Islamic Extremists Rejoice

[Karried]

"Islamic extremists rejoiced in America's misfortune, giving the storm a military rank and declaring in Internet chatter that "Private" Katrina had joined the global jihad, or holy war. With "God's help," they declared, oil prices would hit $100 a barrel this year. "


They are such creeps.

[Dungeon Master]

Get the rubber band gun out. I've had enough of their chicken poop.

No wait a minute - there has to be due process. Never mind (referring to "Looting in New Orleans" thread).

[mranderson]

Get the rubber band gun out. I've had enough of their chicken poop.

No wait a minute - there has to be due process. Never mind (referring to "Looting in New Orleans" thread).

Due process... Shoot, confirm KIA, arrest, then marandize.

[Didaskalos]

Get the rubber band gun out. I've had enough of their chicken poop.

No wait a minute - there has to be due process. Never mind (referring to "Looting in New Orleans" thread).

This has been an elightening day I must say. I never realized that due process was such a bad thing. Learn something new every day.

[Dungeon Master]

This has been an elightening day I must say. I never realized that due process was such a bad thing. Learn something new every day.

I'm sorry Didaskalos,

But now I'm going to have to remind some that the U.S. is run on leadership and honor in our freedom. We cannot keep dividing the line of the harsh punishment and let others get away with evil.
I have to ask.
If you are in a room and see a young child holding a gun, his sister holding a knife and their father preparing to behead your child. Someone gives you a gun. Would you wait for due process? Or would you try to protect your child? Which one would you blow away? Don't forget, there are three of them and one of these days, they will go after your grand children. And guess what, they don't care about due process. They're ready to kill.
This may sound harsh but guess what. It's now reality.
Being in the military, I have seen lots of things. But nothing as bad as the evil the terrorist are doing each and every single day. If we replay the video of our U.S. friends getting beheaded and play back the 9-11 event in it's full version (I mean the ALL day version), it would change some minds. For the ones that wouldn't change, they just don't care which is a very sad thing.
Did the ones who charished on 9-11 have a due process? I think not.
We do learn something every day don't we? But then we forget!!!

[Curt]

"Islamic extremists rejoiced in America's misfortune, giving the storm a military rank and declaring in Internet chatter that "Private" Katrina had joined the global jihad, or holy war. With "God's help," they declared, oil prices would hit $100 a barrel this year. "


They are such creeps.

But they all want to come here and live, and our government lets them.
Dont get me started, they have taken over Dearborn already, no joke. Thanks to Henry Ford who wanted them to come and work for his company, and even now, all Ford hires is Middle easterners and Asians.

[Dungeon Master]

That's what I'm talking about. I am using paperclips with my rubber bands. Those things really hurt too.

[Karried]

But remember guys, these are Extremists, we can't lump all of the Islam community together, these are the crazy evil ones.

[windowphobe]

And we distinguish them from the ostensibly sane good ones how, exactly?

[Didaskalos]

And we distinguish them from the ostensibly sane good ones how, exactly?

So because to some they are not easily distinguishable, we would wipe all Islamic people off the planet? Of course this is not a holy war, this has always been about terrorists.

Will the world finally be a good place when all Islamic people are dead? Of course, a lot of people have a hard time distinquishing between an Arab a Persian a Latin or even an Indian so it might be best to wipe them all out?

Maybe, just maybe... it is our moral responsiblity to distinquish between a radical few and the remainder.

[PUGalicious]

I'm sorry. Is this the KKK thread?

[PUGalicious]

Here's the problem, Dungeon Master. There are some (perhaps even participating in this thread) who lump all "middle easteners" — presumably Arabs and people of the Islamic faith — with those radical fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. But there is a distinction.

To apply that logic to other circumstances, ALL Christians should share the guilt and face the consequences of the grossly distorted "Christian" Klu Klux Klan.

Comments like this one — "But they all want to come here and live, and our government lets them…Dont get me started, they have taken over Dearborn already, no joke… Thanks to Henry Ford who wanted them to come and work for his company, and even now, all Ford hires is Middle easterners and Asians… " — are racist and shows that our country has made less progress with this problem than we lead ourselves to believe. It's truly revolting.

We have let the terrorists win. We are a nation gripped in fear. We are suspicious of anyone different from ourselves. There is a special contempt toward anyone who looks even remotely like they could possibly be Middle Eastern, whether or not they actually are. I see the looks on people's faces when someone from Pakistan or Lebanon — or even our "ally" Saudi Arabia — goes through security or gets on a plane with them. The terrorists have successfully filled our lives with terror — and it's caused us to change our hearts and our values as a country. We are now stooping to their level and their value system.

"Shoot, confirm KIA, arrest, then marandize." That's not the American way; that's the barbaric way. What has made America great (or at least, what used to) was that we held ourselves to a higher standard of justice, fairness and civil liberty. We are becoming like the savages we hold in contempt. We are willing to kill the innocent in the hope of "getting the bad guy."

We are outraged when they rejoice at our own countries tragedies. Yet, many among us rejoiced at the images of "shock and awe" during our bombing campaigns in Iraq, even as thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed or maimed in the process. But we don't condemn ourselves when we do it because we're the ones doing it.

Dungeon Master, I have no problem having Americans watch the videos of the beheadings or ALL the tragic events on 9/11 and hearing all the painful stories from the families of victims in the cases. Personally, I've watched videos of a couple of the beheadings and I can tell you it left me sick to my stomach for days. Reliving 9/11, both with video images and even just the sounds of that day — something I've done on several occasions throughout the last four years — brings me profound grief and reminds me of the uncertainty and terror I personally felt that day.

But, if we're going to watch that, we must also watch ALL the video of the effects of our actions on other people — like the devastation, destruction and deaths from our pre-emptive, voluntary war on Iraq. It's not just Saddam's regime that was destroyed or "bad guys" that were blown up; real people — innocent people — were killed or grossly maimed at our hands. Families were torn apart, loved ones lost. Let's watch the stomach-turning videos and hear the heart-wrenching stories that come from that. Let's not pretend like the terrorists are the only people with innocent blood on their hands. Let's tell the WHOLE story.

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Why did FDR say this? Because fear makes us do irrational things and act in irrational ways and make irrational decisions. Fear makes us hate people without cause. We have regressed to judging people (and hating them) because of the color of their skin.

It's repulsive. And if this is what America wants to be, I can no longer call myself an American.

[Dungeon Master]

Good points mentioned Scribe.

For you saying you will never call yourself an American any longer? Your right. The terrorist have won.
But I will always call myself an American. I'm proud of the red, white & blue.

[PUGalicious]

For you saying you will never call yourself an American any longer? Your right. The terrorist have won.

You misread and/or misunderstood what I said. What I said was "if this is what America wants to be, I can no longer call myself an American." I don't want to disclaim my identity as an American, but I cannot in good conscience identify with a society that chooses to discriminate and incriminate based on people's ethnicity. I cannot accept racism. It's wrong in every case. And, like I said, if this is where I country has devolved to, yes, the terrorists have won.

But I will always call myself an American. I'm proud of the red, white & blue.

The Germans had a nationalistic patriotism that was similarly resolute in the rise and height of the Third Reich. Such blind loyalty to nationalistic pride can be dangerous. As a Christian, it is tantamount to idolatry and I cannot identify with that. Instead, my loyalty lies solely in Christ and what he represented.

[Didaskalos]

But now I'm going to have to remind some that the U.S. is run on leadership and honor in our freedom. We cannot keep dividing the line of the harsh punishment and let others get away with evil.
I have to ask.

The question is not one of ‘crime either has punishment or does not have punishment’, it is whether the punishment fits the crime. “Harsh” punishment (especially kill in all circumstances and ask questions later) is not appropriate in most circumstances. What would be the response from society if the next time my son takes a toy from my other son, I chop his arm off? This would address the problem, would it not? All or nothing, black and white ideology is dangerous. It is not moral relativity to suggest that there are degrees of evil and degrees of punishment that are appropriate for that evil.

If you are in a room and see a young child holding a gun, his sister holding a knife and their father preparing to behead your child. Someone gives you a gun. Would you wait for due process? Or would you try to protect your child? Which one would you blow away? Don't forget, there are three of them and one of these days, they will go after your grand children. And guess what, they don't care about due process. They're ready to kill.

I think you misunderstand how due process works. There is an act of violence being committed and I must decide the appropriate response to protect my family. I may choose to kill the person and then face the possibility of being charged with a crime. That is fine; I would happily defend my actions. If the situation diffused to where it was no longer life or death and I blow the person away out of revenge, then I believe I have done something wrong. I do have personal experience with this issue. There is a person who wants to hurt or kill someone very close to me. I don’t like that the law is such that the cops will not do anything until she is hurt or killed. Many times I would like to hunt him down and kill him before he can do harm but this is not ‘just’ under our law system. The courts must have due process. If we work outside of the courts, we have anarchy. Being from the military, I would think you could appreciate the danger that anarchy can bring.

This is not really the comparison though is it? The comparison is more corretly - what if a klansman killed my wife and kids and then killed himself immediately after. Do I now hunt down and kill all klansmen? More importantly, do I hunt down all white protestant Christians? I would be angry and I would wish for justice but others being killed unjustly because of my anger doesn’t make it right.

This may sound harsh but guess what. It's now reality.

The reality is that we have extremists willing to attack us on our own soil. What should not be reality is blind racism that blames and condemns anyone with a similar appearance. We have control over that reality.

Did the ones who charished on 9-11 have a due process? I think not.

Of course not but who was responsible and who should we go after to address the crime that was done. Al Queda? I would think so. Bin Laden? I would think so. Al Queda and Bin Laden represent a radical extremist fringe of Islam. What Bin Laden has always wanted is a holy war rather than us viewing him as what he is (a radical extremist). When we articulate ideas like ‘Us vs. Them’ or people saying all Islamic people should be wiped off the planet… guess what – we have given him what he wants. It is not a question of whether we can win this war (perhaps we can) but is wiping out a billion people who do not agree with Bin Laden’s extremism a moral act? If the US is run on leadership and honor, let us lead that way – not with reactionary racism.

We do learn something every day don't we? But then we forget!!!

I have not forgotten what happened on 09/11. I also haven’t forgotten who the ones were that actually attacked us. I haven’t forgotten that Bin Laden still runs free while thousands upon thousands of innocent Arabs have died because of his holy war while a vocal few in my own country want to label all Arabs terrorists. We can label them and then kill them based on that label but it doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t correct the crime that was done on 09/11.

[Curt]

You know, I am not racist at all. I have no problem with anyone that wants to live here and be productive and support America and it's ways, and not try to change our ways to theirs. If they want to keep their ways then they should stay in their own country. Right now, the way things are with jobs going overseas more and more Americans loosing their jobs, how can we justify letting more people in? Scribe, I challenge you to come and live in Dearborn, you will have to learn Arabic though because alot of street signs are being changed to read in Arabic, signs in the local Walgreens telling you what isle the toilet paper is down are now in Arabic. Why do I have to change MY ways for them? yes THEM.

[Dungeon Master]

You know, I am not racist at all. I have no problem with anyone that wants to live here and be productive and support America and it's ways, and not try to change our ways to theirs. If they want to keep their ways then they should stay in their own country. Right now, the way things are with jobs going overseas more and more Americans loosing their jobs, how can we justify letting more people in? Scribe, I challenge you to come and live in Dearborn, you will have to learn Arabic though because alot of street signs are being changed to read in Arabic, signs in the local Walgreens telling you what isle the toilet paper is down are now in Arabic. Why do I have to change MY ways for them? yes THEM.

Exactly.

Press "1" for english.

[PUGalicious]

Exactly.

Press "1" for english.

Maybe it would more accurately represent the expressed sentiment if it said, "press one for white anglo-saxon protestant..."

[PUGalicious]

You know, I am not racist at all.

Your comments suggested otherwise. Words have a way of reflecting what's in the heart.

I have no problem with anyone that wants to live here and be productive and support America and it's ways, and not try to change our ways to theirs. If they want to keep their ways then they should stay in their own country.

I'm sure the Native Americans were thinking the same thing when we were taking over their lands and their customs and their language, etc. etc.

The message on the Statue of Liberty doesn't say, "You're welcome here, but only if you talk like us, act like us, believe like us and live like us."

This country has a rich history of immigrants, because our nation was founded by immigrants. But there are many in this country who ignorantly want to deny this heritage and insist people who live here musth assimilate to our ways (however "our" is defined) to be accepted, many wishing they would look like us, talk like us, act like us, believe like us and live like us.

Right now, the way things are with jobs going overseas more and more Americans loosing their jobs, how can we justify letting more people in?

This is not the fault of immigrants. The blame lies squarely on Corporate America and their conspirators in Washington (i.e. this administration and Congress).

Scribe, I challenge you to come and live in Dearborn, you will have to learn Arabic though because alot of street signs are being changed to read in Arabic, signs in the local Walgreens telling you what isle the toilet paper is down are now in Arabic. Why do I have to change MY ways for them? yes THEM.

Your challenge is not a very realistic one. I'm not simply going to uproot my family so you can prove a point. However, as a matter of fact, I presently live in a neighborhood comprised predominantly of minorities and immigrants. Most of them speak Spanish. It can be difficult at times to communicate with them. Their ways are different from the ways I was brought up in. But, I don't begrudge them of their language or their customs; I learn to live at peace with them.

You don't have to change your ways for them. Just don't hate them. You say you're not racist, but your original comments certainly left a different impression about how you feel about them.

[Curt]

You don't have to change your ways for them

Then why do I have to press"1" for english?

[Dungeon Master]

Then why do I have to press"1" for english?

Yeah, what mariner62 said. Why do WE have to press "1" for english?

[Curt]

The problem is Scribe is this, they all hate us, but still want to live here and want us to accept their ways and bend over backwards to make them comfy. To come here, have babies then collect welfare, that they didnt earn. I see it everyday here. I hear how they can come here and do things they cant get away with in their own country because they know our laws wont punnish them as bad, I have heard this with my own ears. I have to repeatedly call the police on the ones next door because they cant pick up the trash in their yard, and they want me to welcome them with open arms. I myself am part Indian, Chippewa, but I dont expect a thing from the government, Arabs do.

[Didaskalos]

The problem is Scribe is this, they all hate us, but still want to live here and want us to accept their ways and bend over backwards to make them comfy. To come here, have babies then collect welfare, that they didnt earn. I see it everyday here. I hear how they can come here and do things they cant get away with in their own country because they know our laws wont punnish them as bad, I have heard this with my own ears. I have to repeatedly call the police on the ones next door because they cant pick up the trash in their yard, and they want me to welcome them with open arms. I myself am part Indian, Chippewa, but I dont expect a thing from the government, Arabs do.

Either you have very limited contact with Arabs where you are or you happen to know some very atypical Arabs.

To say that they all hate us is just plain wrong. I happen to know quite a few Arabs (a dozen or so quite well). These are people who either came from an Arab nation or are one generation removed. What you describe above is nothing like the people I know and it is nothing like the people I correspond with in Lebanon.

I my experience, which I assure you is considerably more than 99% of the American population, Islamic people are extremly respectful, extremly responsible, very moral and kindhearted people. Not to mention, their work ethic puts the American workers to shame.

Are there some that are not respectful, not responsible, not moral, not kindhearted, and lazy with a desire to take advantage? Of course there are but there are plenty of white people in the same boat. It is not their Arab roots that makes them those things because that is not what their culture stands for (irregardless of the unsupported generalizations of right wing radio).

These generalizations are exactly what escalates extremism. All I can say is I hope you don't believe all that you are saying.

[Curt]

Either you have very limited contact with Arabs where you are or you happen to know some very atypical Arabs.


These generalizations are exactly what escalates extremism. All I can say is I hope you don't believe all that you are saying.

Limited contact? I live next door to them and see them everyday, and have to listen to them everyday.

I beleive what I am saying because I SEE it everyday.

[Didaskalos]

Limited contact? I live next door to them and see them everyday, and have to listen to them everyday.

I beleive what I am saying because I SEE it everyday.

I live with them and talk to them everyday as well. Your observations might be right but so might mine. If mine are equally right, then the statement "they all hate us" cannot be accurate and represents a gross generalization.