuals don't choose to be gay much like you don't choose to fall in love. Stop hating.

[PUGalicious]

We did not close the thread to silence discussion. We closed it because the tone of some of the comments was getting increasingly bitter. We opted, this time, to close the thread to allow the discussion to cool down. We are not restricting the exchange of ideas, just the manner in which they are conveyed. Respect is the key element and respect for others was disappearing.

As Todd mentioned previously, the team has discussed ways to allow this type of discussion to continue, but in its own place where people understand the the debate may be more negative or direct than some feel comfortable.

As Todd has expressed, I too am a big "free speech" advocate and other moderators will tell you that before my moderator days I pushed the envelope. However, there are boundaries of decency and decorum that should guide any debate. People should be able to discuss opposing viewpoints without making it personal. Although specific comments were not personal toward any specific poster, they were becoming increasingly personal in their tone (even if a specific member wasn't addressed).

This topic can resume within the new forum when it's established. We will not resume it in this thread. If additional comments related to the referenced original thread are posted, they are subject to removal and this thread closed as well. We're not silencing the discussion permanently, just temporarily while we establish the proper forum in the next 12 to 24 hours. Please respect that. Thank you all for your cooperation.