Ed Shadid Launches Formal Attack on MAPS 3 Conv Center in tandem with Mayoral Bid

[Urban Pioneer]

A petition has been filed to halt funding for a new hotel and convention center in downtown Oklahoma City, which would cost an estimated $250 million in MAPS 3 funding.

Tim Farley January 2nd, 2014

A citizens group led by Oklahoma City’s Ward 2 Councilman Ed Shadid plans to ask voters to prevent the construction of the MAPS 3 downtown convention center.
Shadid claims city and Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce officials were not honest with voters before the 2009 MAPS 3 election, particularly with the convention center project and a related convention center hotel. The convention center could cost taxpayers an estimated $250 million, but the hotel would not receive MAPS 3 funding.

Voters approved the extension of the MAPS 3 one-cent sales tax in 2009, but not specific projects.

READ MORE HERE- Oklahoma Gazette News: Another hotel and convention center?

[Pete]

Not sure if this is the best way to handle this but the whole thing with the convention center has been a bit shady.

1. Consultants say the CC won't work without an expensive, adjacent hotel
2. Consultants also say that the City would have to come up with at least $50 million to subsidize said hotel
3. The CC was moved up in the MAPS 3 schedule even though the hotel issue is completely unresolved
4. The City is in the act of acquiring very expensive land for the CC with the hotel issue unresolved


So, why are we moving forward with something we know won't work without another piece which is completely up in the air?

Why not resolve the hotel issue BEFORE we spend more money (plenty has already been spent on consultants) on the CC?

[rcjunkie]

True, let's stop the CC construction and while were at it, tear down the baseball stadium, fill in the canal, rip up the new sidewalks, bulldoze the remodeled schools. Why would we want this City to grow and proper.

[Urban Pioneer]

I personally agree with Larry Nichols. He has stated that he thinks the free market ought to take care of the hotel needs.

Even our own Mayor Cornett, hasn't jumped on the "we should build a hotel" bandwagon.

I wasn't exactly the biggest supporter of the CC either. But after visiting many cities and actually participating in several conventions (both as a attendee and a vendor with a booth), I understand why there is a push for a new building / complex.

[mkjeeves]

Some people might should have let Ed have his chickens.

[Pete]

I personally agree with Larry Nichols. He has stated that he thinks the free market ought to take care of the hotel needs.

Meaning that we should just build the CC and hope someone wants to develop the hotel?

The problem with that is our paid consultants who told us we needed this in the first place are also saying it won't work without the hotel, and that the City will have to pump in at least $50 million. Or do I have that wrong?

[Urban Pioneer]

Meaning that we should just build the CC and hope someone wants to develop the hotel?

The problem with that is our paid consultants who told us we needed this in the first place are also saying it won't work without the hotel, and that the City will have to pump in at least $50 million. Or do I have that wrong?

The way I interpreted his comments is that the "free market" should handle the load in a distributed way. Of course, I personally believe that the streetcar connects almost all of the existing hotel stock to the site and there are plenty of sites still available along the line for hotels. Why do we have to do a Convention Center hotel like everyone else? Why can't transit connectivity to free market solutions resolve the issue?

[OKCisOK4me]

Hey, if he wins, just send that ole money on over to the Streetcar project. That'd be fanTAStic!

[Urban Pioneer]

Hey, if he wins, just send that ole money on over to the Streetcar project. That'd be fanTAStic!

You missed the second part where they are running a second initiative to end the tax early instead of allowing the $250 million to accrue without a cause. Assuming they pull it off, I suspect that would really affect our timing in developing Regional Transit Authority framework vote.

[bchris02]

Hey, if he wins, just send that ole money on over to the Streetcar project. That'd be fanTAStic!

The convention center is more important, in my opinion, than the streetcar. As I said in the other thread, the Cox Center, today, is an appropriate convention center/arena for a city the size of Little Rock or Wichita. Does anybody seriously think the Cox Center will suffice for OKC in 20 years if population growth remains steady? What if the Peake had never been built and the Cox Arena was all that OKC had? It's incredibly shortsighted to attempt to derail this convention center. OKC will never get big name conventions - the kind of thing bring major dollars into the city and huge exposure to businesses and tourists - without this new convention center.

[Urban Pioneer]

LOL. That's awesome Mkjeeves. This strikes me more as a ploy to change the conversation away from his personal matters. I do think that they can raise 6,000 signatures though. It is entirely possible.

[kevinpate]

... I do think that they can raise 6,000 signatures though. It is entirely possible.

Given the historic levels of nay votes on any MAPs project, if someone can't secure 6000 signatures, in record time, to force a vote to cut a temp tax by near on 1/3 and do away with a CC that even a lot of supporters aren't backflipping supporters but are lukewarm yeah, ok I can put up with it supporters, then frankly, they ain't even tried to get it done.

That's not to say I think it absolutely ought to be trashed. Only that if there is a project that someone can whip up folks over, it would be the cc. I don't think one even has to concentrate on the aginner crowd. There was no shortage of folks who loved other parts of MAPs that held their nose and now would be just as happy to not fret the cc bing on the horizon.

Sort of makes me wonder if Ed truly, truly hated the street car or if it was just used as a ruse to start whipping up emotions in general before hunting the big game.

[Urban Pioneer]

Sort of makes me wonder if Ed truly, truly hated the street car or if it was just used as a ruse to start whipping up emotions in general before hunting the big game.

Both. He wants the streetcar money for buses even though he doesn't have a solution for the ongoing operating costs of said buses. 2nd, he knows that the streetcar has historically been supported by a majority of Oklahomacitian's and has organized support. He has beat us up over the streetcar but we have beat him up on his attempts to "revoke the vote" for it as well. Nobody on the streetcar project doesn't support broader transit improvements. And that is why we support the formation of the Regional Transit Authority (ideally when the MAPS 3 tax was projected to end in 2017).

MAPS 3 passed and not installing it as promoted to the voters is incredibly patronizing by Ed.

[betts]

Sort of makes me wonder if Ed truly, truly hated the street car or if it was just used as a ruse to start whipping up emotions in general before hunting the big game.

Ed only knows how to break, not to build. He represents chaos, not consensus. He's the worst thing I can think of for a city. Yes, he was truly against the streetcar. My guess is that he's looked at the popularity of the convention center project. It had the lowest approval of any of the projects. He figures if he has a chance with anything, it will be stopping the convention center. I do wonder, though, since none of the projects were listed on the ballot, how you legally remove something that no one voted on in the first place.

My second thought is: for someone who rails against the city spending money on things it doesn't need, what we really don't need to do is spend money to redo an election. Do we keep voting until he gets the answer he wants?

And, does he really think that he can redirect that money somewhere else? He wants money for the bus system, but he's doing a marvelous job of uniting multiple coalitions against him. People will vote against things because he proposes them, regardless of their merit. He truly is a narcicisst. Bad, bad, bad personality trait for someone leading people - unless you want a dictator.

[flintysooner]

Ed only knows how to break, not to build. He represents chaos, not consensus.

I was just reading comments from people on his facebook page and came to the same conclusion. Those commenting do not seem to me to want to build anything but destroy everything possible.

[shawnw]

I do wonder, though, since none of the projects were listed on the ballot, how you legally remove something that no one voted on in the first place.

Maybe he's doing an end-around to kill the streetcar. Legally invalidate one MAPS III project and invalidate them all, stop the tax collection immediately after the vote, all projects not yet funded die.

[betts]

Maybe he's doing an end-around to kill the streetcar. Legally invalidate one MAPS III project and invalidate them all, stop the tax collection immediately after the vote, all projects not yet funded die.

That's my question. How do you legally invalidate one when it wasn't on the ballot? No one voted for or against a convention center specifically, or anything else.

[OKCisOK4me]

Yep, missed that, Jeff!

I don't know who is worse...Ed Shadid against OKC or Obama against USA (for all the conspiracy nuts, lol).

[Pete]

^

Because we paid a ton of money to consultants who told us we needed this and how to build it, and they were very specific about the attached hotel.

Seems like very dangerous business to disregard their advice in one area; just pick and choose what we want to do because of budget constraints?


Ed's point is that the City knew the hotel had to be a part of this and that it would cost taxpayers a bunch of money, but they withheld that information. Now, it's come out and we're proceeding anyway?

As I said, I'm not sure this is the best way to handle the situation but it is one that needs to be addressed, and soon. They are already way down the line on this.


If the decision is to just take our chances with the hotel, that should be stated.

[Urban Pioneer]

Pete I guess I don't know what the dynamics are in the Convention Center being considered "successful". We are paying for the Convention Center structure with cash. In the basic sense, it is our new "living room" for the city and those visiting us.

If we don't have enough business, why don't we tear down the Cox and put that site up for redevelopment? Surely we would be at least meeting existing annual attendance with some new attendance as well? Enough to keep the place maintained you would think.

[Pete]

I'm just saying we need to have a specific plan before spending $250 million (at least) on something that won't work without the hotel.

It's not just the money... It's about having a possible white elephant taking the entire area between the Myriad Gardens and two other massive tax-fueled developments: the boulevard and Central Park.


It just seems capricious to go forward in this manner... Just hoping things will work out even though the consultants have told us that it won't.

[onthestrip]

I'm just saying we need to have a specific plan before spending $250 million (at least) on something that won't work without the hotel.

It's not just the money... It's about having a possible white elephant taking the entire area between the Myriad Gardens and two other massive tax-fueled developments: the boulevard and Central Park.


It just seems capricious to go forward in this manner... Just hoping things will work out even though the consultants have told us that it won't.

I'm having a hard team believing the thinking that the new convention simply won't work without a 500+ room hotel that we are supposed to subsidize. I say build the convention center and wait it out or simply don't build a hotel and let them do what current convention goers do now, stay at on of the other dozen downtown hotels.

[Pete]

I'm having a hard team believing the thinking that the new convention simply won't work without a 500+ room hotel that we are supposed to subsidize. I say build the convention center and wait it out or simply don't build a hotel and let them do what current convention goers do now, stay at on of the other dozen downtown hotels.

But on that basis, how do you know the CC would work at all?

The consultants we paid a ton of money to and that are considered experts said it would ONLY work with the hotel. Which is another way of saying it won't work without it.

[LakeEffect]

But on that basis, how do you know the CC would work at all?

The consultants we paid a ton of money to and that are considered experts said it would ONLY work with the hotel. Which is another way of saying it won't work without it.

Isn't a separate consultant on board and under contract w/ the Alliance to develop specific funding/development ideas for the hotel? Not sure when that will be ready, but I think it's relatively soon...

[onthestrip]

But on that basis, how do you know the CC would work at all?

The consultants we paid a ton of money to and that are considered experts said it would ONLY work with the hotel. Which is another way of saying it won't work without it.

First, I see this new convention simply as a shiny new replacement for our current and not attractive center. I'm sure it can get a few more events and host more at once but I'm not expecting it to bring comic con or the consumer electronic show, because we won't get those big events with or without a hotel. I'm fine with it being a new, modern update to the cox center.

Second, I'm not inclined to believe everything these consultants say. The ones we have mostly heard from were picked by the powers that be to "consult" us because they will show positive things about the convention industry. Shadid did or tried to bring in a consultant that says the opposite about the convention industry.

We voted and passed this maps because of the things in it and nothing more. I think as soon as we don't build something as was stated on the ballot, or try to add more, we can kiss the maps franchise goodbye.