What is a liveable annual income? (Opinion Thread)

[mmonroe]

What would you say would be a liveable annual income?

[SoonerDave]

What would you say would be a liveable annual income?

I don't think there's a simple answer to that question. There are widely varying and largely subjective standards on what constitutes a mode of living that is minimally acceptable or appropriate. Further complicating the notion is the equallly widely varying costs-of-living around the country, too.

[PennyQuilts]

I personally think amount of debt is just as important - or more. There are some expenses that are common for most people - cable, internet, phones, utilities, sports and classes for their kids but from there, things can sharply diverge. Moreover, families have a lot of discretion on how much they want to eat out - and where. Some have kids in day care while others either stay home with them or get Grandma to help. Some people take inexpensive vacations and others go to Europe and Disneyworld every year.

A couple with young kids that make an upper middle class salary but have a big mortgage, a couple car payments and insurance, short term credit debt, private elementary schools for their kids, student loan debt, support their church, an expensive hobby, etc. are probably going to be living paycheck to paycheck and losing ground by the month.

Contrast that with someone with kids in public school, own a modest home, have late model cars that are paid for, and who garden and bird watch for hobbies. All things being equal, they just don't need that much and even making half of what the first example makes they are probably more financially comfortable.

[Spartan]

...and some people don't have kids. Don't forget about that possibility that factors in.

[Easy180]

In Oklahoma...30-35k

[Chadanth]

25% more than whatever you're making right now.

[BBatesokc]

What would you say would be a liveable annual income?

Too many variables for a real answer.

1.) How do 'you' define 'livable' and how does that compare to how everyone else does?
Some would say a roof over your head, food in the cupboard, a job and a way to get there is all you need. Others would argue those things plus $125/month smartphones, $150/month cable, $120 tennis shoes etc. are 'necessities.'

2.) 'Livable' where? City, suburbs, country, BFE.......?

3.) At what age? (believe me, that can make a huge difference)

4.) Livable wage after or before you've reached certain milestones (kids, home, retirement, etc.)?

I know people that are perfectly content to live in a studio apartment and ride their bike or the bus everywhere they go. I know people that (mostly based on their culture) are perfectly fine living with family and sharing all expenses. Then I know people that would consider it completely unacceptable to be living in anything less than a $400,000 home with a brand new car every year. And, of course there are people that fall all over the map in between.

For my wife and I, we are very low maintenance. We don't make 'a lot' but we do pretty good. We are very thrifty and find we are just as happy when we have extra to spend and when times are tight. If need be, I take on an extra job to help ourselves or family. I personally think it comes down to simply being happy with whatever hand in life you are currently being dealt and a mindset to overcome.

[Zuplar]

I get there are a lot of factors, but to me livable is something where you can say you have some nice things, maybe not everything is 100% what you want, but still better off than most. I'd put that number at $60k. With that I'd expect to be able to take care of 2 children and send them to college.

[PennyQuilts]

Depends on your expenses. No kids or Kids already raised/educated, no mortgage, car payments or other debt means nearly anything you have is discretionary income. Not fun but you could live well below the poverty line and still be warm and well fed. Put that paid off home in a nice neighborhood and even with a piddling income, you can "feel" middle class.

[OKCTalker]

Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The five are (in order): Physiological, safety, love/belonging, esteem and self-actualization.

[Just the facts]

If you live where you need a car to function as a part of society you need $10,000 per year (on average) right off the top. If you need 2 cars that goes to $20,000 (on average).

[PennyQuilts]

If you live where you need a car to function as a part of society you need $10,000 per year (on average) right off the top. If you need 2 cars that goes to $20,000 (on average).

Ten thousand per car? Twenty thousand for two? Why? We have a fully insured '97 minivan, work primarily from home and the cost of insurance and the tag is under $300.00 a year. I have no idea where you are getting your stats but they're way, way, way off. We have two other paid off other cars (2005 and 2006) and all three are insured and tagged. Easily less than $4,000.00 a year including gasoline.

[Mr. Cotter]

Ten thousand per car? Twenty thousand for two? Why? We have a fully insured '97 minivan, work primarily from home and the cost of insurance and the tag is under $300.00 a year. I have no idea where you are getting your stats but they're way, way, way off. We have two other paid off other cars (2005 and 2006) and all three are insured and tagged. Easily less than $4,000.00 a year including gasoline.

It's an average. I spend way less than that too, even if you include depreciation and amortized initial cost/finance of a now paid off 12 and 13 year old car. Your $4000 figure assumes you got the cars for free initially.

AAA puts this out every year, and has for decades: http://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/u...Costs-2013.pdf

[ctchandler]

PQ,
I think he means car payments as well as full insurance. Do you really carry collision on your 97? Most people I know would have dropped it. I didn't have collision on my 2001 van, it was only worth about $3,000. I pay $800 per year for full insurance, no tickets or collisions since I was 21 (I'm 70) and if I weren't retired, my round trip to work would cost me at least $7.00 per day, $1,540 per year in fuel, and then there is maintenance and repairs. And I didn't mention non work use of the vehicle. With a $400-$500 car payment, $4,800-$6,000 per year it's not hard to get to $10,000.
C. T.

Ten thousand per car? Twenty thousand for two? Why? We have a fully insured '97 minivan, work primarily from home and the cost of insurance and the tag is under $300.00 a year. I have no idea where you are getting your stats but they're way, way, way off. We have two other paid off other cars (2005 and 2006) and all three are insured and tagged. Easily less than $4,000.00 a year including gasoline.

[PennyQuilts]

PQ,
I think he means car payments as well as full insurance. Do you really carry collision on your 97? Most people I know would have dropped it. I didn't have collision on my 2001 van, it was only worth about $3,000. I pay $800 per year for full insurance, no tickets or collisions since I was 21 (I'm 70) and if I weren't retired, my round trip to work would cost me at least $7.00 per day, $1,540 per year in fuel, and then there is maintenance and repairs. And I didn't mention non work use of the vehicle. With a $400-$500 car payment, $4,800-$6,000 per year it's not hard to get to $10,000.
C. T.

Yes, we actually do have all of them fully covered - it isn't that much at this stage. I probably wouldn't pay for it but my husband is insistent. We do all our insurance - house, car, etc with the same company and that seems to help. Honestly, I can't imagine going back to having a car payment like that - which is one of the reasons we stick to later model cars. I think when you are used to it, 400 - 500 a month seems normal. When you go any length of time without it, it seem crazy. We paid off that car in 2000 and I will never, ever shackle myself like that, again. For car insurance, we pay about 600 a year for my 2006, and 400 to 450 a year on the 2005. The 1997 is pretty much a pittance. There was a time when I used a lot of gasoline but no more.

[Just the facts]

Ten thousand per car? Twenty thousand for two? Why? We have a fully insured '97 minivan, work primarily from home and the cost of insurance and the tag is under $300.00 a year. I have no idea where you are getting your stats but they're way, way, way off. We have two other paid off other cars (2005 and 2006) and all three are insured and tagged. Easily less than $4,000.00 a year including gasoline.

In 2014 the average car payment is $415 per month (just under $5,000 per year). Consumers buy about $3,000 worth of gasoline annually. Add in insurance, routine maintenance (oil changes), repairs, etc... and on average - Americans spend right around $10,000 per year per car. Of course, that is just the direct cost.

Anyhow, regardless of what an individual spends on transportation, it has to be factored into a 'livable' income because not everyone wants a '97 minivan.

[BBatesokc]

If you live where you need a car to function as a part of society you need $10,000 per year (on average) right off the top. If you need 2 cars that goes to $20,000 (on average).

As someone who owns 4-5 cars at any given time, I strongly disagree. I spend nowhere near $40-$50K a year on my cars. And right now I have a nice Prius, Volvo SUV, Infinity SUV and a Ford sitting in my driveway.

[AP]

As someone who owns 4-5 cars at any given time, I strongly disagree. I spend nowhere near $40-$50K a year on my cars. And right now I have a nice Prius, Volvo SUV, Infinity SUV and a Ford sitting in my driveway.

I don't see how it's possible that you're not paying close to that. Volvo and Infinity are not cheap brands, so at some point you were paying that. Maybe not now. But you were.

[BBatesokc]

I don't see how it's possible that you're not paying close to that. Volvo and Infinity are not cheap brands, so at some point you were paying that. Maybe not now. But you were.

Its very possible.

For example: Bought my 2006 Infinity FX35 in late 2009 for $18,000 cash. I just checked my Quickbooks and there has only been one repair for $125 and I usually do my own oil changes for about $25 using good quality products. Replaced the tires for $675. Insurance for that car is about $90/month (I just looked at what we pay and estimated per car). I don't have a way to calculate the gas for that specific car.

So, that means that so far this one car has cost me just over $5,300 per year. Keep in mind, the longer I have it (without major repairs) the actual cost to own it per year will go down as the biggest expense was the purchase and I did that in full on day one and the tires shouldn't need replacing for several years.

The Infinity is the most expensive of the cars I've bought in recent memory (lost 50%+ of its value in the first 3 years - don't ever buy new!) - which is why I used it as the example. I paid almost half that for the Prius and the Volvo is a XC90 and I paid 80% less than the original price for it and it only has 80,000 miles. I'll keep those cars for probably 5 years and in that time they will cost me far less than $5,000 per year. I could sell the prius today for almost what I paid for it.

Not to mention, other recent cars I've owned - like a Jeep Liberty Renegade - I made money on the purchase price when I resold it and only had the cars for about a year and did nothing to them. So, in the end they cost me insurance and gas and I got a little of that back when I resold them.

As far as "at some point you were paying that" - Well, yeah, you could say the first year I paid $18,000+ to own the Infinity. But that's not an accurate way to view the actual cost unless the car blew up the first year and wasn't insured - thus considered a total loss.

[Garin]

Cell phone not a necessity, New car or car in general not a necessity, Health insurance not a necessity, cable not a necessity , internet not a necessity, mortgages not a necessity, fast food not a necessity, clubbing not a necessity , booze not a necessity, credit cards not a necessity, entertainment budget not a necessity, and the list goes on and on of non essential items. That being said a single person or a a married couple would not require a lot of income to create a livable life.

[sacolton]

Start everyone off with $50,000/year ...

Add $5,000 for every child (under 18).

[td25er]

Cell phone not a necessity, New car or car in general not a necessity, Health insurance not a necessity, cable not a necessity , internet not a necessity, mortgages not a necessity, fast food not a necessity, clubbing not a necessity , booze not a necessity, credit cards not a necessity, entertainment budget not a necessity, and the list goes on and on of non essential items. That being said a single person or a a married couple would not require a lot of income to create a livable life.

Good luck with emergencies...

[Garin]

Good luck with emergencies...

Hospitals will set up a payment plan or just write you off completely , And what did people do before cell phones?

[BBatesokc]

Hospitals will set up a payment plan or just write you off completely , And what did people do before cell phones?

In my world...... hospitals will sue you to get their money and 'writing you off' means the rest of us pay the bill.

As for cell phones........ I would say that, yes, they are as close to a necessity these days as it gets. Do you need one to 'survive' day-to-day? No. But its a tool that comes pretty close to a requirement.

What did people do before lots of different things (antibiotics, 911, electricity, etc.) Doesn't make for much of an argument IMO.

[hoya]

Depends what you mean by liveable. If you mean the ability to survive, then you don't need much. I think about what my dad grew up with (which was not a lot) and realize that I could get by with much less. But if you mean liveable as in playing an active role in modern society, doing the things that the average American does on a regular basis, then you need substantially more.

You could eat beans and rice, and canned spinach every day for a tiny amount of money. Is that what we're talking about?