Community Storm Shelters

[Teo9969]

It would seem rational to me that OK would have some sort of implementation of community underground shelters. With as much vacant land as is around even our most densely developed areas, I would think it would be relatively easy and inexpensive to put in massive shelters where hundreds/thousands of people who don't have shelters could go in the case of an emergency. How difficult would it be to put one under the parking lot of every public school?

[ou48A]

PER CH 9
Apparently, today there is a proposal to float a 400 million dollar state bond issue to help build storm shelters in Oklahoma schools…. Another 100 million would go toward helping business and home owners to buy storm shelters… Now if we can just strengthen state building codes I would feel better.

Without knowing the details I would generally favor such a bond issue.

[ou48A]

PER CH 9
Apparently, today there is a proposal to float a 400 million dollar state bond issue to help build storm shelters in Oklahoma schools…. Another 100 million would go toward helping business and home owners to buy storm shelters… Now if we can just strengthen state building codes I would feel better.

Without knowing the details I would generally favor such a bond issue.

Link to above info.
Joe Dorman - Press Releases

[ljbab728]

It would seem rational to me that OK would have some sort of implementation of community underground shelters. With as much vacant land as is around even our most densely developed areas, I would think it would be relatively easy and inexpensive to put in massive shelters where hundreds/thousands of people who don't have shelters could go in the case of an emergency. How difficult would it be to put one under the parking lot of every public school?

Some cities have closed previously used shelters to the public during severe weather because it was felt it was too dangerous to have people trying to get to them during situations like that.

Mustang Times, School no longer open as public shelters

[ou48A]

This is why we need stronger NEW home build codes in Oklahoma!

Protecting Your House

At the conference on the Great Plains tornado of May 3, 1999 held in May 2000 in Oklahoma City, many engineers and meteorologists drew attention to the fact that there are many things the homeowner can do to make his/her home more wind-resistant.

Even in the Oklahoma City tornado, only limited areas experienced the most severe winds. Damage to most houses in the tornado path could have been greatly minimized with better construction.

It IS possible to make an existing home more wind-resistant from strong winds, hurricanes and even weaker tornadic winds, at reasonable cost

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/weweb/Shelt...tion.php#House

[Plutonic Panda]

Things need to change. All hospitals, schools, apartments buildings, and high density residential should have storm shelters to accommodate it's people. Further more, I don't believe in general community storm shelters because it encourages people to drive out and try and beat the storm, who live in low density suburban neighborhoods.

*Homes and businesses should have stronger building codes.

*It should be mandatory for businesses to have reinforced bathrooms for shelter

*They should find a way or make a law the regulates profits made by storm shelter companies in an attempt to lower the cost of storm shelters

*Rebates should also be available in tornado prone areas like much of Oklahoma

*I also believe that parking garages should have a center storm shelter as well

[OKCTalker]

ou48A - I disagree. This debate always ensues after severe weather, so here goes...

I don't want the government telling me that I should build to withstand a certain level of storm because as we have always known (and witnessed yesterday) you can die even in a well-constructed underground shelter. Also, I've lived here my entire life and have never even seen a tornado, so why should I have to build to that standard?

If you want to build to that standard, please go ahead. Underground shelter, be my guest. Underground house, that's your call. I merely ask that you don't impose those things on me. Because in the extraordinarily rare chance that they'll be tested, they may not work.

[Plutonic Panda]

ou48A - I disagree. This debate always ensues after severe weather, so here goes...

I don't want the government telling me that I should build to withstand a certain level of storm because as we have always known (and witnessed yesterday) you can die even in a well-constructed underground shelter. Also, I've lived here my entire life and have never even seen a tornado, so why should I have to build to that standard?

If you want to build to that standard, please go ahead. Underground shelter, be my guest. Underground house, that's your call. I merely ask that you don't impose those things on me. Because in the extraordinarily rare chance that they'll be tested, they may not work.

It's not really for you as for building a new standard for homebuilders.

[ou48A]

ou48A - I disagree. This debate always ensues after severe weather, so here goes...

I don't want the government telling me that I should build to withstand a certain level of storm because as we have always known (and witnessed yesterday) you can die even in a well-constructed underground shelter. Also, I've lived here my entire life and have never even seen a tornado, so why should I have to build to that standard?

If you want to build to that standard, please go ahead. Underground shelter, be my guest. Underground house, that's your call. I merely ask that you don't impose those things on me. Because in the extraordinarily rare chance that they'll be tested, they may not work.

You may not want the government telling you anything and I really don’t either, but let me tell you why it’s in this case it’s in everyone best interest.
Fly debris that cause’s a great deal of the damage. The flying debris from your weak built home will be flying around hitting other homes that may be more strongly constructed. Once compromised a home can blow up much like a balloon blows up creating damage that may not otherwise occur.
While you and most others don’t discuss this topic very often I can assure you that this topic has been scientifically studied by the world’s leading experts and I have read some of their findings for years.
The studies have discovered that for very little additional cost home can be made far stronger.

Florida building codes are basically what we need for new construction IMHO in Oklahoma.
Similar building codes would reduce damage, death, and injuries and the associated cost for many generations. It would reduce the cost of lifelong lasting injures that the state is often force to pick up the cost for.

I think we have reached a point in our society that you shouldn’t have the right to construct something that would likely present an unnecessary hazard to your neighbor’s for many generations to come and likely for a very long time after you have died…

Stronger building codes are like very, very cheap insurance that will last for generations make our life’s more secure and over a very long period of time pay for them self’s

Always Remember
“Damage to most houses in the tornado path could have been greatly minimized with better construction. It IS possible to make an existing home more wind-resistant from strong winds, hurricanes, and even weaker tornado winds, at reasonable cost”
And that’s why we need stronger home build codes in Oklahoma… When other states do this it’s not difficult.

[Plutonic Panda]

You may not want the government telling you anything and I really don’t either, but let me tell you why it’s in this case it’s in everyone best interest.
Fly debris that cause’s a great deal of the damage. The flying debris from your weak built home will be flying around hitting other homes that may be more strongly constructed. Once compromised a home can blow up much like a balloon blows up creating damage that may not otherwise occur.
While you and most others don’t discuss this topic very often I can assure you that this topic has been scientifically studied by the world’s leading experts and I have read some of their findings for years.
The studies have discovered that for very little additional cost home can be made far stronger.

Florida building codes are basically what we need for new construction IMHO in Oklahoma.
Similar building codes would reduce damage, death, and injuries and the associated cost for many generations. It would reduce the cost of lifelong lasting injures that the state is often force to pick up the cost for.

I think we have reached a point in our society that you shouldn’t have the right to construct something that would likely present an unnecessary hazard to your neighbor’s for many generations to come and likely for a very long time after you have died…

Stronger building codes are like very, very cheap insurance that will last for generations make our life’s more secure and over a very long period of time pay for them self’s

Always Remember
“Damage to most houses in the tornado path could have been greatly minimized with better construction. It IS possible to make an existing home more wind-resistant from strong winds, hurricanes, and even weaker tornado winds, at reasonable cost”
And that’s why we need stronger home build codes in Oklahoma… When other states do this it’s not difficult.

+1

[MadMonk]

Yeah, I don't view this as any different that plumbing and electrical codes. Things like strapping on rafters, etc. and an underground shelter don't really add that much to the cost of a new home's construction.

[ou48A]

Yeah, I don't view this as any different that plumbing and electrical codes. Things like strapping on rafters, etc. and an underground shelter don't really add that much to the cost of a new home's construction.

Exactly right
It’s pretty cheap to build a much stronger home

[adaniel]

The fallacy of human supremacy tends to arise after moments like these.

All the technology in the world is not going to save you from a direct hit from an F5 tornado. New building standards are not going to help your home withstand 300+ mph winds.

Wind speeds at that level bend rebar. And I'm pretty sure I heard stories of safe rooms failing. Unless you plan on making everyone live underground, there really is little way to protect yourself in a tornado that size outside of a good ol storm cellar or, at the very lest, a certain level of weather awareness.

I wouldn't mind if the state brought back credits for building storm shelters.

[ou48A]

The fallacy of human supremacy tends to arise after moments like these.

All the technology in the world is not going to save you from a direct hit from an F5 tornado. New building standards are not going to help your home withstand 300+ mph winds.

Wind speeds at that level bend rebar. And I'm pretty sure I heard stories of safe rooms failing. Unless you plan on making everyone live underground, there really is little way to protect yourself in a tornado that size outside of a good ol storm cellar or, at the very lest, a certain level of weather awareness.

I wouldn't mind if the state brought back credits for building storm shelters.

Building a home that would survive a direct EF5 hit is not the goal.

[venture]

Building a home that would survive a direct EF5 hit is not the goal.

Indeed. My family tested a newer home design a few years ago up north. The exterior walls are made with a new concrete with steel reinforcements, the roof is all hurricane compliant, and some other design improvements to where it can withstand winds of 130-150 mph. Many of those improvements and what OU48 is speaking of should all be basic requirements here. For no other reason to even protect against damaging wind events as well.

[oki]

The fallacy of human supremacy tends to arise after moments like these.

All the technology in the world is not going to save you from a direct hit from an F5 tornado. New building standards are not going to help your home withstand 300+ mph winds.

Wind speeds at that level bend rebar. And I'm pretty sure I heard stories of safe rooms failing. Unless you plan on making everyone live underground, there really is little way to protect yourself in a tornado that size outside of a good ol storm cellar or, at the very lest, a certain level of weather awareness.

I wouldn't mind if the state brought back credits for building storm shelters.

Agree.

Fortunately EF5s are not very common here.

I don't support a mandate of all new homes having to be steel structure or otherwise storm-ready behind the standard 90 mph wind withstanding.

Most homes just aren't hit by tornadoes. There's only a slight probability that your home will be directly hit by a tornado.

"For any given year, the chances of your house being hit by a violent tornado are about 10-5 X 0.01, or about one in 10 million (10-7). In 30 years of living in that house, there are roughly 3 chances in 1,000,000 of having that home flattened by the F4-F5 winds in a violent tornado." (Source: Violent Tornado Probability)

I would imagine that fire, flood, car accident, falling down stairs, cancer, and other risks are a greater risk to your safety than your home being directly hit by a tornado.

We can't prepare for everything, and have to be reasonable with costs vs. risk.

A backyard underground storm shelter for a few thousand dollars yields a good return on investment for a relatively low risk threat.

With that said, people really should be weather conscious and seek the best shelter available when there is the risk. Mobile home residents must, must seek alternative shelter. People should take the best available shelter they can find, not watch the storm outside, not stay in a mobile home, not drive around, not ignore the storm, not stay by windows, etc. The odds of your house being completely leveled by a direct hit from a tornado are very, very low--- but trees falling, windows breaking, etc. are a real threat. Low risks of danger isn't an excuse to ignore tornado warnings. It's like wearing a car seatbeat. Usually you'll be ok without one, but the "cost" of wearing a car seat belt is low. The "cost" of getting under a mattress in the bathtub during a tornado warning, or getting in your backyard underground storm shelter, during a tornado warning is low. It's a worthwhile effort to protect yourself. Like I said, I think people should pay attention to the weather, seek shelter during warnings, and even consider an underground storm shelter in their backyard if they can easily afford it. I don't think it's necessary to build a new home that can withstand 300 mph winds with the very low odds of your house being completely wiped out by a tornado. Plus, the odds of an EF5 hitting are low. If you go stand outside or stay in a mobile home during even a weaker tornado, your odds of getting hurt are much greater. Cost vs. risk.

[venture]

We'll probably see rebate checks for shelters come back, so hopefully we see enough money for that. Doing a quick search has Oklahoma Shelters quoting 4x6 safe rooms starting at $3800 and underground shelters at about $2500. So putting things into perspective, the $40 million the state is spending on the Indian museum no tribe seemed to want, would get over 26,000 underground shelters.

As we are seeing though. Safe rooms are great, but they aren't going to withstand the 200+ mph winds of an EF-5 tornado (noting that they've modified the wind speeds with the newer Enhanced Fujita scale. Jim Gardner on KWTV said he has yet to find a standing safe room in any house - if any even had them to begin with.

It reinforces Gary's line of "underground is always best."

[ou48A]

As can be seen on this graphic not all the winds in EF - 5 tornados do EF-5 damage and while it would be costly to build homes that would substantially survive EF 4’s and EF’s 5, it’s not very costly to build homes that would substanually survive the EF2 and lower rated tornados. The Moore tornados, as with most other strong tornadoes, have done a great deal of damage with their weaker winds. Better building codes would in most cases make the serious damage path much smaller.

Homes and other buildings built with better building codes would likely have lowered insurance premiums that over a long period of time would probably save enough money to pay for most of the items that strengthen a home/ business building. Not to mention the added safety for people, pets and their belongings.

Eventually the insurance industry is likely going to require better building codes for new construction, rather we want it or not.

[Teo9969]

As can be seen on this graphic not all the winds in EF - 5 tornados do EF-5 damage and while it would be costly to build homes that would substantially survive EF 4’s and EF’s 5, it’s not very costly to build homes that would substanually survive the EF2 and lower rated tornados. The Moore tornados, as with most other strong tornadoes, have done a great deal of damage with their weaker winds. Better building codes would in most cases make the serious damage path much smaller.

Homes and other buildings built with better building codes would likely have lowered insurance premiums that over a long period of time would probably save enough money to pay for most of the items that strengthen a home/ business building. Not to mention the added safety for people, pets and their belongings.

Eventually the insurance industry is likely going to require better building codes for new construction, rather we want it or not.

In Oklahoma, this has to be the case. Insurance companies are getting demolished in this state, and it's only going to get worse as we continue to grow.

Even so, on some level, building stronger buildings is only going to go so far in limiting debris. There will still be vehicles, fences, large animals, old buildings, earth, loose rocks, grills, large hail, etc.

[ljbab728]

Something that occurred to me that I had almost totally forgotten is my early grade school. I attended the Pleasant Valley rural one room school just NW of Norman in the 50's. It had a storm cellar directly next to the school. We never used it while I was there except to play on the cement top, but having a safe place for school children is not a new concept.

[flintysooner]

I think those oil field shelters are really interesting. Red Dog Mobile Shelters.

Forgot the link: http://www.reddogmobileshelters.com/

[OKCTalker]

Let's get some hard information into the discussion. Does anyone know how many Oklahoma structures - residential and commercial - exist in Oklahoma, and how many of those sustain structural damage or are destroyed in a year? Multiply by 40 or 50 to get the useful life of a "typical" structure and you'll determine the lifetime chances that a building is significantly affected. I'm not talking about a roof totalled by hail (property damage), this discussion is about constructing to a level above what we currently have in order to safely protect the occupants. My hunch is less than one percent.

Do we want to increase costs for everyone when only __ percent of the structures will be affected during their lifetimes?

[ou48A]

Let's get some hard information into the discussion. Does anyone know how many Oklahoma structures - residential and commercial - exist in Oklahoma, and how many of those sustain structural damage or are destroyed in a year? Multiply by 40 or 50 to get the useful life of a "typical" structure and you'll determine the lifetime chances that a building is significantly affected. I'm not talking about a roof totalled by hail (property damage), this discussion is about constructing to a level above what we currently have in order to safely protect the occupants. My hunch is less than one percent.

Do we want to increase costs for everyone when only __ percent of the structures will be affected during their lifetimes?

Your idea of a 40 or 50 year “useful life of a typical structure” is way off base. Most occupied structures will easily last twice that amount if not much more. As we continue our growth in central Oklahoma the impact from tornadoes will only grow bigger and more costly.
When we are only talking about a few thousand dollars to make an average home significantly stronger its silly to even think we don’t need stronger building codes that have been proven to work in other states.
Shelters are a different topic.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Your idea of a 40 or 50 year “useful life of a typical structure” is way off base. Most occupied structures will easily last twice that amount if not much more.

He is pretty close when you consider "Useful life" not ultimate life. 30-50 years is about the expected function lifespan of the average building constructed today without significant upgrades along the way.

[ou48A]

He is pretty close when you consider "Useful life" not ultimate life. 30-50 years is about the expected function lifespan of the average building constructed today without significant upgrades along the way.

There is a big difference. What is most common is that most home owners will maintain their homes well enough for them to last for one hundred years or more….. Go to other older cities and there are all kinds of examples of very old structures that have been well maintained….
Are you trying to say that we would be any different here in Oklahoma?