Public Transit Symposium

[andrew3077]

Hey, did any of you all go to the Public Transit Symposium hosted earlier this evening? I couldn't make it out but had a few friends who did and enjoyed the talk and were impressed by the turnout.

I was wondering if there was a video of the talks available somewhere.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1233...all_view=posts

[OKCisOK4me]

Sid. ...you didn't jog to the symposium did you? Went upstairs while Shadid was speaking and got a nice pic of the crowd which I posted on Facebook. Met Bob, UP and Betts. Definitely was a nice crowd.

[cagoklahoma]

Unfortunately, the #16 route ends service about the time that thing was supposed to get started. So I did it the old fashioned way -- bummed a ride from a friend.

That is rather funny that there was no public transportation to get people to the Public Transit Symposium.

[Just the facts]

That is rather funny that there was no public transportation to get people to the Public Transit Symposium.

I guess it is like hosting the Urban Sprawl meeting in a suburban hotel. I guess you have to go where the 'sinners' are and if there was pubic transit to the symposium they wouldn't need a symposium.

[betts]

An attendee last night told me about two people who arrived at the airport here to attend a transit meeting and stopped at information to enquire about public transit to downtown. Imagine their surprise when they found there was none.

The most shocking thing I learned during Jarrett Walker's visit is that many of our bus routes run hourly, and that the bus drivers stop at the transit center for up to 15 minutes, have coffee and a little chat before leaving again. Who's going to ride unless they have no choice in that setting?

Personally, since I don't believe police deter crime unless their numbers are overwhelming, and I regularly see a few of Oklahoma City's finest at the downtown Starbucks, I'd like to see that extra money the police are lobbying for spent on transit instead. Our system is an embarrassment.

[OKCisOK4me]

Yeah...I said to a few people, its ironic that we all drove here.

[Just the facts]

Yeah...I said to a few people, its ironic that we all drove here.

Not sure it is ironic but it clearly demonstrates the problem.

[OKCisOK4me]

Not sure it is ironic but it clearly demonstrates the problem.

Well, they laughed.......SO.......apparently, they understood what I was talking about.

[shawnw]

I was wondering if there was a video of the talks available somewhere.

It was a GREAT presentation. Very enlightening. Dr Shadid said something about the presentation being streamed online. Not sure if that also meant it was recorded.

[OKCisOK4me]

Yeah, I wished I could have stayed for the whole thing. I left about 8:35pm. How much longer did Mr. Walker speak and was there a question answer session after that? I hope that the recording--either video or just audio--is available for review.

[shawnw]

I don't think you missed anything. Think that's about when it ended. No Q&A either, but that would be nice in the future.

[Dubya61]

Jarett Walker blogs about his visit here: Human Transit: oklahoma city: 450+ turn out to talk about transit
While the whole blog entry is worth reading, here's the lead in.

In the two years that I've been on the public lecture circuit, I've talked with audiences in major cities all over North America. *Usually, these have been public events, well-promoted through both social and conventional media. *I've done such events in big transit-friendly cities like Washington DC, San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver, places where you'd expect transit to be a popular topic.
But the biggest crowd I've ever seen was yesterday, in Oklahoma City. *At least 450 people (based on sign in sheets) turned out to*hear both my keynote speech and some constructive fire and brimstone from City Councilor (Dr.)*Ed Shadid.*
Oklahoma City has some of the worst figures in America for public health outcomes such as obesity. Possibly related, it also appears to have the lowest level of transit service.

[betts]

I would expect that the worse transit is in a city, the higher the turnout. People who are happy with their transit system would have no reason to attend a meeting on transit.

[ljbab728]

I'm not quite sure how he relates the low numbers of transit riders to obesity. How does riding in public transit benefit health over riding in an automobile other than you might have to walk from your home to catch transit? I think that is stretching the point. If he was talking about walking or biking to work I would buy that.

[ljbab728]

It's been shown in studies that transit riders are slightly healthier and yeah, you nailed it. It is because you tend to walk several more blocks a day. That adds up.

Part of it too is just the way transit can change your behavior. Especially if you go completely carless. But even if not, you get used to seeing distances differently. You may not drive 8 blocks to get where you are going because you know it will only take you about 10 minutes so you'll walk instead. Those are the types of small, but useful changes in a person's activity that contribute to apparently healthier outcomes for the transit rider.

I agree that it could have an affect but doubt it has a serious influence, as he implies, on the obesity in OKC. If someone drives downtown to work or takes transit there is likely no significant difference in how far they might need to walk after they arrive. In fact, a driver might have to walk further.

[blangtang]

I didn't attend this simpo, but its turning into a good discussion about what the hell OKC is doing regarding transit.

here's what I've gathered:

-most of the people who attended drove there

-most of the people who use public transit weren't present

-transit "hobbyists" and transit "enthusiasts" dominate the streetcar route selection process

-there may be some legal challenges over civil rights and how the public loot is spent- i admit I'm clueless on this front-it sounds like the bus system is being neglected in favor of developing a fancy shmancy trolly for the upwardly mobile to parade about downtown

At least there is discussion,a big improvement from the past situation. I'd like to hear from others.

[ljbab728]

-there may be some legal challenges over civil rights and how the public loot is spent- i admit I'm clueless on this front-it sounds like the bus system is being neglected in favor of developing a fancy shmancy trolly for the upwardly mobile to parade about downtown

At least there is discussion,a big improvement from the past situation. I'd like to hear from others.

Yes, it sounds like your correct in part at least. LOL

[blangtang]

Hey I'm glad we agree- next time try to get "your" and "you're" correct before you go all ad hominem!

[ljbab728]

Hey I'm glad we agree- next time try to get "your" and "you're" correct before you go all ad hominem!

Well sometimes your and you're seem close to the same after midnight. And it's been a long time since I've been ad hominem. LOL

[OKCisOK4me]

I didn't attend this simpo, but its turning into a good discussion about what the hell OKC is doing regarding transit.

here's what I've gathered:

-most of the people who attended drove there

-most of the people who use public transit weren't present

-transit "hobbyists" and transit "enthusiasts" dominate the streetcar route selection process

-there may be some legal challenges over civil rights and how the public loot is spent- i admit I'm clueless on this front-it sounds like the bus system is being neglected in favor of developing a fancy shmancy trolly for the upwardly mobile to parade about downtown

At least there is discussion,a big improvement from the past situation. I'd like to hear from others.

This is what I gather based upon your post and the possibility of Mr. Walker not having held a "simpo" have we had actual transportation:

-the event would not have existed

-most of the people would have used bus/streetcar transportation to arrive

-most of the people who arrived via the aforementioned modes of transportation were present

-because a central district of mass transportation exists, it's easier to grow outward. A flower doesn't bloom from the edges

-Mr. Walker stated that all modes of public transportation work off of each other. Just because we're vying for streetcar doesn't mean we want to forget about bus service.

That's what I got out of it. Next...

[betts]

But it is one thing to say we don't want to ignore the bus system. It is another thing to design a system that has no intention of improving or complimenting the bus system. The route is really a perfect example of how early this process veered from "how can we improve transit in OKC?". There is no obvious consideration to the current routes and no clear objective to enhance them or compliment them. It's a new route that competes with bus routes. How does that help our bus service?

Do we really need to help our existing bus system when many people think the current system is almost fatally flawed? What we need to do is revamp our entire design. If we make the streetcar respond to the bus system, since it can't be moved once built, then we're saying we think the current system is fine. Rather, once the streetcar is built, change bus routes to respond to the streetcar.

What we really need, IMO, is both. We need a popular, functional streetcar line AND a drastically improved bus system. We also need to be looking longer term at commuter rail, and perhaps what we all need to be promoting is an RTA (Regional Transit Authority), and a dedicated funding source. We've done wonders with the zoo and their dedicated sales tax monies. I'm not going to suggest that their dedicated funding be given to transit, as I think that many people in this town would pick the zoo over transit. But, similarly, a dedicated funding source would allow us to improve the bus system and begin working on commuter rail before we absolutely need it, rather than waiting until it's absolutely necessary.

[soonerguru]

But it is one thing to say we don't want to ignore the bus system. It is another thing to design a system that has no intention of improving or complimenting the bus system. The route is really a perfect example of how early this process veered from "how can we improve transit in OKC?". There is no obvious consideration to the current routes and no clear objective to enhance them or compliment them. It's a new route that competes with bus routes. How does that help our bus service?

What "bus system" exists that needs to be complemented? Seriously. We don't have a "bus system." We have at best a sop to receive federal funding. We do not have a functional big-city bus system. It is a joke. There's no reason to delay developing a functioning inner-city streetcar system. Doing so will not disrupt our bus system, because the "system" we have now sucks and needs to be scrapped and redesigned in toto.

Your comments have rhetorical flourish but zero substance. You act as if a functional streetcar system will damage our bus system when in fact our bus system could not be worse.

Why not rebrand transit to attract new ridership and then develop a bus system that complements and expands it?

[RodH]

One of the arguments made for streetcars is the more permanent nature of their routes versus bus routes. Given that, it seems more sensible to me to adjust the bus routes to the streetcar route as opposed to fitting the street car route to the current bus routes. The current bus routes were not configured with a consideration of a non-existent streetcar. I believe that we can gain a more effective transit system if bus routes are reconfigured after the streetcar route is determined.

[Hutch]

One of the arguments made for streetcars is the more permanent nature of their routes versus bus routes. Given that, it seems more sensible to me to adjust the bus routes to the streetcar route as opposed to fitting the street car route to the current bus routes. The current bus routes were not configured with a consideration of a non-existent streetcar. I believe that we can gain a more effective transit system if bus routes are reconfigured after the streetcar route is determined.

Exactly. Why in the world would anyone layout a permanent, fixed guideway rail system based on avoiding duplication of a poorly designed bus system. That's intellectual madness. Even Councilmember Ed Shadid's hired bus transit consultant understands that basic transit planning concept.

[betts]

Sure. If wiped the slate clean and started fresh though we'd still have heavy service to places like HSC. And with a bus system using a central hub, this means you have many buses going to the same place. This is that efficiency that a short, but frequent line can solve. Streetcar isn't a hub or a spine. Show me a system in the world that considers it as such. Rather, you will see stretches of rail where you have high demand and you want to either alleviate crowding or consolidate routes (effectively adding lots of 'extra' minutes to all those routes).

Once you see buses starting to coalesce around major destinations, those stops become very good considerations for BRT solutions if they are commuter driven, or some kind of urban rail solution. A streetcar should solve an existing problem in your transit system. And not just 'attract people who don't want to ride the bus'. Right now, nothing has been proposed that solves high value problem in our network. We don't have crowding or redundancy (or even demand) issues along the proposed route. Which means it is simply assumed that a streetcar will cause these things to eventually happen. Why spend money to build a system that is only barely helpful? I'd rather see the money be spent to solve a current problem. One of those is how silly it is to get to HSC from the metro and how many minutes and buses we are consuming to do so. Streetcar can fix that.

Edit: Houston is a good example of this type of thinking and now after running a successful line, they are moving toward expansion with support of the community.

Let's examine a streetcar route to the Health Sciences Center:

Who goes to the Health Sciences Center and when do they go? People work there, but I would guess you have no more than 50 to 100 people who work at the HSC who live in Deep Deuce or Legacy. Throw in a few more who live in Midtown. When do they go there? They go at 7-8 a.m. and they leave at 4 to 6 p.m. Very few people who work a night shift could use any form of public transit easily. Then, we have the people who go to the Health Sciences Center for appointments. They usually have appointments anytime from 8:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. and can expect to get out by 6 p.m. at the latest. How many of those live in SoSA, Midtown, downtown or Deep Deuce? Not many. Why do we have the number of people going to the HSC from downtown that we do? Because we drag them all to the bus transfer center no matter where they're coming from. But, how many people actually ride to the HSC daily even doing that? Certainly not enough numbers to overwhelm the existing bus, as I see people getting on and off the bus at the Health Sciences Center. A busy bus drops off 10 people. You could throw in a few more people who go to the ER at night on the bus, but since anytime you go to an ER after 5, you could logically assume you wouldn't be out before the bus stops running. So, I would guess the bus is not utilized by many people going to the HSC in the evenings. There might be a few more people who ride there to their night shift, but I suspect it's low. If you ran a bus every 15 minutes, you might pick up a few more riders to the HSC, but again, the majority of workers there would ride twice a day, with a few people going to appointments sprinkled in.

Now, let's look at other times those people might ride the streetcar. Everyone talks about lunch. Since I work there, I know that the majority of people who work there have no more than an hour for lunch, some less. If you have a streetcar that goes to the bus transfer center, where can you go in an hour? The Art Museum Cafe and a couple other restaurants close by are your only options. Once you get to the transfer center, you're not within walking distance in that time frame to Midtown, nor, even if there's a stop on Walnut are you within walking distance to Bricktown if you have to walk back and forth, eat and ride the streetcar to and from your stop. So, a streetcar that stops at the bus transfer center is valueless as lunch transit. Let's say we add the people who are staying at the Embassy Suites to the mix. We have 100 to 200 people staying there nightly. But again, you're expecting a visitor to know that if they take the streetcar, they can get off on Walnut and 4th and walk down to Bricktown or they take it to the bus transfer center and walk the 6 to 8 blocks to Midtown. That's a long walk in an unknown direction if you don't know the city well. So, the volume of ridership will concentrate at two times: early morning and 4 to 6 p.m. with a few people scattered in between. I would expect it to run almost empty between those two times and afterwards. So, what have we accomplished that increasing frequency on a bus that runs between the bus transfer center and the HSC during the morning and going home hours wouldn't?

The problem with current transit to the Health Sciences Center is the bus transfer center. Why funnel everyone into it? You're creating artificial demand for the route by doing so in one sense and reducing demand in another, as if you had a bus running down 13th St. regularly, as well as other buses on a north-south grid system, it would be easy to change from a north-south bus to one on 13th to get to the Health Sciences Center. A grid system might well increase ridership to the Health Sciences Center, as many of the people who work and use the HSC for health care do not live near the bus transfer center or the 4th St. route. Very few of those people have time to ride to the bus transfer center and sit and wait for transit to the HSC, but they might have time to take two buses on a grid system.

The Health Sciences Center functions much better as a second route than a primary route. If you have a route that connects Heritage Hills, Mesta Park and Midtown to the CBD, Core to Shore, Bricktown and Deep Deuce you've markedly increased the number of neighborhoods and jobs the streetcar serves. There will be people living in Core to Shore before we know it. I'd move there in a heartbeat if the were housing options along the park and with the school going in, I'm not the only person who thinks that, I'm sure. You now serve the many hotels that are going in in Bricktown. With appropriate parking garages, you create park and ride options for people visiting any area along the route, for people going to Thunder and Barons games, people going to events in the parks, going for an evening out in Bricktown or Midtown. If you then add a line to the Health Sciences Center, people who live in Mesta Park and Heritage Hills can easily, because of the rapidity of travel on a streetcar, transfer at 4th St. to take the streetcar over to the HSC. People can stay at hotels in Bricktown if they've got family or business at the HSC, and don't only have the Embassy Suites as an option. But, if they're staying at the Embassy Suites, they can easily take the streetcar to Bricktown or Midtown to have lunch or dinner. If you're working at the HSC, you have a chance of getting to Midtown or Bricktown quickly enough to eat lunch in your allotted time frame (still a stretch, but not impossible now). People who live in neighborhoods around the HSC can get to jobs anywhere in the CBD, Bricktown or Midtown. Extend that HSC line to the Capitol and you've increased access for a lot of people there too.

Then, if you move on to economic development, which should be in the discussion, a route to the HSC has very little economic development impact. The majority of the route has buildings on it and there are slready plans for much of the empty space that it would pass. I don't think economic development is the primary reason to build a streetcar, but it's impact is still valuable to a city that needs its core improved. The area traversed by some variant of the existing proposed route has a lot more economic development potential.